A smaller variant of the sub offered to India,but with 2 extra VLS tubes!!!!
Posted on 07/26/2005 3:23:53 PM PDT by jb6
MOSCOW, July 26 (RIA Novosti, Alexei Berezin) - Construction on the first fourth-generation diesel-electric submarine for the Russian Navy, Kronstadt, begins Thursday in St. Petersburg.
Fleet Admiral Vladimir Kuroyedov, commander-in-chief of the Russian Navy, said submarines from the new project, coded 677, would have a number of advantages.
"It will be much more difficult to spot them and the submarines will be equipped with state-of-the-art weaponry," Kuroyedov said.
The production of the pilot submarine for the project began in 1997.
"It is supposed to be commissioned by 2006 after it passes a whole set of tests. Submarines under this project will be commissioned and put into service in all Russian fleets," Kuroyedov said.
Aren't diesel subs very loud and easily detectable under water?
I hear they are coming up with an updated high button shoe and black and white hdtv. Great step backwards.
the first test will be the hotline to the white house to ensure a rapid response for rescue when it sinks.
They are VERY quiet under water, they just run on battery power then. Much quieter than a nuclear that has a reactor going the whole time.
The downside is they have to surface more often and carry diesel fuel.
No and no.
The latest generation are very, very quiet. Remember, the nuc boats have to have machinery running all the time - these critters don't.
Very credible threat.
LVM
LOL...
I assume you realize they don't run the diesel underwater?!?
I can see it now... "Boris.. it sure is getting smokey down here..perhaps we should trim the fuel injectors?"
With the advent of new battery technology, I suspect they can run a LONG time on electric (underwater) and pop up to recharge when necessary.
Daggone, I believe we stopped building diesel subs back in the 60's didn't we? Why build something with a limited fuel supply and limits on how long before you have to surface to recharge. They are quiet while on batteries, but not undetectable by any means. I'm at a complete loss as to why they'd wanna go retro with thier subs.
Nuke subs are expensive and the Russians have had there share of disasters with their nuclear fleet. Better for them to go with tried and true technology that can be produced cheaply and sold to other countries.
Also, an effective submarine needs to be able to sink a carrier. Stealth would be more important than long-range submersibility in this regard.
You never heard of a snorkel?
Stepping boldly in the 1950's...
BFD.
You might want to do some research into this.
We, without a doubt, make the best nuc boats.
When was the last time we made a diesel boat?
I doubt a diesel would be going after a boomer. Think shore defense, shallow and noisy.
I did not say they were going to kick our ass, I said they were / will be a credible threat. Ask a threat analyst, not "some relative on a boat".
Our nuc boats were designed for deep water operations. Our nuc boats cost about 3 TWC's GNP to build. Diesel's are a dime a dozen, compared. Care to rethink this statement........
"A few silent diesel boats will do some damage, before we trace and sink them the next day."
You do the math.
Disclaimer: I'm not a defense analyst, but I did sleep somewhere last night.
LVM
Point taken as to the expense, but if it is still detectable then......?
>>They are most likely developing them for Columbian cocaine dealers.
Or the Chinese.
These aint for Rooskie cosumption...but for those who
have lots of diesel fuel on hand
Well, if Russia (or China five years on) can afford to build a dozen quiet Diesels to each new nuclear sub for the West, then all they have to do is make sure that a high percentage of those diesels have nuclear missiles and we can never be sure of wiping their strike capacity prior to launch. The old Russian Kilos have been enough of a headache for western planners and these will undoubtedly better.
Plus, never forget the old adage - quantity has a quality all its own...
All the more reason to bring back the nuclear-armed ASROC
What's that? I'm a novice?
Actually the ones to really worry about are those with air-independent propulsion (AIP)systems. The first of these next generation boats are just building (in Germany, IIRC).
Basically its a completely closed circuit (fuel and air) motor that can run all the time (like a nuke boat) making it very fast surfaced or underwater. Speed is for getting onto and off of station (or the projected intercept point of the target). Oncce there, as long as the fuel lasts, it has as much underwater loitering endurance as a nuke boat (keep batteries charged, make air and electricity). Limiter is size; ocean going boat equals big fuel supply equals big boat. That plus cost makes most suggested AIP designs small coastal subs. Can't match the nuke boats for power in a relatively compact space.
IMHO the next major war involving subs will find the ocean full of sound emitters. (It going to be just H**l to be a whale.) Being small (or medium or big) and silent won't be nearly as useful as being able to get into a firing position and get a shot (or shots) off and escape before the counteratack occurs. Victory will go to those who can best identify their own vessels and kill the rest. On that premise, the US will dominate due to its superior collection, networking and analysis systems. Not to mention the US Navy's superior sub crews and ships.
Anti-Submarine Rocket.
Anyways, the key point that is of great help to us is that our training is FAR beyond what the sub training of potential foe nations (eg China) is. However, if China ever got a hold of enough modern (i.e AIP plus quieting tech equipped) diesel subs, and the Chinese managed to get their training honed, then basically coastal/littoral waters would be effectively denied to our ships.
Modern diesel subs are a very credible threat. All that is required is for a foe nation to get sufficient numbers of them, and then have effective training of the crews. The training doesn't have to be super-effective, just sufficient to have the crews know how to take advantage of littoral waters and thus maximize the quiet nature of diesel subs in such areas. That would be enough to allow such a nation to sink, at least, one or so USN ships. And then the foe nation would only have to wait until the Liberal left in the US turns against the war once news of hundreds of dead US sailors hits the MSM (by the way part of China's assymetrical warfare relies on segments of the US general populace and political wings not wanting to stomach the loss of, let's say, 2 Navy ships with all hands on deck). Anyways, diesel subs can be quite effective if they are in littoral waters.
By the way ....when i say 'sunk' i meant technically ....like an electronic 'kill.' Not an actual sinking.
Cheers. I've been taking a look at them via google now and they look interesting.
Oh.. and if you have a snorkel, you are not *under* water.
No biggie. I just got a laugh out of the concept of running at 200 feet with the diesel powering the boat.
I have plenty of confidence in the USN. They will do what is necessary to do away with this threat. They are the best for a reason IMHO.
So do I. The USN is not the best for naught. There was even some training where our ships had exercises with allied nations that had modern D-E subs, and I am sure with the USNs increasing foray into littoral capability in the future that D-E sub negation will be at the forefront. With that said modern D-E subs are a credible threat. However for that threat to be maximized it requires the foe nation to have modern D-E subs (especially those with AIP), to optimize their use around littoral waters, and to have a training regimen that allows the crew to utilize the machine in its environment to the optimum. Luckily nations like China have not yet achieved perfection in such matters (particularly training), although China is focusing itself on crew training (according to some reports training several crews around the clock, even before submarines have been purchased for them). Anyways, the USN is the best and with their new focus on littoral engagements I am sure the issue of modern D-E subs is at the forefront.
More true words were never spoken. Whatever the naval threat, I trust the USN, not the politicians, to see that "all is well".
The Russian P-677/Amur class D/Es are built with AIP technology in mind.The Russians most probably will refit a AIP system after a retrofit to save construction costs.The Russian 'Krystal' liquid oxygen based AIP reportedly offers an underwater endurance of about 10 days.Not great when compared to N-boats,but is a quantum leap for D/E subs & will prove decisive in a limited conflict like in the Taiwan straits.The German Siemens fuel cell based AIP is the safest & most efficient with an endurance of over 20 days.
PS-the first subs to feature modern AIP were Swedish Gotland class boats,which entered service in the late 90s.Even Pakistan got a French AIP system in 2003.
In 2003,The Russian Rubin CKB naval design bureau offered the Indian navy a "modified" variant of the AMUR D/E sub with AIP & 8 vertical launch tubes for the Indian navy's proposal for 2 classes for Diesel electric subs.The significant fact here is the 8 VLS tubes which the Russians said could be used to launch heavy duty supersonic anti-ship or land attack missiles like the Yakhont/Brahmos without compromising ASW/ASUW capability.The Sub had a torpedo/missile load of 18 weapons from it's torpedo tubes.When you add 8 cruise missiles to it,you get a sub offering the armament of early LA class boats(without VLS) & British Trafalgar class boats,at a quarter of the cost.If I wanted to try take on a carrier,such a capability would be more than useful.Thankfully Russia hasn't offered this class to China...yet.
A smaller variant of the sub offered to India,but with 2 extra VLS tubes!!!!
One last item with respect to the snorkel. If it fails (i.e. sticks closed so that the diesels are taking their air from the inside of the sub) and you don't realize it quickly enough, the crew dies.
IIRC, the Chinese recently just lost a diesel sub crew and some VIPs to this. Sub was found dead on the surface with negative pressure on the hatches. The diesels (and these are big diesels) had used up all the air inside the hull then shut off. Crummy way to die.
That's just not true. Late generation Russian military hardware is every bit our equal, and in some case, exceeds our capability.
On the upside: Russian submariners will no longer glow in the dark and they won't be sinking uncontrolled nuclear waste dumps all over the world.
They are probably going to sell them to the terrorist or some other despots.
I imagine that if you were to build one using NiMH battery banks, you could make one helluva efficient, long-range vessel with much less weight and maintenance. Maintaining Lead-Acid under salt-water has to be a job all by itself.
First, I highly doubt a terrorist organization is going to field a blue water navy, to much GI Joe cartoons. As for other nations, the Russians also arm such despotic regimes as the SOUTH Koreans, Indians, Israelies, Indonesians and Malaysians. They've also offered their arms to Taiwan and the Phillipines.
Exactly the opposite. Diesel/electric subs are harder to detect than nucs are when they're running on batteries.
Please provide details of that claim. Since they sell everything they make, I would like to buy some of this superior technology...
I'm not sure it's established that Russia is going to keep all of her subs,,,they are not only cheaper to build, they are cheaper to sell....
"quiet boats for sale at a reasonable price"...
I've been thinking for some time that USN needs to get more mileage out of their submarine budget, and that building D-E boats on license from the Japanese or the Germans would go a long way to relieving the pressing need for more numbers in the American submarine fleet, in situations where a good submarine, not necessarily one with indefinite endurance, is needed to project power, collect intelligence, run covert operations, or simply provide a presence.
Even a small nuclear design like the French-designed Rubis type (about 2700 tons, or about the same as an oceangoing diesel boat), while much less quiet (and therefore less capable) than a later 638-class American boat, could perform numbers of duties where a submarine with a lot of endurance, not necessarily a really good submarine with a lot of endurance, is needed.
The Japanese designs are supposed to be very good, and the Australian Collins type, actually a European (Kockums) design, has very long range like the Japanese boats. They all have limited endurance, but they're improving steadily. I don't know anything about whether they are very quiet-running on diesels, but diesels running on batteries are typically the quietest boats in the ocean. Battery-design improvements are behind a lot of the diesel boats' ability to stay in the pool with the nukey boats, and the Japanese are said to be really excellent in this regard.
If a new design, I assume it would be post-Soviet design and construction.
They're also still building Akulas, or something like them? Those were their best boats, about 12 years ago, along with the Alfas. The late-model Charlie/Victor types were an older, 60's design but still a threat.
You certainly got that right. Carry on, mister.
The Lada/P-677 are post Soviet Union stuff for certain & the keel for the first vessel,the Sankt Petersburg was laid in 97 or so.The Amur is the export variant of the Lada.Some internet articles said that the second boat of the class was offered to India,which didn't show much interest back then.The Amurs have a lot of commonality with the Kilos esp on improved sensors & armaments,but these boats are far more smaller(The heaviest being around 1,600 tonnes),far more automated(34 crew vs 52 crew) & are more decked out for the littoral role.The Amur comes in 3 variants actually-including a mini-sub variant for special ops,a 1,000 t variant & 1,650 tonne SSK variant.
The Russians are still building improved Akulas,but reportedly those are supposed to be leased to India.Their new class of SSNs is the Severodvinsk class,but it's progress is still unclear.It reportedly has 8 VLS tubes for anti-ship/land attack missiles.The IN's indegnious nuclear submarine programme will probably have facets of the Severodvinsk.
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