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9/11 Y2K; the 9/11 attack that happened BEFORE 2001 (Free Republic Exclusive)
FAA ^ | 9/11/00 | Southack and Government Sources

Posted on 08/11/2005 11:57:19 AM PDT by Southack

This is the FAA accident report for the mid-air collision in Florida one year prior to the 9/11/01 attacks on the WTC and Pentagon (and PA).

I brought this up in the week of 9/11/01, but this story was apparently "lost" in the news at the time. There were subsequent articles on this topic, and where FReepers can still find them, they should be appended onto posts on this thread.

Some important points to consider:
the Saudi national who piloted his aircraft into the Piper Aztec commercial flight had received his pilot's license from the Phillipines
Early blogs at the time noted that the Saudi pilot was Mohamed Atta or Alhazmi's roommate (this point needs to be confirmed)
This was a 9/11 attack...9/11 of 2000, not 2001
The 9/11 Congressional Commission did NOT research earlier 9/11 attacks such as this one
The 9/11/01 terrorists received $100,000 wire transfer to Florida one week after their 9/11/2000 attack at Ft Pierce airport, on September 18, 2000 ( http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=complete_911_timeline&startpos=300#a062900transfer )
The Ft. Pierce 9/11/2000 attack was only 83 miles from the 9/11/2001 attackers' Del Ray beach condo
...and, this 9/11/2000 attack is relevant to the new discovery that *LAWYERS* in the Clinton Administration prevented Able Danger intel (and other information) on these terrorists from reaching the FBI (read: Gorelick's Wall).


TOPICS: Extended News; Front Page News; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: 091100; 200009; 20000911; 911; abdulrahmanalomari; abledanger; adnanbukhari; aircrash; alomari; ameerbuhari; ameerbukhari; amerkamfar; amirbukhari; atta; bukhari; faa; florida; gorelickswall; kamfar; prequel; wot
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
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HISTORY OF FLIGHT
On September 11, 2000, at 1246 eastern daylight time, a PA-28-161 (Cherokee), N9208N, and a PA-23-250 (Aztec), N54235, collided on final approach to land on runway 09 at the Saint Lucie International Airport in Fort Pierce, Florida. The Cherokee was operated by Flight Safety International and the Aztec was operated by the airline transport pilot under the provisions of Title 14 CFR Part 91 with no flight plans filed. Visual weather conditions prevailed at the time of the collision.
 
The air transport pilot onboard the Aztec, and the private pilot, a Saudi Arabian citizen, onboard the Cherokee, both received fatal injuries. Both airplanes were destroyed.
 
The Cherokee instructional flight departed Vero Beach, Florida, on a solo training flight at approximately 1220, and the Aztec departed Okeechobee, Florida, after refueling, at approximately 1230. According to the information recovered from the Saint Lucie County Airport Air Traffic Control Tower recordings, at 1227:50, the pilot of the Cherokee radioed the tower that he was seven miles northeast of the airport inbound for touch and go landings. The pilot was instructed to report two miles northeast for a left downwind for runway 09. At 1235:29, the Cherokee was cleared for the first touch and go landing. After the landing, and as the Cherokee had reentered the traffic pattern, at 1240:16, the tower controller instructed the pilot of the Cherokee to execute a 360 degree right turn on downwind for spacing.
 
At 1242:06, the pilot of the Aztec, radioed the tower controller and reported 10 miles west of the airport inbound for landing. The pilot was instructed to continue straight-in and to report over the interstate. At 1245:25, the pilot of the Aztec, reported over the interstate for runway 09. The tower controller instructed the pilot of the Aztec to follow the Cherokee, who was turning base to a three mile final to runway 09. The pilot of the Aztec reported "we're looking for the Cherokee." At 1246:19, the tower controller asked the pilot of the Aztec "do you have the Cherokee off of your left wing?" The pilot of the Aztec report, "no contact." At 1646:34, the controller asked the Cherokee if he had "an Aztec alongside of ya out there?" The pilot of the Cherokee replied, "ah negative sir." The controller then told the Cherokee to "over fly runway niner, make left traffic."
 
No response was noted from the Cherokee pilot. At 1247, another airplane flying above the airport reported that they had just witnessed an in-flight collision three miles from the end of runway 09.
 
PERSONNEL INFORMATION The pilot of the PA-28-161 (Cherokee) held a student pilot certificate. His total flight time in the Cherokee was 17.6 hours, but his total flight time in all aircraft was undetermined. The pilot also had a foreign based private pilot license from the Philippines. The pilot held a current first class medical certificate, dated May 16, 2000, with no limitations or waivers. The pilot of the PA-23-250 (Aztec) held an airline transport pilot multi-engine land, a type rating in EMB-120, commercial pilot single-engine land, and instrument ratings. Included also were certified flight instructor single and multi-engine instrument airplane ratings. His total flight time was 7438 hours and the approximate flying time in the PA-23-250 was not determined. The pilot held a current second-class medical certificate, dated September 14, 1999, with no limitations or waivers.
 
AIRCRAFT INFORMATION The PA-28-161, N9208N, was owned and operated by Flight Safety International, of Vero Beach, Florida. N9208N was a low-wing airplane powered by a Lycoming O-320-D36 engine. A review of the airplane maintenance logbooks showed that the last maintenance inspection was on September 8, 2000. The PA-23-250, N54235, was owned by St. Lucia Petroleum, of Port St. Lucia, Florida. The airplane was operated by Roger M. Boromei of Okeechobee, Florida. N7317A was a low-wing multi-engine airplane powered by two Lycoming IO-540-C4B5 engines. A review of the airplane maintenance logbooks showed that the last maintenance inspection was September 1, 1999.
 
METEOROLOGICAL INFORMATION Ft. Pierces St. Lucie County International Airport, in Florida, 1053, weather observation reported a scattered cloud layer, visibility 10 miles, wind 090 degrees at nine knots.
 
AIRPORT INFORMATION Ft. Pierces St. Lucie County International Airport, in Florida, has two runways: 14/32 and 09/27. At the time of the accident, runway 09 was in use. The Ft. Pierce air traffic control tower is operated by Federal Aviation Administration. The facility operates from 0700 to 2100 daily. There is no radar at the airport, nor does the tower have any type of radar display to augment airport operations.
 
WRECKAGE AND IMPACT INFORMATION Examination of the accident site disclosed that both airplanes were 2.7 miles west of runway 09, and were within several feet of the extended centerline of the landing runway. The Cherokee was found inverted orientated on an easterly magnetic heading, and the Aztec was found in a near vertical nose down attitude orientated on a northeasterly magnetic heading. Both airplanes were located approximately 75 feet apart in a citrus fruit grove. Further examination of the damaged airplanes showed two diagonal slashes on the bottom-side of the Cherokee at a position near the right wing root, and at another position several inches inboard of the right wing tip. Chordwise damage was observed on both of the propeller blades on the Aztec. Cherokee The right wing remained attached to the Cherokee. The mid portion of the aileron, approximately five feet, was attached to the center hinge. Inboard ten feet of the aileron was separated, but remained attached to the inboard hinge. The flap was bent in a "V" shape, 35 inches outboard of the flap root, and the lower wing skin aft of the main spar between the wing root and the main gear was destroyed with exposed aileron cables. The right flap had a prop strike measuring nine inches starting at the root of the flap, the second prop strike is forward of the flap and is 15 inches in length. The right stabilator, starting at the root and trailing edge has a semi circular indention approximately 16 inches wide, and is bent downward 15 inches. There is black smearing apparent at the outboard edge of the anti servo trim tab. The left wing remained attached to the fuselage. The fuel tank separated at the leading edge, and 27 rivets sheared. The stall strips were attached, and bent in a "V" shape. Outboard eight feet of the wings' leading edge was deformed. There were black smear marks 13 inches apart. The vertical stabilator was flattened even with the tail cone. The rudder is separated from the vertical stabilator, but remained attached to the torque tube. The left stabilator has blue paint transfer starting at the leading edge root extending out 17 inches. The right stabilator leading edge was deformed. A tear was noted on the stabilator skin, and the inboard trailing edge skin is crushed and wrinkled. The right anti-servo was bent downward and had heavy black smearing. The left anti-servo tab was bent downward with black smearing. There is heavy black smearing aft of the forward tail cone rivet line which extends to the rear bulkhead. Aztec The left tail cone is crushed inboard approximately three inches located at the dorsal fin. The right tail cone is crushed inboard approximately 17 inches located at the dorsal fin. The left wing is separated at the wing root, and the entire leading edge is crushed aft to the main spar outboard to the nacelle. The leading edge material nacelle to the tip is separated and destroyed. The aileron remained attached to three hinges, the outboard 12 inches of aileron is crushed up and aft a few inches. Aileron connecting rod is separated at the eyebolt. The fuel bladder is separated and destroyed. The flap is separated to the outboard hinge and the eyebolt is oblong in shape. Main gear is extended and locked with main gear doors destroyed. The engine was buried approximately four feet in the ground along with the propeller. The main spar box is broken at the wing roots. The right wing is separated from the fuselage and the entire leading edge is separated and destroyed. All upper wing skin and 3 feet of the outboard nacelle is separated and destroyed. The aileron is separated at all hinges. The flap is separated from the inboard hinge and bent in a V shape. All fuel bladders are destroyed, and the main gear is down and locked.
 
MEDICAL AND PATHOLOGICAL INFORMATION Postmortem examination of the pilot, who flew the Aztec, was performed by Dr. Hobin at the State of Florida's Office of Medical Examiners at District 19 in Ft. Pierce, Florida. The forensic toxicology was performed by the FAA Toxicology and Accident Research Laboratory, Oklahoma City, Oklahoma. The tests were negative for drugs and alcohol. Postmortem examination of the pilot, who flew the Cherokee, was performed by Dr. Diggs at the State of Florida's Office of Medical Examiners at District 19 in Ft. Pierce, Florida. The forensic toxicology was performed by the FAA Toxicology and Accident Research Laboratory, Oklahoma City, Oklahoma. The tests were negative for drugs and alcohol.
 
ADDITIONAL INFORMATION Three minutes prior to the collision, the local controller had relieved another controller at the position. Both controllers were at the local control when the accident occurred. The controller being relieved said that he thought the Aztec was faster than the Cherokee. When asked if he had developed a sequence when he instructed the pilot of the Aztec to report over the interstate, he said no. As it pertained to the position relief briefing, he said that he initiated the recording, but an aircraft called and he unkeyed to respond to the aircraft. He then went to commence recording the briefing, but at that time, the relieving controller told him he had the traffic or indicated in some manner that he was aware of all the traffic and took over the position. There was no discussion regarding traffic. At that time, all known traffic was displayed on the board. The controller being relieved remained plugged in because it was getting busy, and he asked the relieving controller if he should man the coordinator position. There was no response. The controller being relieved saw the Aztec turning final over the interstate, and then he observed the Cherokee turning base leg either over or east of the interstate. It appeared to him the Aztec was passing the Cherokee on its left side. He looked away and then went looked back using binoculars. At that time, both airplanes were on final about 2-2.5 miles out. He thought the Aztec was in front and was creating distance. He told the relieving controller the airplanes very close, and he could not tell who was in front and who was behind. He continued observing, and then he witnessed the collision.
 
The controller being relieved heard the relieving controller give the instructions to the Cherokee to fly down the runway. When asked if the instruction would have altered the flight path of the Cherokee, he said it should not have, no. When asked why neither airplane had been told to break out, he said because it might have caused an in-flight collision rather than avoiding it. When asked if a situation has gone too far if aircraft are so close that a resolution might cause them to hit each other, the controller being relieved said, no because of the equipment we are provided, a determination sometimes cannot be made. The relieving controller was asked if there was any discussion about traffic, he said the controller being relieved had pointed out traffic in the pattern. He said he was standing during the relief briefing, and then he sat down at the local control position. According to the relieving controller, traffic was moderate to heavy and of routine. He believed he had the traffic picture when he took control. When asked if there had been a point at which he was concerned about the two airplanes, he said yes, when the pilot of the Aztec advised he did not have the traffic in sight. The relieving controller was asked what he was trying to accomplish by telling the Cherokee to overfly the runway, he said that he wanted to take the airplane out of its landing configuration and it just happened to be the Cherokee. He wanted to change the landing configuration because both airplanes were pointed toward the runway at least both would not be on the runway. He noted that neither airplane had been issued a landing clearance, and he thought the clearance to fly down the runway would cause the Cherokee to keep its speed up. Since no one could tell who was on the left or right, he did not want to issue turns. He never used the binoculars to confirm the position of the two airplanes. When asked why not, he replied there was a lot going on and that a local controller does not focus on one specific situation. He noted, that he had another airplane landing and rolling out while there were others waiting to depart. When asked if he had observed the collision, he said no.
 
He was asked if there are times at which a controller must take other action if a pilot continues to advise he does not have his traffic in sight. He said no that traffic advisories are issued, and that you try to get them to see each other. He was asked if spacing and sequencing are used to make sure that aircraft under his control do not collide, he said yes. He was then asked to review FAA Order 7110.65, paragraph 2-1-1, and was asked if that is the purpose of the air traffic control system. As quoted in FAA Order 7110.65, "Air Traffic Control," "The primary purpose of the ATC system is to prevent a collision between aircraft operating in the system and to organize the flow of traffic." He acknowledged that is pretty much what it says. He was asked why these two airplanes collided if there is a responsibility to keep them from doing so. He said, in his opinion, he is responsible for issuing traffic advisories and trying to get the pilots to see each other. He said the system failed because the pilots did not see each other and the pilot of the Aztec did not see the Cherokee. When asked if he felt satisfied with his performance he said, "yes I do." The airplane wreckage, for the Aztec, was released on 06/12/01 to Mr. Deen, an insurance adjuster, in Atlanta, Georgia. The airplane wreckage, for the Cherokee, was released on 06/18/01 to Mr. Don Doohen, Director of Maintenance at Flight Safety Academy, in Vero Beach, Florida..

Excerpted.  More...Click here: https://extranet.nasdac.faa.gov/pls/portal/STAGE.NTSB_BRIEF_REPORT?EV_ID=20001212X21903&AC_VAR=FALSE&ENG_VAR=FALSE&INJ_VAR=FALSE&FT_VAR=FALSE&OCC_VAR=FALSE&WTHR_VAR=FALSE&PNARR_VAR=FALSE&FNARR_VAR=FALSE&CNARR_VAR=FALSE&NARR_VAR=

1 posted on 08/11/2005 11:57:35 AM PDT by Southack
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To: Southack

Thanks for the thread, Southack!


2 posted on 08/11/2005 12:00:39 PM PDT by mewzilla (Property must be secured or liberty cannot exist. John Adams)
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To: Southack

You lost me.

Weren't both pilots killed in this crash?


3 posted on 08/11/2005 12:00:39 PM PDT by nuffsenuff
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To: nuffsenuff

Yes. Both pilots were killed.

4 posted on 08/11/2005 12:01:44 PM PDT by Southack (Media Bias means that Castro won't be punished for Cuban war crimes against Black Angolans in Africa)
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To: Southack

Great thread and research, Southack. Thank you.

Yet another thing not in the 9/11 Commission Report. Neither was Salmon Pak.


5 posted on 08/11/2005 12:02:08 PM PDT by Peach
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To: Southack

bookmark for later and bump


6 posted on 08/11/2005 12:02:44 PM PDT by F15Eagle
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To: Southack

Was the dead pilot's name ever made public?


7 posted on 08/11/2005 12:03:00 PM PDT by mewzilla (Property must be secured or liberty cannot exist. John Adams)
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To: nuffsenuff; Southack
You lost me.

He never had me. I don't get it.

8 posted on 08/11/2005 12:03:26 PM PDT by Semper911 (Real estate is not real anymore.)
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To: Southack

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001212X21903&key=1

NTSB Identification: ATL00FA091A
14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation
Accident occurred Monday, September 11, 2000 in FT. PIERCE, FL
Probable Cause Approval Date: 12/4/2001
Aircraft: Piper PA-28-161, registration: N9208N
Injuries: 2 Fatal.
A Cherokee was in the traffic pattern executing touch and go landing, and the Aztec was inbound to the airport. The Cherokee and the Aztec collided in-flight in controlled airspace, while under the control of the local controller. There was a shift change at the control tower a few minutes prior to the midair collision. The relieving local controller declined a formal briefing of the location of traffic because he was busy.

The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident as follows:

Failure of local controller to provide adequate spacing between two airplanes that resulted in a midair collision. Contributing Factors: the local controller declined receiving a formal brief before relieving the controller on duty. The controller who was relieved failed to ensure proper briefing of local traffic.


9 posted on 08/11/2005 12:05:47 PM PDT by leadpenny
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To: Southack

Then I'm really REALLY lost.

Can you give us the "Cliff Notes" version?


10 posted on 08/11/2005 12:06:25 PM PDT by nuffsenuff
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To: mewzilla
"Was the dead pilot's name ever made public?"

Yes. The initial FAA report in 2000 did list the names of both pilots. For some reason, I don't see the more modern reports showing those names, however. Perhaps I'm just overlooking them.

11 posted on 08/11/2005 12:06:50 PM PDT by Southack (Media Bias means that Castro won't be punished for Cuban war crimes against Black Angolans in Africa)
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http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001212X21903&key=2

NTSB Identification: ATL00FA091B
14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation
Accident occurred Monday, September 11, 2000 in FT. PIERCE, FL
Probable Cause Approval Date: 12/4/2001
Aircraft: Piper PA-23-250, registration: N54325
Injuries: 2 Fatal.
A Cherokee was in the traffic pattern executing touch and go landing, and the Aztec was inbound to the airport. The Cherokee and the Aztec collided in-flight in controlled airspace, while under the control of the local controller. There was a shift change at the control tower a few minutes prior to the midair collision. The relieving local controller declined a formal briefing of the location of traffic because he was busy. .

The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident as follows:

Failure of local controller to provide adequate spacing between two airplanes that resulted in a midair collision. Contributing Factors: the local controller declined receiving a formal brief before relieving the controller on duty. The controller who was relieved failed to ensure proper briefing of local traffic.


12 posted on 08/11/2005 12:08:03 PM PDT by leadpenny
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To: Southack
I don't see the more modern reports showing those names, however.

Well, that's a relief. I thought it was just my peepers :)

I wonder why the name's no longer listed.

13 posted on 08/11/2005 12:08:36 PM PDT by mewzilla (Property must be secured or liberty cannot exist. John Adams)
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To: Southack
Also worth thinking about:

Egypt Air 990

14 posted on 08/11/2005 12:08:50 PM PDT by IncPen (There's nothing that a liberal can't improve using your money...)
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To: Howlin; Dog

In english this means???


Sorry ... but it's been a long day


15 posted on 08/11/2005 12:08:59 PM PDT by Mo1
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To: leadpenny
Probable Cause Approval Date: 12/4/2001

15 months isan awful long time to come up with their approval. I wonder why that was.

16 posted on 08/11/2005 12:09:28 PM PDT by Betty Jane
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To: Southack

I think you've got the tinfoil out. This sounds like a typical aircraft accident to me, with the tower partly to blame. The Saudi may have been practicing for some later nefarious deed, but this incident seems accidental to me.


17 posted on 08/11/2005 12:09:59 PM PDT by expatpat
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To: nuffsenuff
Foreigner flying small plane collided with another aircraft in Florida one year before 9/11.

Possible connection to the 9/11 terror fliers.
18 posted on 08/11/2005 12:11:30 PM PDT by BenLurkin (O beautiful for patriot dream - that sees beyond the years)
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To: Southack; Chieftain; Ohioan from Florida; Future Useless Eater; floriduh voter; ...

One time ping to an important news item. This is not part of any regular ping list. I just thought you'd want to know about it.


19 posted on 08/11/2005 12:11:31 PM PDT by BykrBayb (Impeach Judge Greer - In memory of Terri <strike>Schiavo</strike> Schindler - www.terrisfight.org)
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To: Southack
Clinton Administration prevented Able Danger intel (and other information) on these terrorists from reaching the FBI (read: Gorelick's Wall).

Clinton was too busy going after middle-aged men who used words like constitution. Was the "gorelick wall" used to keep secret the stuff being used against American conservatives? It was Clinton, after all...

20 posted on 08/11/2005 12:13:31 PM PDT by GOPJ (A person who will lie for you, will lie against you.)
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To: nuffsenuff

> You lost me.

It would seem that the implication is that the Saudi
pilot might have been suicide pilot in training.

As for the collision itself, it sounds like a classic
general aviation vertical stack-up on final. The date
strikes me as a coincidence.

> ... Further examination of the damaged airplanes showed
> two diagonal slashes on the bottom-side of the Cherokee ...

Suggesting that the Aztec was below the Cherokee.
Since the Cherokee was piloted by the Saudi, a deliberate
collision seems unlikely. These were both low-wing a/c.

The Aztec pilot needed to look up, and maybe back.
But by the time the controller realized he had two
a/c on final that didn't see each other, it may have
been too late for any corrective calls.


21 posted on 08/11/2005 12:14:19 PM PDT by Boundless
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To: Southack; Calpernia; nw_arizona_granny; Cindy; SlowBoat407; freeperfromnj; KylaStarr; ...

VERY interesting.
Worth another look, at least.

Thanks for putting it all together into a thread.

Pinging others


22 posted on 08/11/2005 12:14:40 PM PDT by Velveeta
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To: Betty Jane

Actually 15 months is pretty typical.


23 posted on 08/11/2005 12:14:41 PM PDT by ZGuy
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To: Betty Jane

That parts normal. If you play around with index of months that's the way they do it. Go to the 9-11-01 attacks and you'll see there are still just a couple of sentences.


24 posted on 08/11/2005 12:15:07 PM PDT by leadpenny
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To: Southack

Atta's roommate! Holt s#@*!!!!


25 posted on 08/11/2005 12:16:43 PM PDT by airborne
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To: Boundless

Maybe they picked 9/11/01 as the date for the attack because one of their boys was killed a year earlier?


26 posted on 08/11/2005 12:16:44 PM PDT by nuffsenuff
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To: BykrBayb; Owl_Eagle; Sam's Army; Darksheare; pissant; Dashing Dasher; najida; JimWforBush; ...
Thanks for the ping Bykrbayb!

Interesting...PING!!

27 posted on 08/11/2005 12:16:53 PM PDT by Jersey Republican Biker Chick (People too weak to follow their own dreams, will always find a way to discourage yours.)
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To: Boundless
"The Aztec pilot needed to look up, and maybe back. But by the time the controller realized he had two a/c on final that didn't see each other, it may have been too late for any corrective calls."

Nope. The Aztec is substantially faster than the Cherokee. For the Aztec to have been below and ahead of the Cherokee as you hypothesize, the faster Aztec would have had to have flown under the slower Cherokee...and then reduced speed so much as to permit an accident. All without seeing the slow aircraft that he already flew under.

Not likely.

28 posted on 08/11/2005 12:18:03 PM PDT by Southack (Media Bias means that Castro won't be punished for Cuban war crimes against Black Angolans in Africa)
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To: expatpat
You don't think there's anything newsworthy about a Saudi practicing for some later nefarious deed? I hope you're not the only witness to an event foretelling the next terror attack.
29 posted on 08/11/2005 12:18:22 PM PDT by BykrBayb (Impeach Judge Greer - In memory of Terri <strike>Schiavo</strike> Schindler - www.terrisfight.org)
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To: Boundless; Aeronaut
It would seem that the implication is that the Saudi pilot might have been suicide pilot in training.

Heh.... I'd fire the guy that thought up the idea of practice suicide runs.

In all seriousness, this sounds like a traffic pattern collision to me. If I've noticed one thing in common with terrorist acts... they look like terrorist acts, therefore evoking terror... They don't try to make them look like accidents.

30 posted on 08/11/2005 12:20:05 PM PDT by HairOfTheDog (Join the Hobbit Hole Troop Support - http://freeper.the-hobbit-hole.net/)
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To: Southack
Holy toads.

Welcome to Buckhead-Level Fame.

How come the best Freepers always seem to come from the South?

31 posted on 08/11/2005 12:20:10 PM PDT by Lazamataz (Islam is merely Nazism without the snappy fashion sense.)
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To: Southack

Hhhmmmmm...intriguing, eh?


32 posted on 08/11/2005 12:21:16 PM PDT by SE Mom (God Bless those who serve)
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To: HairOfTheDog
In all seriousness, this sounds like a traffic pattern collision to me. If I've noticed one thing in common with terrorist acts... they look like terrorist acts, therefore evoking terror... They don't try to make them look like accidents.

I'm of the opinion that Flight 800 over Long Island was taken down by a SAM launched from a boat.

Because of the government spin on it, that one looked like an 'accident'.

Same might apply here.

33 posted on 08/11/2005 12:21:47 PM PDT by Lazamataz (Islam is merely Nazism without the snappy fashion sense.)
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To: Lazamataz

I see no motive for the government to hide terrorism.

I've seen not success with any coverup involving more than one person actually remaining secret.


34 posted on 08/11/2005 12:23:29 PM PDT by HairOfTheDog (Join the Hobbit Hole Troop Support - http://freeper.the-hobbit-hole.net/)
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To: Southack

VERY, VERY interesting. Good heads up my friend.


35 posted on 08/11/2005 12:23:31 PM PDT by Alex Marko
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To: Southack

if nothing else....this certainly is interesting read and research


36 posted on 08/11/2005 12:24:04 PM PDT by wallcrawlr (http://www.bionicear.com)
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To: Southack



Good post - Practice flight?

Other larger aircraft in mind?


Heat-seekers mounted on small private aircraft for higher altitudes?




And later - the nutty kid who attacked a Florida bank - I believe -





37 posted on 08/11/2005 12:25:17 PM PDT by devolve (------- http://tinypic.com/a47v9u.gif --American Immigration ---- Good-Bad-or-Ugly?-- -)
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To: HairOfTheDog
I see no motive for the government to hide terrorism.

Actually, you DID see the motive for said subterfuge.

After 9/11, there was a complete shutdown of all civilian aviation for a few days, and a multi-billion dollar impact on the economy for years thereafter.

Governments HATE multi-billion dollar impacts on the economy.

38 posted on 08/11/2005 12:26:53 PM PDT by Lazamataz (Islam is merely Nazism without the snappy fashion sense.)
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To: devolve
And later - the nutty kid who attacked a Florida bank - I believe

I was just about to post about the Florida kid who flew the plane into the Bank of America building. I always thought he was a terrorist in training. Another unresolved mystery.

39 posted on 08/11/2005 12:26:58 PM PDT by freeperfromnj
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To: Southack
the Saudi national who piloted his aircraft into the Piper Aztec commercial flight

This isn't clear from what is posted. The Aztec is described as the faster plane, and and the damage from its propellers were to the underside of the smaller plane. Thus it appears that the larger plane was approaching from behind and below. Also note that the controller said, " the system failed because the pilots did not see each other and the pilot of the Aztec did not see the Cherokee. . " Of course, the controller kept telling the pilot of the Aztec to look left, when it appears that the smaller plane was in front and above.

You also make much of the 'commercial' nature of the Aztec. Do you know how many seats this 'commercial' plane has? (Usually 6, sometimes 5).

40 posted on 08/11/2005 12:29:50 PM PDT by PAR35
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To: Southack
Evidence found in a rental car left in Portland, Maine, led investigators to two houses in Vero Beach, Florida. One had been rented by two brothers from Saudi Arabia.

In Vero Beach, FBI agents searched four homes in three neighborhoods, according to witnesses.

A tenant in one of those houses, Adnan Bukhari, was cooperating with the federal agents, sources said.

Bukhari's brother, Ameer Bukhari, died in a small plane crash in Florida last year, according to a lawyer for the family.

Federal sources had initially identified the brothers as possible hijackers who had boarded one of the planes that originated in Boston.
Their names had been tied to a car founded at an airport in Portland, Maine.
But Bukhari's attorney said it appeared their identifications were stolen and said Bukhari had no role in the hijackings.

Information found in another rental car left in Boston's Logan Airport -- where two of the hijacked flights
originated -- led investigators to two more men who were pilots: Mohammed Atta and Marwan Yousef Alshehhii.
http://archives.cnn.com/2001/US/09/12/investigation.terrorism/

41 posted on 08/11/2005 12:30:46 PM PDT by Velveeta
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To: freeperfromnj

Police: Tampa pilot voiced support for bin Laden

Crash into bank building a suicide, officials say

January 7, 2002 Posted: 1:07 PM EST (1807 GMT)

Wreckage from a Cessna 172 aircraft hangs from a skyscraper in Tampa, Florida.
Wreckage from a Cessna 172 aircraft hangs from a skyscraper in Tampa, Florida.  


TAMPA, Florida (CNN) -- A note written by the 15-year-old boy who crashed a Cessna into a Tampa office building indicated he supported Osama bin Laden and that the act was deliberate, authorities say.

Charles J. Bishop, who took the plane on an unauthorized flight across Tampa Bay, died at the scene of Saturday's crash into the 42-story Bank of America Plaza building. He apparently made no attempt to avoid the structure, witnesses said.

42 posted on 08/11/2005 12:31:19 PM PDT by Southack (Media Bias means that Castro won't be punished for Cuban war crimes against Black Angolans in Africa)
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To: Jersey Republican Biker Chick

Thanks for the ping, Biker Chick!


43 posted on 08/11/2005 12:32:17 PM PDT by blackie (Be Well~Be Armed~Be Safe~Molon Labe!)
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To: HairOfTheDog
I've seen not success with any coverup involving more than one person actually remaining secret.

Well duh, by definition, any successful cover-up would require that you NOT know about it unless you were one of the conspirators.

44 posted on 08/11/2005 12:33:12 PM PDT by Sloth (History's greatest monsters: Hitler, Stalin, Mao & Durbin)
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To: leadpenny; Southack
The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident as follows:

Failure of local controller to provide adequate spacing between two airplanes that resulted in a midair collision.

I might add that the report indicates that the weather was clear and VFR, therefore, both pilots had a duty to "see and be seen". I lost a Mooney M-20 with my step-dad and his friend aboard, a WWII B-25 pilot, in a midair collision with a Piper PA-28 over the California Mojave Desert in the early eighties. The skies were clear. The NTSB's conclusion was that the pilot who hit the Mooney was at the wrong altitude for the direction of flight and inexperienced (less than 500hrs). FWIW, I don't see anything in this report other than human error and the coincidence that one pilot was an Arab and the the incident happened on 9-11-2000. More coincidental than providential.

45 posted on 08/11/2005 12:33:35 PM PDT by elbucko
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To: blackie

You are welcome!!


46 posted on 08/11/2005 12:34:03 PM PDT by Jersey Republican Biker Chick (People too weak to follow their own dreams, will always find a way to discourage yours.)
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To: Southack

Thanks


47 posted on 08/11/2005 12:34:22 PM PDT by freeperfromnj
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To: Velveeta
Nice catch.

Evidence found in a rental car left in Portland, Maine, led investigators to two houses in Vero Beach, Florida. One had been rented by two brothers from Saudi Arabia.
In Vero Beach, FBI agents searched four homes in three neighborhoods, according to witnesses.

A tenant in one of those houses, Adnan Bukhari, was cooperating with the federal agents, sources said.

Bukhari's brother, Ameer Bukhari, died in a small plane crash in Florida last year, according to a lawyer for the family.

48 posted on 08/11/2005 12:34:38 PM PDT by Southack (Media Bias means that Castro won't be punished for Cuban war crimes against Black Angolans in Africa)
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To: Southack

bump for later read


49 posted on 08/11/2005 12:35:11 PM PDT by Texans
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To: Southack; Velveeta

And of course, let's not forget the Egyptian suicide pilot.


50 posted on 08/11/2005 12:36:42 PM PDT by freeperfromnj
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