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An interview with Christopher Hitchens ("Moral and political collapse" of the Left in the US)
Washington Prism.org ^ | June 16, 2005

Posted on 08/05/2005 12:06:43 AM PDT by F14 Pilot

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To: F14 Pilot

Well, Phil Hendrie put it very much like Christopher Hitchens. The left claims they are against fascists, dicatators, religious zealots, bigots, and sexists. So here you have Islamo-fascists meeting every criteria and the left is sitting in a cafe, hating America.


51 posted on 08/05/2005 8:34:08 AM PDT by KC_Conspirator (This space outsourced to India)
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To: Lancey Howard
Hitchens is certainly smart enough to realize that the American left's greed-induced hatred of capitalism and its self-loathing guilt at being American are the factors that trump everything else.

Honest people will disagree, but the mot that William F. Buckley likes to quote (wish I could remember who said it) is worth remembering, that "the problem with capitalism is capitalists, but the problem with socialism is socialism." Hitchens seems to understand that, without giving up the point that (as recent trials have shown) the problem with capitalism is capitalists -- a point made about 250 years ago by Adam Smith.

With capitalism, you always need plenty of honest policemen. Of course, the capitalists you are trying to police (like Leona Helmsley with her famous saying: "Paying taxes is for little people!") will try to buy off the police, so you have to be really cool, really tough, and really alert to the sound of bribes hitting a desk somewhere. About eight years ago, Bo Pilgrim, the chicken tycoon, was videotaped from the gallery strolling around the floor of the Texas senate while it was in session, handing out envelopes with serious money in them, as a "thank-you" to helpful senators who'd just voted him a piece of custom-fit legislation. When the video hit the 10 O'Clock News, the embarrassed senators gave the envelopes back -- but Pilgrim never went to prison or even, so far as I know, had to answer any awkward questions.

Business isn't inherently moral; the values of the marketplace are pre-Judaeo-Christian and are often in conflict with society's ideas about civic conduct. Corporate governance, monopoly, oligopoly and oligopsony, tax evasion, and the drive to dominate competitors, suppliers, employees, and customers will always be a problem with private businesses -- a problem that grows exponentially with the size of the enterprises being policed and their ability to evade, forestall, compromise, and defeat the watchdog agencies charged with their oversight.

52 posted on 08/05/2005 8:48:53 AM PDT by lentulusgracchus ("Whatever." -- sinkspur)
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To: Terabitten

Bono may be honest, however he is an idiot imo.


53 posted on 08/05/2005 9:05:26 AM PDT by subterfuge (Obama, mo mama...er Osama-La bamba, uh, bama...banana rama...URP!---Ted Kennedy)
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To: Lancey Howard
Tks for the bump -- yeah, I'd say Maher must have been hung over and sleeping it off the morning the World Trade Center came down.

If someone declares you his sworn blood-enemy, it isn't necessarily incumbent on you to pay him a visit until he starts messing with you, which I think has been our rule. But when he does, the gloves should come off right away. The idea that declaring you to be anyone's sworn blood enemy should become an unpopular idea.

54 posted on 08/05/2005 9:07:18 AM PDT by lentulusgracchus ("Whatever." -- sinkspur)
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To: snarks_when_bored

Thanks.


55 posted on 08/05/2005 9:08:39 AM PDT by lentulusgracchus ("Whatever." -- sinkspur)
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To: KC_Conspirator
So here you have Islamo-fascists meeting every criteria and the left is sitting in a cafe, hating America.

Pretty telling, isn't it?

56 posted on 08/05/2005 9:10:35 AM PDT by lentulusgracchus ("Whatever." -- sinkspur)
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To: lentulusgracchus
and the drive to dominate competitors, suppliers, employees, and customers will always be a problem with private businesses -- a problem that grows exponentially with the size of the enterprises being policed and their ability to evade, forestall, compromise, and defeat the watchdog agencies charged with their oversight.

And, of course, the brazen shakedown of private businesses by politicians becomes a problem that grows exponentially with the size of government.

By the way, re: your story about Bo Pilgrim. Years ago I remember listening to a radio interview with Gore Vidal who said that his father was a bagman for LBJ - - said he routinely delivered brown paper bags full of cash right to the the man's desk.

57 posted on 08/05/2005 9:21:20 AM PDT by Lancey Howard
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To: F14 Pilot
Hitchens' PING!

Can you put me on this Ping list? Glad to see SOME on the Left get it. Wish he would look straight in the camera once and say "To my fellow Leftists, let me make this perfectly clear. No amount of "foreign aid", mouthing of terrorist propaganda lines or peace vigils will keep you safe. You have ONLY three choices. You can kill these monsters, you can covert to Islam or you can die. The days when you could caterwauling and posturing are gone. You must choice, quickly".
58 posted on 08/05/2005 9:26:19 AM PDT by MNJohnnie ( Iraq is a Terrorist bug hotel, Terrorists go in, they do not come out.)
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To: F14 Pilot

bump!


59 posted on 08/05/2005 9:27:31 AM PDT by Matchett-PI (The very idea of freedom presupposes some objective moral law overarching rulers and ruled alike)
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To: Lancey Howard
So then I take it that you disagree with Bill Mahr who said, "When the terrorists actually nuke New York City, then we should go after them militarily

Bill Mahr is an idiot trying hard to prove he is a complete moron. A man of quite limited intellectual abilities, Mr Mahr should try reading some history of OH...say the 1930s. Even a superficial knowledge of history should tell Mr Mahr why his is one of the most absolutely stupid statements ever made. Bill Mahr is the perfect symbol of the Modern Left. Pompous, arrogant, self absorbed with a vastly over inflated opinion of his intellectual abilities and an unshakable faith that his emotional whimsies are, in fact, reality.
60 posted on 08/05/2005 9:32:41 AM PDT by MNJohnnie ( Iraq is a Terrorist bug hotel, Terrorists go in, they do not come out.)
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To: F14 Pilot

bfl


61 posted on 08/05/2005 9:35:20 AM PDT by don-o (Don't be a Freeploader. Do the right thing and become a Monthly Donor!)
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To: Lancey Howard
I never knew that......Gore Vidal's daddy was the bagman?

Interesting.

Guess all that money must have affected his testicles.

But at least we know now where that mysterious shoebox full of $100 bills came from, that suddenly became a cause notorious in the divorce of Sen. Herman Talmadge of Georgia (who'd been on the Watergate Committee as a representative of paragonship, along with Sen. Montoya of New Mexico, widely believed to be the most corrupt member of the Senate at the time -- that was before Sen Hugh Scott, the minority leader, got caught taking money from Gulf Oil two years after Watergate).

My own theory had been that "Humman" got the shoebox from the late Sen. Richard Russell of Georgia, who in turn probably received it from Lyndon Johnson when he was elevated to the Senate. It was Lyndon's "walking-around money" that he doled out to favored senators, part of his political vig, and before that came from the elder Vidal.

At least that carries us one set of hands further back in the food chain. Like the man said, "follow the money."

Someone needs to write a book, How the Corrupt U.S. Senate Worked Under the Corrupt Lyndon Johnson.

62 posted on 08/05/2005 9:45:36 AM PDT by lentulusgracchus ("Whatever." -- sinkspur)
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To: F14 Pilot

The left was and still is blinded by their hate for Bush IMO. I have said many times, if Bush declared a war on hemorrhoids, every Democrat would want one.


63 posted on 08/05/2005 9:50:57 AM PDT by IamConservative (The true character of a man is revealed in what he does when no one is looking.)
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To: Luigi Vasellini
I dont like nor hate Bush. I voted for him twice. But I dont know who's worse; Bush haters or Bushbots??

LOL...
I voted for him twice too, and Bushbots get my goat more than Bush haters ever could. I find it amazing how the Bushbots will support any violation of the Constitution as long as it comes from the Bush administration.

I think Hitchens hits the nail on the head when he says: "Many of the neocons have Marxist backgrounds and believe in ideas and principles and have worked with both parties in power".
...
64 posted on 08/05/2005 9:56:54 AM PDT by mugs99
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To: lentulusgracchus
Fascinating that Hitchens sees him as a fascist.

One man's communist is another man's fascist. :-P

But frankly, I don't think there was much of an essential difference between commies and fascists. The ideology of both groups was based on collectivism, and the motivation of both was power-lust.

65 posted on 08/05/2005 10:10:41 AM PDT by Smile-n-Win (Don't let them take things away from you on behalf of the public good!)
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To: lentulusgracchus

It was definitely NOT the God of Abraham the Nazis worshipped. The upper echelons of the Party and the SS were deep into the Occult which was where their Secret Doctrine came from. They hated Christianity and its God of Love and would have wiped it out if victorious.

No the Jesuits would not have accepted the ideology at all it was strictly in an organizational sense that the SS modelled itself on the Order. And the elite nature of it.


66 posted on 08/05/2005 10:33:38 AM PDT by justshutupandtakeit (Public Enemy #1, the RATmedia.)
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To: F14 Pilot

bump for later read.


67 posted on 08/05/2005 10:56:11 AM PDT by processing please hold (Islam and Christianity do not mix ----9-11 taught us that)
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To: F14 Pilot
"The Democrat party truly is what some people crudely say: a wholly-owned subsidiary of the Israeli lobby. It is one thing it has never deviated on: that and abortion. The only two things the Democrats have never flip flopped about."

A remarkably straightforward statement.

One of the most interesting things about the last few years has been to see the real hatred so many on the Left have toward Israel and Jews in general. In essence, I think this means that the Dim party will be more resistant to the most radical Left elements. And this means that foreign policy radicals are less likely to influence Dim candidates in upcoming elections. Despite Dean's failed bid, the Left's power to dictate foreign policy positions to the Dims will increasingly fade. There will be no replay here of how, during the Vietnam era, the views of the Left on foreign policy became the voice of the Dim party for decades to come.
68 posted on 08/05/2005 11:34:22 AM PDT by George W. Bush
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To: IamConservative
The left was and still is blinded by their hate for Bush IMO. I have said many times, if Bush declared a war on hemorrhoids, every Democrat would want one.

May I pilfer your post? I would love to use that line when fighting with leftists.

69 posted on 08/05/2005 12:51:32 PM PDT by processing please hold (Islam and Christianity do not mix ----9-11 taught us that)
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To: pbrown
May I pilfer your post? I would love to use that line when fighting with leftists.

You may pilfer with reckless abandon. If in the course of use, you would discover why a hemorrhiod is not called an astroid I would appreciate an update. :)

70 posted on 08/05/2005 12:55:13 PM PDT by IamConservative (The true character of a man is revealed in what he does when no one is looking.)
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To: IamConservative
I will, and thanks. I stumbled into a vipers nest of leftist in a tiny town in Texas. The glee they express when our soldiers are killed in Iraq makes me want to vomit. There is one particular person who post their deaths at every opportunity.

All they scream 'Bush lied, people died'.

I find myself fighting on 4-5 threads at a time. They hate me with a passion. A few conservatives are there, but the left outweighs the right. I have such a great time there.

71 posted on 08/05/2005 1:03:59 PM PDT by processing please hold (Islam and Christianity do not mix ----9-11 taught us that)
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To: GeronL
This battle is one that will not end in the lifetimes of our grandkids.

I agree.

but the left is not going to 'collapse' ever. It will have to be killed, it will have to be fought and slaughtered every day and every hour of our lives.

Again, I agree. The insidious left is as much a threat to the health of this free nation as AIDS is to the human body. So far, there is no cure or vaccine for either AIDS or Leftism.

72 posted on 08/05/2005 1:16:23 PM PDT by elbucko
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To: F14 Pilot

Hitchens bump
:o)


73 posted on 08/05/2005 1:32:54 PM PDT by Liberty Valance ( Howdy!)
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To: Terabitten
There was once a time, before Marxism, when leftists were, at least, honest.

Nostalgically, yes. That was before they became the agents of a foreign government, the Soviet Union, and infiltrated the Democratic party from the New York City political machine after WWI. FDR brought the NYC communists into the federal government and there they found a permanent place in the Democratic Party and Washington DC. However, since the fall of the USSR, the Left can come out of the closet. The electorate would have never trusted Bill Clinton with the country had there still been a Soviet Union in 1992.

For instance, California used to be "progressive" Republican in the 1950's to the 1990's. Now it is radical Democrat left and getting to be "oppressive" with the imposition of their "freedoms". The Left have now completed what the railroads did in the 19th. Century. The Left has spanned the Continent.

74 posted on 08/05/2005 1:43:23 PM PDT by elbucko
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To: George W. Bush
One of the most interesting things about the last few years has been to see the real hatred so many on the Left have toward Israel and Jews in general.

May I be so bold to venture a guess as to why?

I think that the formation of Israel, in 1948 and its survival, was the first big nail in the USSR's coffin. The Russian Revolution was, essentially, a Jewish revolution. Russia became a place where the Eastern European Jews could be safe and in charge. The Devil that they made the deal with for this security was Marxism. With the reformation of historic Israel, the Jews now had another home, their original home, not an ersatz home like the USSR. It was only a matter of time and a president like Reagan that would start the exodus of Jews to leave Russia and return home to Israel. The secular Democrats have turned on Israel because Israel, besides being an ersatz theocracy, is significantly responsible for the demise of the International Lefts, "Most Favored Nation", the USSR.

75 posted on 08/05/2005 2:03:51 PM PDT by elbucko
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Comment #76 Removed by Moderator

To: F14 Pilot

Thanks for posting this...

ping for later read.


77 posted on 08/05/2005 3:08:40 PM PDT by SE Mom (God Bless those who serve)
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To: F14 Pilot
They [Islamist radicals or, as Hitchens calls them, Islamo-fascists] gave us no peace and we shouldn’t give them any.

We can't live on the same planet as them and I'm glad because I don’t want to. I don’t want to breathe the same air as these psychopaths and murders and rapists and torturers and child abusers. Its them or me.

I'm very happy about this because I know it will be them. It’s a duty and a responsibility to defeat them. But it's also a pleasure.

I don’t regard it as a grim task at all.

I agree...and I wish I had said that.....

78 posted on 08/05/2005 3:34:01 PM PDT by cbkaty (I may not always post...but I am always here......)
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To: F14 Pilot
I have his No One Left to Lie To so I know he periodically pushes back the black blot of dogma.

He's still one hundred eighty degrees wrong on Vietnam as two million Cambodians will attest to from the other side.

And his fondness for "Palestinians" ignores their teaching their children to "kill the Zionist wherever you find him"--not endearing to me.

Yet he's bold here and now where it's life or death, and that takes courage. David Horowitz (Radical Son) made a similar break with lemming leftists.

Fine that Hitchens opposes Islamofascists, but dangerous that he consorts with Edward Said. Daniel Pipes depicts Said:

Noted scholar and author Edward Said, whose works include "Covering Islam" and "Orientalism," wrote that Pipes is one of a group of anti-Muslim pundits who seek to "make sure that the '[Islamic] threat' is kept before our eyes, the better to excoriate Islam for terror, despotism and violence, while assuring themselves profitable consultancies, frequent TV appearances and book contracts." (The Nation, 8/12/1996)

The same Edward Said who told a Kuwaiti newspaper some years ago that "the Israeli and U.S. Governments are our enemies" (Al-Qabas, Oct. 7, 1989); he is someone whose judgment we are to respect? And he, the guru of Middle Eastern studies, the president of the Modern Language Association, the celebrity intellectual of Columbia University, and the darling of post-modernists, accuses me of having fashionable politics?

So I don't agree with Hitchens that the U.S. was eevil in Vietnam--in my view we fought evil; nor do I agree with him that we must cater to the "Palestinians" more than to, say, the Manson family.

I do agree with him that Michael Moore and Ernst Röhm will be reunited in a bathhouse in hell.

I do agree with Hitchens' final paragraph which is full of stirring rhetoric (with which I posit Hitchens' collaborator Said will have nothing to do).

Now, on to Tehran and turn Khamenei into a Ceacescu for the New Millenium.


79 posted on 08/05/2005 5:28:53 PM PDT by PhilDragoo (Hitlery: das Butch von Buchenvald)
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To: elbucko

Thanks. I am going to upgrade my FR homepage with a little 'column' I wrote today on the topic.


80 posted on 08/05/2005 10:19:22 PM PDT by GeronL (Leftism is the Cult of the Artificial)
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To: aculeus
How about 'Chrissy'? /kidding

Anyway, since I am adverse to vanities (since when?, someone shouted) I posted something good I wrote on my profile page... if you like it please post it to a thread if no one else... I would love to see it discussed.

BTW- I am talking about the 'column' and not a joke or something.

81 posted on 08/05/2005 10:32:21 PM PDT by GeronL (Leftism is the Cult of the Artificial)
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