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Young Asians focus of searches [London goes sane!]
The Sunday Times (UK) ^ | August 7, 2005 | By Thair Shaikh

Posted on 08/06/2005 7:30:21 PM PDT by aculeus

AS SENIOR officers and civil rights groups continued to argue about the controversial new stop-and-search policy, based on racial profiling, police put it into practice yesterday at stations across London.

Officers working to the guidelines, confirmed on Sunday by Ian Johnston, Chief Constable of the British Transport Police, targeted men of Asian appearance aged 18 to 30. Mr Johnston, who was supported yesterday by Hazel Blears, the Home Office Minister, said that police should not waste time searching “old white ladies”.

“Intelligence-led stop and searches has got to be the way,” he said. “We should not bottle out over this . . . there is every sign that the Muslim community understand the predicament we face.”

Police officers said that they had stopped and searched a disproportionately large number of young Asian men in Liverpool Street and King’s Cross stations. One of the those stopped at Liverpool Street was Arif Mahmud, 22, a waiter of Bangladeshi origin. A community support officer spent ten minutes checking his rucksack and suitcase and had also asked for identification. “He was polite and I can sort of understand why it has to be done, but there were lots of white men with rucksacks walking by as he questioned me,” Mr Mahmud said. “I’m pretty scared . . . everybody is staring at me because of my luggage.”

The guidelines, which will also target black men and those of East African appearance, were attacked by civil rights groups and Muslim organisations. Shami Chakrabarti, director of the civil rights group Liberty, said: “If you search people of a particular race or description, it does not take long for terrorists to learn ways of placing their lethal cargo with those who do not meet the profile.”

The Muslim Council of Britain said: “While it is understandable that the police need to undertake every step to thwart would-be bombers, it is crucial that they do not unnecessarily alienate and stigmatise an entire segment of society.”

Copyright 2005 Times Newspapers Ltd.


TOPICS: Extended News; United Kingdom
KEYWORDS: profiling; racialprofiling; sanity

A man is stopped and searched at London's St Pancras station (JACK HILL)

1 posted on 08/06/2005 7:30:22 PM PDT by aculeus
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To: aculeus
At least THEY are attempting to protect their citizens from murderers!


Kill A Commie For Mommie
Seven Dead Monkeys Page O Tunes

2 posted on 08/06/2005 7:35:17 PM PDT by rawcatslyentist ("If it's brown, drink it down. If it's black send it back." Homer's guide to drinking in Springfield)
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To: aculeus

Nice way of these Islam-sympathisers to refer to Muslims as 'Asians', thus deviously bracketing them under Hindus and Sikhs.


3 posted on 08/06/2005 8:50:43 PM PDT by CarrotAndStick (The articles posted by me needn't necessarily reflect my opinion.)
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To: aculeus; general_re; MadIvan; All
You pays your money and you takes your choice.

(London Metropolitan) Police told to avoid racial profiling

4 posted on 08/06/2005 9:13:34 PM PDT by dighton
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To: CarrotAndStick

Unfortunately Hindus & Sikhs look very similar to Muslims and the only way to distinguish the would be to look into their pants !! This is what the Pak Army did in Bangladesh in 1971 to identify & liquidate Hindus.



5 posted on 08/06/2005 9:15:12 PM PDT by ttsmi
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To: ttsmi
Rather than racial profiling, which can be inaccurate, maybe they should set up a kiosk where someone desecrated korans in creative ways. You could instantly eliminate the people clapping as terror suspects.
6 posted on 08/06/2005 9:37:51 PM PDT by Pointblank
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To: CarrotAndStick

Well, this has been SOP in England for years. Unfortunately, Hindus and Sikhs are probably going to get extra scrutiny, too.


7 posted on 08/06/2005 9:39:56 PM PDT by AmishDude (Join the AmishDude fan club: "ROFLOL!" -- tuliptree76)
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To: CarrotAndStick; AmishDude

One reason I always condemn folks who use the term "raghead" is because it could easily apply to Sikhs. Sikhs are the good guys, who know what a bitch it is to live under Muslim rule.


8 posted on 08/06/2005 9:57:49 PM PDT by Clemenza (Intelligent Design Isn't Very Intelligent)
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Comment #9 Removed by Moderator

To: CarrotAndStick; ttsmi
Unfortunately Hindus & Sikhs look very similar to Muslims ...

Which is why racial profiling is stupid at best and foolish at worst. Frankly I don't trust any idiot white people to figure one group from another or know anybody's race. "look at their pants". Fool. Have you never seen a Sikh in a business suit?

10 posted on 08/07/2005 12:45:50 AM PDT by Clock King
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To: Clock King

"Which is why racial profiling is stupid at best and foolish at worst."

Nice condemnation.....Now what is YOUR solution?


11 posted on 08/07/2005 1:27:01 AM PDT by commonasdirt (Reading DU so you won't hafta)
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To: commonasdirt

Most police have almost preternatural instincts to detect that a person is up to no good. Let them use that instinct, but don't try to codify it. Those who want to codify it are just holding on to their "job". Hire only the best and brightest to enforce the law. And train them very well. Narrow the focus. We know little old ladies (black, white, brown,..) are not bombers. But neither are all non-white men. All racial profiling does is instill anger in people who are otherwise model citizens. We've been through this in the US, and it did nothing except strip people of liberty and their constitutional rights. And if it happens to the least of us, it WILL bubble up to average white citizen. Do you want to live in that world? I don't.


12 posted on 08/07/2005 7:50:41 AM PDT by Clock King
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To: Clock King

"preternatural instincts"

I can just see that in an officers testimony at the court proceeding when the dept is sued.....you know, the part just before the person who was selected using this criteria wins. As to you your last line "Do you want to live in that world?" No....not really....But I would like to continue living. And if that means ALL males between certain ages and perhaps of a certain ethnic appeareance are more likely to selected for scrutiny I really can live with it.


13 posted on 08/07/2005 5:27:54 PM PDT by commonasdirt (Reading DU so you won't hafta)
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To: commonasdirt

"Nice condemnation.....Now what is YOUR solution?"

I guess he wants to keep searching the "idiot white people". Especially the idiot white grandmothers.


14 posted on 08/07/2005 5:42:48 PM PDT by dljordan
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To: dljordan

"I guess he wants to keep searching the "idiot white people". Especially the idiot white grandmothers."

When i read the guys response i had to laugh. Preternatural instincts....the brightest and the best...etc. I suppose we can set up a psychic hotline to screen potential police officers for this talent. LOL
But the funniest suggestion of his was "Narrow The Focus". Which seems to me to be saying...PROFILE MORE! LOL


15 posted on 08/07/2005 6:26:20 PM PDT by commonasdirt (Reading DU so you won't hafta)
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To: commonasdirt
...certain ages and perhaps of a certain ethnic appeareance...

What ethnicity would that be? You think Islam consists of only non-whites? Think again.

16 posted on 08/07/2005 10:27:12 PM PDT by CarrotAndStick (The articles posted by me needn't necessarily reflect my opinion.)
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To: CarrotAndStick

In places like the UK and US I am sure there are some white muslims. But if you think they constitute anything more than a miniscule portion of the group......Think again Einstein. And I am sure that many are like the Richard Reid (the shoe bomber), white converts to islam are usually nutty looking enough to be noticed. Profiling....as much as you will hate to admit it, will work. But hey, if you think EVERYBODY should be searched....fine. Just don't whine if you have to leave for your trip 12 hours early so you can get thru the lines.


17 posted on 08/08/2005 1:15:34 AM PDT by commonasdirt (Reading DU so you won't hafta)
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To: Pointblank

I have a very telling pic showing a Paki soldier checking out a bangladeshi man to see if he was a Hindu or a Muslim - unfortunately I still have to figure out how to post pics here !!


18 posted on 08/08/2005 4:47:22 AM PDT by ttsmi
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To: Clock King

That was not "look at their pants" but "look INTO their pants" - to check if they were circumcised !!


19 posted on 08/08/2005 4:48:58 AM PDT by ttsmi
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To: commonasdirt

I am not opposed to racial profiling, but then again, those two in the picture weren't American or European converts to Islam, they were hard-core Muslim Palestinians. A large percentage of fanatic Muslims have very European-esque features, and a lot of them DO take part in suicide missions. And they were in a Hamas procession (look at the picture again, they were not in an animal rights protest, they were dressed like suicide bombers). Now if you can't single them out from the rest of the crowd, how in the world are you going to tell me all would be safe if you only checked a couple of brown-skinned people?

Well, if you really think your plan will work well, let me warn you the safety is worthlessly fragile. Islam has more tricks up its sleeves than you think. It is the most virulent, most diversely penetrative parasitic, demonic cult that this world has ever seen. And yes, it has crossed almost all racial and cultural barriers.


20 posted on 08/08/2005 6:24:42 AM PDT by CarrotAndStick (The articles posted by me needn't necessarily reflect my opinion.)
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To: CarrotAndStick

If you check all OBVIOUSLY islamic appearing people first you will be better off statistically then checking none of them or only every tenth one who happens to be in a line. Me? I think if you are checking I.D.'s anyone falling in your convert category who has I.D. with a name that sounds like a typical muslim name, especially if think they are a convert, would immediately be pulled for closer examination. Leave it to the cops judgement. Profiling is not the complete answer, but it certainly is a partial one. If they decide they need to begin looking at 50+ year old white guys at some point and it inconveniances me....I am fine with that. To condemn profiling while offering no alternative is insane.


21 posted on 08/08/2005 8:16:59 AM PDT by commonasdirt (Reading DU so you won't hafta)
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To: commonasdirt
So you do agree profiling is not a perfect solution. Well, terrorists(read Muslims) do the most hideous things. They WILL find ways to get past the system. You say check all brown-skinned travellers? They WILL send in white Muslims. You say check all who have Muslim-sounding names? They WILL send in Muslims with Anglicised names(Ibrahim becomes Abraham, Dawood becomes David, and so on. Don't forget Richard Reid). You talk about Muslim 'appearances'. Well, they'll shave to kill. The London bombers did just that!

You are looking at a religiously motivated bunch of b@stards who go far out of the way to kill innocents. Islam has a concept of Taqquiah(sp.?), it means to deceive the 'enemy' through disguise, lying, conviction, etc., to achieve the purpose of furthering the Muslim goal of eventual domination of all lands on earth. I don't think racial profiling will really make much of a difference. All you may see is that instead of brown-skinned Muslims doing it, white-skinned Arabs, Europeans (Chechans, Albanians, Turks and many more) and Iranians will take up the job(they are already dying to become 'martyrs'), like they do in Israel. The problem is too complicated to be solved by racial profiling. The problem is Islam itself. They will do everything to beat the statistics. After all, didn't they attack the WTC a decade prior to 9-11? What does statistics say about that?

I really don't know what alternative exists to racial profiling, but it is not wise to bank on a solution which itself is wrought with more holes than a sieve. If all you care about is a false sense of security, then it may do that, and keep the spirits high until the next time the enemies strike. After all, you've got to be lucky every time, and they need to be so only once.

22 posted on 08/08/2005 11:53:56 AM PDT by CarrotAndStick (The articles posted by me needn't necessarily reflect my opinion.)
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To: CarrotAndStick

An awful lot of type for ending up by saying you don't know what to do instead of profiling. I will stand by my statements. Profiling is better than doing nothing. When they alter their methods we can devise new ways. In the meantime, if profiling catches 9 and lets 1 get through is that a failure to you. What's your complaint? If we cannot catch them all we should do nothing? to you? I tend to think that their ability to attract white converts to islam who are willing to blow themselves up is more limited then you think. All in all, making statements against profiling without offering anything as a substitute made your long exceedingly windy statement makes it nothing more than that.


23 posted on 08/08/2005 4:23:12 PM PDT by commonasdirt (Reading DU so you won't hafta)
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To: commonasdirt
Again, you have mistaken me. I said there are plenty of white, non-western fanatic muslims already. They don't need western converts for the job. A large percentage of Arabs, Iranians and Eastern European muslims cannot be distinguished from an average white westerner, blue eyes and all, even by appearance, leave alone skin colour. This is the crux of the fault with racial profiling, and the terrorists know it as well.

In Israel itself, you can't always distinguish between a European Jew and a lot of Palestinians.

If you really think profiling will solve the problem, then go ahead.

24 posted on 08/08/2005 9:42:49 PM PDT by CarrotAndStick (The articles posted by me needn't necessarily reflect my opinion.)
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To: CarrotAndStick

Converts are one thing....and a whole differant thing at that. As I said I doubt they will find many of the converted ready to strap on a bomb. Profiling will be a fact. And thankfully so....it WILL stop some.


25 posted on 08/08/2005 9:58:51 PM PDT by commonasdirt (Reading DU so you won't hafta)
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To: CarrotAndStick

And if you bother to read my posts you would see that I clearly and more than once stated that profiling is not the entire solution. Not profiling at all would be sheer idiocy.


26 posted on 08/08/2005 10:00:16 PM PDT by commonasdirt (Reading DU so you won't hafta)
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To: commonasdirt
I agree profiling can be a short term fix to the problem, albeit a leaky one. But then one musn't depend too much on it. If you do, you are bound to be sorry sooner, rather than later. Neighbourhood watches and informants within communities can probably help track these vermin better, coupled with profiling.

And I will say it again, there are plenty of white, blonde-haired, blue-eyed middle eastern Muslims(who aren't converts, but born Muslims) IN AMERICA and the rest of the world who are supportive toward Islamics and their activities, and racial profiling cannot possibly track all of them, unless it includes almost all races. This is the biggest shortfall of racial profiling, and you can bet the terrorists WILL exploit it.

27 posted on 08/09/2005 12:34:27 AM PDT by CarrotAndStick (The articles posted by me needn't necessarily reflect my opinion.)
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To: Clock King
Which is why racial profiling is stupid at best and foolish at worst. Frankly I don't trust any idiot white people to figure one group from another or know anybody's race. "look at their pants". Fool. Have you never seen a Sikh in a business suit?

Yet "idiot white people" isn't racial profiling???? Interesting.

Speaking of fools, he said look into not at their pants. Only a fool wouldn't understand what was meant by that.

I'll profile Moos and their crappy little death-cult all I wish and encourage others to do the same; Islam is a cancer upon the Earth which must be eliminated.

28 posted on 08/09/2005 12:41:25 AM PDT by Hank Rearden (Never allow anyone who could only get a government job attempt to tell you how to run your life.)
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To: commonasdirt
As I said I doubt they will find many of the converted ready to strap on a bomb.

Unless they are really really alienated and enraged already.

29 posted on 08/09/2005 12:43:35 AM PDT by The Red Zone (Florida, the sun-shame state, and Illinois the chicken injun.)
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To: The Red Zone

I think if the poster I was discussing this with before was correct we would have already seen it. I really doubt that they would trust the converted white muslims for reason of culture for one thing. They are not stupid, it would already be in play if it were so easy to get them to do so. Sure, there was the shoe bomber......but look what a screw up he was.


30 posted on 08/09/2005 1:21:01 AM PDT by commonasdirt (Reading DU so you won't hafta)
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To: CarrotAndStick

It is a long term solution but only to a degree. No one is saying make that the ponly plan. But like it or not, it will be done. If it catches anyone at all it will have proven it is worth it.


31 posted on 08/09/2005 1:23:06 AM PDT by commonasdirt (Reading DU so you won't hafta)
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To: commonasdirt

Agreed. But we need to think of better ways to stop this menace once and for all at the same time. Till then, profiling can be an acceptable "solution".


32 posted on 08/09/2005 6:32:52 AM PDT by CarrotAndStick (The articles posted by me needn't necessarily reflect my opinion.)
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To: CarrotAndStick

Un freakin believable CarrotAndStick! After tossing postings back and forth at one another we reach the middle ground of civil agreement. Who'd a thunk it. One thing for sure, if this was DU or some other lib site we would be screaming at one another by now. No wait.....DU would have banned me by now AGAIN. LOL And THAT is what makes FR the Much better place.


33 posted on 08/09/2005 12:38:51 PM PDT by commonasdirt (Reading DU so you won't hafta)
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To: commonasdirt

I agree. I enjoyed it thoroughly.


34 posted on 08/09/2005 8:39:36 PM PDT by CarrotAndStick (The articles posted by me needn't necessarily reflect my opinion.)
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