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Boeing's F-15 tries to stay aloft
St. Louis Post-Dispatch ^ | July 30, 2005 | Tim McLaughlin

Posted on 07/31/2005 9:26:36 AM PDT by Righty_McRight

Boeing Co.'s St. Louis-made F-15 Eagle used to be the sure thing of fighter jet procurement. Now the aging fighter is just a long shot in its own country.

Jim Albaugh, chief executive of Boeing Integrated Defense Systems, says the odds are against the U.S. Air Force signing a multiyear deal to buy more F-15s. That assessment isn't surprising as the Pentagon prepares to spend billions of dollars over the next few decades for the F/A-22 Raptor and F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, two planes under development by Lockheed Martin Corp.

Still, some influential members of Congress say the Air Force needs a hedge against production delays or cost overruns. They believe the F-15 can play an important role in keeping the country's dwindling inventory of fighter jets at a healthy level during the transition to the Raptor and JSF.

One potential scenario has the Air Force buying anywhere from 100 to 144 F-15s as insurance against a slip in the JSF program, according to people familiar with informal discussions that started about two years ago.

That would be a boon for the F-15 program. Production of the storied combat plane will end in 2008, unless Boeing wins more orders. St. Louis defense workers have made more than 1,500 of the F-15s. The first F-15A flight was made in 1972.

Currently, the most hopeful market for more F-15s is Singapore, which could make a decision as early as next month on whether to take the Boeing plane or a French-made fighter in a competition worth an estimated $1 billion.

(Excerpt) Read more at stltoday.com ...


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Extended News; Government
KEYWORDS: boeing; duncanhunter; f15; f22; f35; ids; jsf; miltech; raptor; usaf
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1 posted on 07/31/2005 9:26:37 AM PDT by Righty_McRight
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To: Righty_McRight

2 posted on 07/31/2005 9:28:03 AM PDT by martin_fierro (< |:)~)
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To: martin_fierro
Well perhaps they could make a civilian variant
3 posted on 07/31/2005 9:32:25 AM PDT by al baby (Father of the Beeber)
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To: Righty_McRight

How does the JSF stack up against our current inventory, excluding the Raptor?


4 posted on 07/31/2005 9:37:07 AM PDT by bill1952 ("All that we do is done with an eye towards something else.")
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To: Righty_McRight

The F-15 has alot of credentials -- it would not hurt to have more. It is cheap to build, very reliable, good multi-mode fighter/bomber --- just a good airplane. Heck, look how long the F-4 Phantom lasted us.... :-)


5 posted on 07/31/2005 9:39:41 AM PDT by EagleUSA
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To: Righty_McRight

The design is 30 years old and should be scrapped immediately and never flown again. I can't believe they're still putting this thing up in the air.

Oh, sorry, I thought this was a space shuttle thread.



6 posted on 07/31/2005 9:42:56 AM PDT by SlowBoat407 (A living affront to Islam since 1959)
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To: Righty_McRight
Since Boeing merged with Rockwell which had merged with North American, maybe Boeing can also build some P-51s or some F-86s for the Air Force.

The real question is "Does the Air Force have enough F-15Es to use as tactical bombers until the JSF is in production?" Since the F-22 is being fielded, I wouldn't even think about building the F-15 as a fighter anymore.

7 posted on 07/31/2005 9:44:00 AM PDT by KarlInOhio (Bork should have had Kennedy's USSC seat and Kelo v. New London would have gone the other way.)
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To: bill1952

JSF has greater stealth properties than our current fighters, but it has a smaller payload. I'm not sure about range.


8 posted on 07/31/2005 9:45:12 AM PDT by Righty_McRight
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Comment #9 Removed by Moderator

To: Righty_McRight
And so it begins. (chuckle)

See ya, JSF.
10 posted on 07/31/2005 9:53:59 AM PDT by Pukin Dog (Sans Reproache)
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To: Commander Salamander

Your image post got hosed by its server.

Clear your cache and see.


11 posted on 07/31/2005 10:02:28 AM PDT by martin_fierro (< |:)~)
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To: Righty_McRight
That would be a boon for the F-15 program. Production of the storied combat plane will end in 2008, unless Boeing wins more orders. St. Louis defense workers have made more than 1,500 of the F-15s. The first F-15A flight was made in 1972.

That's about 45 planes a year. Not a lot.

12 posted on 07/31/2005 10:02:59 AM PDT by Junior (Just because the voices in your head tell you to do things doesn't mean you have to listen to them)
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To: Pukin Dog
*ping* Hey. It's not about this baby

but maybe you have a thought on my post 4?

13 posted on 07/31/2005 10:33:04 AM PDT by bill1952 ("All that we do is done with an eye towards something else.")
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To: martin_fierro
Your image post got hosed by its server.

That's pretty clever.

14 posted on 07/31/2005 10:36:25 AM PDT by SC Swamp Fox (Aim small, miss small.)
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To: SC Swamp Fox
I swear, it was unintentional.

(what exactly about it was clever?)

15 posted on 07/31/2005 10:40:40 AM PDT by martin_fierro (< |:)~)
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To: Pukin Dog
See ya, JSF.

Still flogging that dead horse?

16 posted on 07/31/2005 10:47:04 AM PDT by PAR35
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To: Commander Salamander
You are paying Earthlink good money for webspace and access.

Sucks they don't let you use it as you see fit eh?

17 posted on 07/31/2005 10:47:45 AM PDT by kAcknor (Don't flatter yourself.... It is a gun in my pocket.)
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To: KarlInOhio
F-15 "Wild Weasel" variant, that's why.

Send them in with the F-22's and there would not even be a trace of opposition.

Personal opinion.
18 posted on 07/31/2005 10:48:13 AM PDT by Mr. Jazzy (Bumper sticker "Martyrs or Marines: Who do YOU think will get the virgins?")
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To: bill1952
I have a self-imposed ban on discussing the JSF, except to repeatedly predict that it will never reach operational status.

It is fruitless to discuss it with some who feel they know better, as their jobs might depend on me being wrong. I'm not, but it will take time for that to be proved.

As an airframe, the JSF has few benefits over current technology. It is not as stealthy as the F-22, barely more maneuverable as your average F-16, and eats so much gas, it cant carry much to the fight. It is not that it is not fuel efficient, its that there just aint nowhere to put much gas.
19 posted on 07/31/2005 10:49:50 AM PDT by Pukin Dog (Sans Reproache)
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To: Pukin Dog

Thanks. I'll remember about your ban. ;^)


20 posted on 07/31/2005 11:11:36 AM PDT by bill1952 ("All that we do is done with an eye towards something else.")
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To: martin_fierro

Substituting that annoying red/yellow bar in place of the target image was clever. That is much more effective then a silly little message graphic or a red X.


21 posted on 07/31/2005 11:34:02 AM PDT by SC Swamp Fox (Aim small, miss small.)
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To: Righty_McRight

"Still, some influential members of Congress "

When you see these words, start running.


22 posted on 07/31/2005 11:44:56 AM PDT by nairBResal
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To: Righty_McRight

23 posted on 07/31/2005 11:47:15 AM PDT by Terpfen (Liberals call the Constitution a living document because they enjoy torturing it.)
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To: Righty_McRight; Tijeras_Slim; FireTrack; Pukin Dog; citabria; B Knotts; kilowhskey; cyphergirl; ...

24 posted on 07/31/2005 11:49:34 AM PDT by Aeronaut (2 Chronicles 7:14.)
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To: Pukin Dog
It is not as stealthy as the F-22, barely more maneuverable as your average F-16, and eats so much gas, it cant carry much to the fight. It is not that it is not fuel efficient, its that there just aint nowhere to put much gas.

Do your comments apply to ALL variants of the JSF, or are they limited to the STOVL version?

25 posted on 07/31/2005 11:55:11 AM PDT by Tallguy
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To: Aeronaut
I still like the Tomcat. Maybe it's the movie, but I do like that plane.


26 posted on 07/31/2005 11:57:28 AM PDT by Pusterfuss (You know, doing what is right is easy. The problem is knowing what is right. LBJ)
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To: Aeronaut
Titanium overcast.

Ego Jet.

Successor to the beloved F-111F, RAF Lakenheath, 48 TFW, 493 TFS.
27 posted on 07/31/2005 11:59:00 AM PDT by pad 34 (Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum)
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To: Mr. Jazzy
F-15 "Wild Weasel" variant, that's why.

Unless I miss my guess the "Wild Weasel" mission will be the very first mission assigned to the armed stealth UCAV's like Boeings X-45A. OTOH, it would be a good insurance policy to by another wing of F-15E's. The Echo seems to have all the qualities you want in a strike fighter (bomber, really). Range, payload, weapons-type, some ACM capability...where else are you going to get that? Not the JSF, for sure.

28 posted on 07/31/2005 12:00:30 PM PDT by Tallguy
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To: bill1952; Righty_McRight
How does the JSF stack up against our current inventory, excluding the Raptor?

The JSF is not a single aircraft, but three different aircraft with lots of similar components, but lots more stealth than the planes they replace.

The Air Force version is supposed to provide similar capabilities to both the current F-15 and F-16, including some air to air but lots of air to mud. It's not meant to be overwhelming air superiority, like the F22 is, but it's supposed to hold its own against anything out there.

The Navy version is altered for carrier landings, etc., and is supposed to be on a par with the F18 family.

The Marine variant is a VSTOL to replace the aging Harrier. It is supposed to have the most dramaticly increased flight envelope and weapons capabilities when compared to the AV8 it replaces in this variant.

All of the variants are supposed to be an order of magnitude less expensive to operate over their lifetime than the planes they replace.

Then the Raptor (or Lightening II, as some would have preferred) is supposed to just outfly anything ever dreamed of, short of science fiction.

29 posted on 07/31/2005 12:10:59 PM PDT by Phsstpok (There are lies, damned lies, statistics and presentation graphics, in descending order of truth)
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To: EagleUSA

One has to look at the maintenance cost per flight hour to get a true picture of the Life Cycle Cost of this aircraft.


30 posted on 07/31/2005 12:28:23 PM PDT by NY Attitude (You are responsible for your safety until the arrival of Law Enforcement Officers!)
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To: Tallguy

Re: Wild Weasel: Wasn't there an article recently where the F-18F model was being modified to replace the EA-6B? Seems like the Super Hornet would inherit the Wild Wesel role.


31 posted on 07/31/2005 12:57:33 PM PDT by Dilbert56
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To: Righty_McRight
Buying more F-15s would work against procuring F-22s etc., politically speaking, so it isn't going to be done.
32 posted on 07/31/2005 12:58:22 PM PDT by jordan8
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To: Righty_McRight

If my government was smarter, we should buy up some of these, they're still better than what we have, which is basically 120 or so F-18's in various states of disrepair. But then, that is if my government was smarter.


33 posted on 07/31/2005 1:02:57 PM PDT by Ashamed Canadian (America - please invade us now!)
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To: Dilbert56

Yes, if I remember correctly this ECM variant will be designated F/A-18G.


34 posted on 07/31/2005 1:22:30 PM PDT by Better Dead Than Red (Davis College Republicans (Best Party on Campus))
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To: Righty_McRight

Given the title of this thread I am suprised nobody has posted the pic of the IAF F-15 that managed to make a safe landing after losing an entire wing.


35 posted on 07/31/2005 1:23:52 PM PDT by Better Dead Than Red (Davis College Republicans (Best Party on Campus))
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To: EagleUSA
It is cheap to build

That's funny.

I was at Luke AFB when they recieved the first squadron of Fleagles. I worked on F-4s.

When we requisitioned tools for the aircraft, we saw the price charged. Items such as jack pads were identical for F-4s and F-15s. Yet there was an entirely different set of tools and prices. The F-15 jack pads were many times more expensive than the F-4 jack pads. Yet we were threatened that we must not use F-4 tools on F-15s. We must get a new F-15 tool, and pay the higher price for it.

I know what was going on. MacD was amortizing their development cost. And there were different contracts for different tools, and thus the different prices.

But it's still funny to hear that the F-15 is "cheap".

36 posted on 07/31/2005 2:24:56 PM PDT by narby (There are Bloggers, and then there are Freepers.)
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To: EagleUSA

One of the F15 variants has more thrust than it weighs. It can accelerate going straight up...


37 posted on 07/31/2005 2:34:27 PM PDT by 185JHP ( "The thing thou purposest shall come to pass: And over all thy ways the light shall shine.")
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Comment #38 Removed by Moderator

To: narby

But it's still funny to hear that the F-15 is "cheap"
-----
Relatively speaking, of course. It was engineered from the beginning to be lower-cost modular construction. Even though I did not work on the F-15 airframe, I did see many of the production pictures which showed how fabricated the fuselage sections. Definitely different than the F-4.

We still also have a great work-horse in the F-16 as well. A great little plane that was one of the few projects that ever came in on time and ON BUDGET! General Dynamics was responsible for that one....very rare these days!!!

:-)


39 posted on 07/31/2005 3:16:10 PM PDT by EagleUSA
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One of the F15 variants has more thrust than it weighs. It can accelerate going straight up...

One day way back in 1974 I think it was, I was mowing the backyard near Lambert field in St. Louis.

All of a sudden there was a roar in the sky and I looked up to see 2 pair of afterburners going straight up. Bout ran over my foot with the mower I was so agape. Called pop who worked at MAc who said it was their new Eagle doing a "Zulu" takeoff he called it. I'm sure the guys in the tower enjoyed the show.

My buddy and I later snuck out into the airfield on the departure end where we would lay in the grass and watch the underbellies of jets go over, getting shook all around from the F-4s and F-15s after burners. Man did they shake the winders when they left Lambert.

40 posted on 07/31/2005 4:20:43 PM PDT by spectr17 (What if the Hokey Pokey really is what it's all about?)
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To: Dilbert56
Re: Wild Weasel: Wasn't there an article recently where the F-18F model was being modified to replace the EA-6B? Seems like the Super Hornet would inherit the Wild Wesel role.

EA-18G
http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/military/ea18g/flash.html


41 posted on 07/31/2005 7:34:26 PM PDT by Righty_McRight
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To: Better Dead Than Red
Here ya go...

The Eagle's survivability, excellent performace and combat effectiveness is in no little part due to the sound and robust design, best displayed by an IAF F-15 on May 1st, 1983. On a joint training flight with A-4 Skyhawks, an F-15D collided with a Skyhawk. While the Skyhawk crew had to eject, the Eagle crew managed to land their crippled aircraft, whose entire right wing had been torn off!"

42 posted on 07/31/2005 8:05:04 PM PDT by Mike-o-Matic
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To: spectr17
   All of a sudden there was a roar in the sky and I looked up to see 2 pair of afterburners going straight up.

I was an IT intern at Mac in 1990. I'll always remember that was the summer before Desert Shield because C130s dropped by to pick up all their extra Pegasus engines (used in AV-8B Harriers) for use as spares for Marine birds in the field.

Anyway, at the end of the summer, my boss (who had helped design F-15 components prior to transitioning into IT) set me up with a buddy on the production line for a couple of days of watching 'em build 15s and 18s. I saw a two takeoffs as you described -- I was told that the test pilots did that on just about every first flight.

43 posted on 07/31/2005 8:12:51 PM PDT by Mike-o-Matic
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To: Righty_McRight

Best/worst/too old/whatever.

The F-15 was, quite simply, the most beautiful aircraft ever flown and will hold that title forever. Graceful and elegant, like a swan, it owned the skies for 30 years and still is better than everything except the JSF amd F-22.

And the latter 2 may be more effective, but the F-15 will always be remembered as master of the sky for her day and a beauty forever.

She has some life left, since who can afford her only rivals?


44 posted on 07/31/2005 8:13:14 PM PDT by Shazbot29 (If you paid attention you'd be worried, too!)
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To: Mike-o-Matic
For the record, I found that picture and narrative by Googling. Source site: here.
45 posted on 07/31/2005 8:14:20 PM PDT by Mike-o-Matic
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To: SlowBoat407

The F15's tiles don't seem to fall off quite as often.


46 posted on 07/31/2005 8:18:15 PM PDT by HereInTheHeartland
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To: HereInTheHeartland

Bring one in from 200 miles up and we'll see how it does.

I remember when these puppies made their debut at Langley Air Force Base. I saw one go screaming by a couple hundred feet off the ground, do a couple of barrel rolls, then go ballistic. Awsome sight. All jokes aside, it was and is still a fine machine.


47 posted on 07/31/2005 8:21:30 PM PDT by SlowBoat407 (A living affront to Islam since 1959)
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To: al baby

Time share???


48 posted on 07/31/2005 9:08:40 PM PDT by Atchafalaya (When you're there that's the best!!)
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To: bill1952

Ahhh, a bird of prey.


49 posted on 07/31/2005 9:11:52 PM PDT by Atchafalaya (When you're there that's the best!!)
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To: al baby

Yeah, it would make a dandy crop duster!


50 posted on 07/31/2005 9:16:36 PM PDT by Brofholdonow
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