Posted on 07/27/2005 6:46:10 AM PDT by Halfmanhalfamazing
Good point.
"You twisted what I said. I said that "democracy is defined by freedoms"...not that "democracy defines those freedoms" (though that can also be said in the broadest of definitions)."
I most certainly do not wish to argue with you because what you write in essence is what I would write concerning what constitues Islamic law (Sharia). Obviously, Sharia playes a central role in all Islamic cultures. The structure of the law is that of civil law rather then common law as say is practiced in the US or England. And we also understand that not only the Hadith (written traditions of Muhamaad that describe much of the interpretations of what is in the Qu'ran), but other written documents also go in hand to allow a particular sect of Islam to further define just what will constitute it's set of laws. In this case the majority and minorty, Shiite and Sunni sects dominate Iraq, and they both pretty much agree on how the Sharia's should be defined.
I did not intend to "twist" your definition of what constitutes a democracy. At least it was not intentional.
I maintain, they have already in it's raw form demonstrated the democratic process. They held a free country wide election. So to me, by having the choice of voting for a given party (obviously there where dozens of them to choose from), they participated in the democratic process. That is what I was trying to bring out.
Do lets us consider, the Kuwait, as one example is "adjusting" it's traditional held views on the rights of women. They are free to dress as they like, they can drive cars, they have an equal vote, they can hold government cabinet positions, etc.. In short, they have liberalized what is acceptable. Now as we both understand. Kuwait is primarily Sunni and Shiite. Why has their interpretations of their Sharia been modified to provide more individual freedoms then other Islamic countries? Their laws are not as immutable as some of us would believe. I sense you have studied various forms of Islam as relating to various parts of the globe. So surely in retrospect you may understand, that Islam in it's extremly and often perverse, down right evil (Satan rules the roost), also can be found to vary widely depending on what country one looks into.
Latly, I do not believe Islam in any form has a root goodness to it. I have spent years on and off doing low level studies into it, and realize a lot more then just our standard "submit in the name of the god allah the moon (Sin) good black rock) approach. Satan was very clever in how he introduced this cult into existance. But then I could also talk about Shinto and other extreme military based religons as almost in some ways being duplicative of what we see in Islam. At any rate, I am not saying all is going to be well in Iraq. But if it becomes stable, and we gain a base of operation (small footprint SF and spook shops), in the ME, to keep Iran, Syria, and others in check etc., and the ME can be convinced to further crack down on all forms of Islmaic terrorism, then perhaps the POTUS's main goals would have been achived. The jury is obviously still out to lunch.
Satan was very clever in how he introduced this cult into existence.
Always a pleasure to chat with a "gentleman" about such serious issue.
Thx, DS.
"Satan was very clever in how he introduced this cult into existence. Always a pleasure to chat with a "gentleman" about such serious issue."
My pleasure. One thing for sure, we all want our brave men and women to come home, for some very well deserved R&R. They serve with honor, dignity, and purpose. I salute them all. And pray for them daily. No response required, I am sure you do the same.
No Iraqi constitution will be optimal.
What is?
Thanks for the warning, Blzbba. I know, and said it anyway. Anyone who starts on me had better be advised that I love my Country, my President, and ALL of our brave Military. I have been a conservative Republican all my life, which has been quite a long one. One of my sons served proudly in the Navy. I supported the Vietnam war to the end.
I just heard on Rush that we are making plans to leave in the middle of 2006. It's not the first time, so this may be true. (I think it's Roger who is subbing.)
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.
Islam: "I have spent years on and off doing low level studies into it,"
I hope you've showered!!
"I hope you've showered!! ". Heh heh heh. Sometimes I forget. Hmmmm, been a week.............
What you should have said, so what, perhaps you know absolutely nothing, and you probably would not be far off.
^^^^^^^^^^but all women will have little to no rights.^^^^^^^^^^
Actually, there are already women in Iraq's government. Representation is an important of women's rights..... no?
You are welcome to your opinion but all ex-muslims disagree with you. They say that Muslims, particular women, are trapped and abused.
Check this link http://faithfreedom.org/ for some eye opening stories. Or Google Hirsi Ali, the woman and former Muslim, who is a member of the Dutch parliament. Read her story and I think you come to a different conclusion.
I certainly agree that we ought not force our way of life on other countries, but that isn't the issue here. Islam is a Satanic cult, not a choice. The goal of Islam is to establish a world caliphate, where Islam is the only religion.
^^^^^^^^^^^In fact this draft, which got published to the Iraqi people, has many of them protesting vigorously in support of human rights.^^^^^^^^^^
Interesting how people view islamic law as anti-human rights. Al Qaeda has done wonders for their religion.
But naturally, being as the media(noting your second link) doesn't put emphasis upon the protest, neither does anybody else.(including fellow freepers)
Protesting is so significant in the Middle east(at least I think so) but nobody has made the connection with the universal human need to be free as the driving force behind these protests. IMHO, we've already won the war on terror. It's a matter of watching this sentiment continue to spread.
^^^^^^^^^But, this is the third time in a row the article has FReepers instantly ready to give up on the whole Iraq thing. I can only imagine what it's doing to less politically informed readers.^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I for one am not willing to just give up. But I do see how you're correct. The ones who are so willing to give up and throw their arms into the air are dooming us to failure. I hope they don't wonder why the liberal minority in the senate is so effective.
The fact that we've set up a democracy is all we can do. It's up to them to grab the steering wheel and drive the ship. If they become a theocracy that's their choice ultimately, and I *don't* think that in any way invalidates what our soldiers have achieved. They did their jobs, and have done it superbly.
I agree 100%.
^^^^^^^^^No Iraqi constitution will be optimal. What is?^^^^^^^^^^
A democratic nation in the heart of the middle east. How they drive their ship is up to them to decide.
That's all we can hope and ask for. Anything more and we become the imperialists that liberals accuse us of being.
It would help if you discovered the point of this article and thread. We are not talking about now, we are talking about their new constitution, which will replace what they have, now.
^^^^^^^^^^^Whatever happened to the concept of VICTORY ???^^^^^^^^^
The fact that we're seriously talking about troop reductions is victory. We set up the democracy. They run it.
^^^^^^^^^As inscrutable as the Japanese were a few decades of occupation turned them into good little capitalists ! ! !^^^^^^^^
You're assuming the same won't happen in Iraq. Nostradamus, is that you?
I hope you aren't forgetting lebanon, afghanistan, egypt, and other nations in the area that are making strides in the correct direction. You don't think these are all just isolated incedents, do you?
As another poster pointed out, and I responded with "as far as I'm concerned we've already won the war on terror".....
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1446487/posts
Women protesting in the streets? You realize what will happen if these women were fired based simply on being women?
We should be giving the Iraqis more credit than we are giving. I trust free people to do the right thing.
So true. So true.
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