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Two school districts embroiled in racial tug of war (this one has it all: choice, naacp, money tug)
Houston Chronicle ^ | August 13, 2005 | JENNIFER RADCLIFFE and RENEE C. LEE

Posted on 08/13/2005 12:54:13 AM PDT by Cincinatus' Wife

"This is an education flee. They're running to get an education. It's not about race or color," said Tim Johnson, a 1985 graduate of Hearne High, whose 13-year-old son attends Mumford. "I feel sorry for the kids that are (at Hearne) and cannot get out and go somewhere else."

"It was awful," said Reed, adding that teachers were starting to organize to home-school children who didn't want to attend Hearne schools.

MUMFORD - About 70 white students were turned away from their schools here for two days this week as their parents, school administrators and civil rights attorneys fought the latest round in a racially charged legal battle between two small-town Central Texas school districts.

A ruling Friday will allow the students, who had transferred from lower-performing schools in nearby Hearne, to return to their classrooms in Mumford on Monday.

The 5th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals granted an emergency stay to allow the transfer students to remain until a hearing in early October. Students, some of whom have attended the 460-

student Mumford district since kindergarten, were banned earlier this week, after U.S. District Judge William Wayne Justice ruled that their transfers violated federal desegregation laws by significantly altering the racial makeup of the school districts.

Relieved parents cheered, cried and hugged when they heard the news at the Mumford Middle School library.

"Thank God. He was listening," said parent Kristy Watson. "He knew it was wrong to deny kids a safe and good education."

The two Robertson County school districts have been at odds since Hearne filed a lawsuit in 2003 in U.S. District Court in Tyler claiming that Mumford was aggressively recruiting its white students. According to federal law, schools cannot purposely take steps to change their racial makeup.

The 110-square-mile Hearne district, which is 25 miles from Texas A&M University, has seen its enrollment drop by about 400 from 1993 to 2003. Nearly 300 of those students were white, according to Texas Education Agency records.

During that same decade, Mumford added 313 students, including 137 white students, according to state documents.

"We complained and said they're taking a whole bunch of our kids," said attorney Roger Hepworth, who is representing Hearne. "They run their buses right into our district and pick them all up."

School districts in Texas receive at least $5,500 in state funding for each child enrolled.

High transfer rates While 83 school-age children lived within Mumford's boundaries in 2002, state records show 391 students transferred into the district that year. Many of the students improperly claimed hardship exemptions to transfer, TEA officials said.

As the district increased its enrollment with transfer students, it built three new schools and stocked them with computers, televisions and VCRs.

Hearne Superintendent David Deaver was hoping some of those students would return to his schools when classes resume Wednesday in Hearne. He's frustrated with the enrollment drain.

"It's been a disruption since 1990," Deaver said. "In the past 14 years, it's hurt us to the tune of $81.6 million."

While two-thirds of Robertson County is white, nearly 60 percent of the Hearne school district is black. Officials said the high transfer rates are further proof of "white flight."

"We draw our suspicions from Mumford's actions," said David Hinojosa, a staff attorney with Mexican American Legal Defense and Educational Fund. "Courts have a job to remove segregation by root and branch. ... We're intrigued and anticipate a fair argument before the 5th Circuit."

MALDEF and the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People have joined the legal team representing Hearne officials because the case involves desegregation laws.

Some parents say they transfer their students because Hearne schools are dangerous and don't do a good job of educating students.

In ratings released Thursday, the Hearne district and three of its four campuses failed to make "adequate yearly progress" — academic improvement required under the federal No Child Left Behind Act. Mumford and all of its campuses made the mandated progress.

"This is an education flee. They're running to get an education. It's not about race or color," said Tim Johnson, a 1985 graduate of Hearne High, whose 13-year-old son attends Mumford. "I feel sorry for the kids that are (at Hearne) and cannot get out and go somewhere else."

White transfer students attended classes Wednesday, the Mumford district's first day, but were turned away Thursday and Friday.

Students' views Mumford High School math teacher Ralph Reed said it turned his stomach to have to send students home. The legal fight has really strained the start of the school year, the veteran teacher said.

"It was awful," said Reed, adding that teachers were starting to organize to home-school children who didn't want to attend Hearne schools.

Kelsey Watson, a Mumford eighth-grader, said she was upset when her mother told her she could not return to school because of the court order.

"I didn't understand why only white students," she said. "It shouldn't matter about race. My mother sent me here for a good education."

She said she didn't know how to answer friends who called every day asking when she would come back to school.

Senior Shawna McGarry, who was not affected by the order, said she is thrilled her friends will be returning.

"Our school is my family," she said. "You can't take away a small part of our family and it not affect everybody. It's our support system."

Reed said the community is willing to argue the case to the U.S. Supreme Court. "This is an issue that needs to be resolved because it has implications for the entire America," he said. "If it can happen here, it can happen anywhere."

Reed and others said that Mumford didn't need to recruit for students. The district's small classes, good facilities and strong academic programs speak for themselves, he said.

"It kind of leaked out by word of mouth. There was no effort to do that. Kids just started to show up," he said. "Two facts still remain clear: That Mumford is a good school and that Hearne is not. The choice is clear."

Mumford Superintendent Peter Bienski warned the fight is not over. "I think that we have to maintain a positive attitude and we have to believe we will be successful in this case. Parents have to continue to express their views and let the public know what's happening."

Renee C. Lee reported from Mumford. Jennifer Radcliffe reported from Houston.

jennifer.radcliffe@chron.com renee.lee@chron.com


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Front Page News; Government; News/Current Events; US: Texas
KEYWORDS: education; maldef; naacp; nclb; pspl; schoolchoice; segregation
LIBERALS are trying to make this a racial issue, when in fact it is an education issue. I think this one is headed to the Supreme Court. It will have major implications on school choice.

This story two years ago: Schools at odds in racial division - Hearne ISD sues nearby Mumford for "white flight"***........The accusations of racism sting, said Mumford Superintendent Pete Bienski Jr.

Mumford's growth has never been about race or money, but about educating children, he said. To prove it, Bienski has his own statistics.

Of the 342 students who transferred to Mumford last year, 268 came from Hearne. Of the Hearne transfers, 156 were black or Hispanic.

"This is not a white school. We take all kids," Bienski said. "People come to Mumford because they know they are getting a better education. We don't recruit kids. Parents do our recruiting for us by word of mouth."

Bienski doesn't deny that Mumford relies on the state aid it receives for the transfers, but he insists that has not been the secret to the school district's recent success. Mumford has been successful, Bienski says, because it does more with less.

There is some evidence of that.

Bienski serves not only as the school district superintendent, but also as the principal of all three campuses. When the district began its aggressive building campaign in 1997, Bienski served as the general contractor, saving the district millions of dollars. The district owns all three campuses outright.

The school district stocked its computer labs by taking advantage of grant programs. When it launched its high school a few years ago, it focused on academics and avoided costly athletic programs such as football. ....***

1 posted on 08/13/2005 12:54:15 AM PDT by Cincinatus' Wife
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To: Cincinatus' Wife
"We complained and said they're taking a whole bunch of our kids," said attorney Roger Hepworth, who is representing Hearne. "They run their buses right into our district and pick them all up."

School districts in Texas receive at least $5,500 in state funding for each child enrolled.

Uh huh... I thought so. Follow the money.

2 posted on 08/13/2005 1:01:52 AM PDT by clee1 (We use 43 muscles to frown, 17 to smile, and 2 to pull a trigger. I'm lazy and I'm tired of smiling.)
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To: Cincinatus' Wife

So if I get this right, the white kids are tranferring to a school dist. with fewer black kids because their old district is too dangerous and they are not getting a good education.


What's the problem?


3 posted on 08/13/2005 1:04:08 AM PDT by trubluolyguy (The defense of our nation should begin at the borders...Mr President?.....George?)
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To: clee1
Yes! LIBERALS want the money and the bodies to bring it in.

Look at how Mumford tightened its belt and stretched their money! (Post#1)

4 posted on 08/13/2005 1:05:02 AM PDT by Cincinatus' Wife
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To: trubluolyguy

It's more than that. Read the end of the story and Post #1. As usual, the msm hides the other side at the end of the article.


5 posted on 08/13/2005 1:06:12 AM PDT by Cincinatus' Wife
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To: Cincinatus' Wife

I saw that.

Liberals get absolutely livid when their indoctrination schemes and/or tax dollar fleecing goes awry.


6 posted on 08/13/2005 1:11:50 AM PDT by clee1 (We use 43 muscles to frown, 17 to smile, and 2 to pull a trigger. I'm lazy and I'm tired of smiling.)
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To: Cincinatus' Wife
Your absolutely right.

Is it wrong for a parent of any color to want the best education for their child.

Evidently the one school wasn't doing a very good job at teaching their students.

Since this was written by the Houston Crapnonical I would bet this is not the real story.

Maybe the one school is eat up with political correctness.

What ever, I would be interested in seeing their pupil test scores and evaluations.

I think personally that it is unconscionable for any student to attend a school where they can not receive a quality education.

Check this out and let us know if there is more information as to why students really made transfers.
7 posted on 08/13/2005 1:13:21 AM PDT by OKIEDOC (There's nothing like hearing someone say thank you for your help.)
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To: clee1

They certainly do!

NEA and local school unions are going to fight this tooth and nail. Who knows, in time this could lead to demands that qualified teachers inhabit classrooms not just union members.


8 posted on 08/13/2005 1:14:50 AM PDT by Cincinatus' Wife
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To: OKIEDOC

There's some more in the LINKED article.


9 posted on 08/13/2005 1:15:52 AM PDT by Cincinatus' Wife
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To: Cincinatus' Wife
Bienski serves not only as the school district superintendent, but also as the principal of all three campuses. When the district began its aggressive building campaign in 1997, Bienski served as the general contractor, saving the district millions of dollars. The district owns all three campuses outright.

Hearns needs on of these.
10 posted on 08/13/2005 1:28:44 AM PDT by carumba
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To: OKIEDOC; Dr. Marten
I found more on the initial ruling that the 5th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals granted an emergency stay:

August 10, 2005 Judge Orders Whites to Attend Black School***Hundreds of students who have transferred from Hearne to the Mumford Independent School District will have to go home to reverse an illegal "white flight" trend that has segregated the districts, according to a ruling delivered out of a federal court in Tyler last week.

In the 110-page document, Senior U.S. District Court Judge William Wayne Justice described Mumford as maintaining a "pattern of fraudulent conduct" in past years as it solicited transfers from Hearne, increasing its enrollment of white students over a 10-year period by 3,540 percent.

The lawsuit was filed by the Hearne school district and three of its students in July 2003. It was based, in part, on the argument that Mumford's actions have been in direct contrast to "No. 5821" - shorthand for a 1970 civil case that stated "no student in Texas will be effectively excluded from equal educational opportunities based on race, color or national origin."

"Mumford has shown consistent and persistent willingness to circumvent the requirements of No. 5281 whenever possible," Justice wrote in the Thursday ruling.

The judge's ruling permanently bars the Texas Education Agency from funding transfers to Mumford that "reduce or impeded racial desegregation at Hearne Independent School District." Districts receive about $5,500 funding from the agency for each student.

Mumford also was ordered to no longer host Hearne students currently attending its schools.

In addition, Justice ordered the TEA to assign a monitor to Mumford to ensure compliance with the ruling from now until the end of the 2007-08 school year.

In response to the accusations, Mumford had argued that "it cannot be determined that [the district's] acceptance of transfers has had a segregative effect on Hearne," according to court documents.

However, Justice sternly dismissed the contention, accusing the school district of apparently having a "misunderstanding of basic arithmetic."....***

11 posted on 08/13/2005 1:30:45 AM PDT by Cincinatus' Wife
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To: Born Conservative

Home school ping please.


12 posted on 08/13/2005 1:31:22 AM PDT by Cincinatus' Wife
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To: carumba

Yes. How dare they be fiscally responsible and TEACH too!


13 posted on 08/13/2005 1:32:02 AM PDT by Cincinatus' Wife
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To: Cincinatus' Wife
I suspect this is also very much a William Wayne Justice problem, too; he'd rubber stamp anything the liberals brought him.

If that's the case, the Fifth Circuit will slap him down in short order. They're not handy with emergency stay orders, so we're on a roll.

Not to change the subject, but is anyone hollering about making the Hearne school worth attending? Maybe a regime change? Superintendent/Principal x 3/General Contractor/Cost Cutter Bienski sounds like my kind of school administrator--do they have any more of him?

There must be people of many races stuck in the district and unable to transfer; why aren't they raising Cain over their own district's management? Surely they're not all backing this shakedown!

14 posted on 08/13/2005 1:47:52 AM PDT by umbagi (Monthly donor [entry level])
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To: All

HEARNE ISD
198-905
REGION 06 mail:
900 WHEELOCK ST
HEARNE 77859-3096
site:
900 WHEELOCK ST
HEARNE 77859-3096
phone:
(979) 279-3200
fax:
(979) 279-3631
email:
ddeaver@hearne.k12.tx.us
url:
www.hearne.k12.tx.us


DAVID DEAVER 1229
MUMFORD ISD
198-906
REGION 06 mail:
P O BOX 268
MUMFORD 77867-0268
site:
F M #50
MUMFORD 77867-0268
phone:
(979) 279-3678
fax:
(979) 279-5044
email:
pbienski@mumford.k12.tx.us
url:
www.mumford.k12.tx.us/
PETE J BIENSKI JR 463


15 posted on 08/13/2005 1:50:52 AM PDT by Cincinatus' Wife
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To: umbagi
Exactly!

As noted in Post #1 .....Of the 342 students who transferred to Mumford last year, 268 came from Hearne. Of the Hearne transfers, 156 were black or Hispanic. ......

But Judge Justice (good Lord) can't buck the LIBERALS.

16 posted on 08/13/2005 1:54:02 AM PDT by Cincinatus' Wife
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To: OKIEDOC; All

2006 DISTRICT NAME: MUMFORD ISD
DISTRICT NUMBER: 198906
ACCOUNTABILITY RATING: Academically Acceptable
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

SUMMARY

ACCOUNTABILITY RATINGS

NUMBER
OF
CAMPUS RATING: SCHOOLS

EXEMPLARY 0
RECOGNIZED 2
ACADEMICALLY ACCEPTABLE 0
ACADEMICALLY UNACCEPTABLE 0
AEA: ACADEMICALLY ACCEPTABLE 0
AEA: ACADEMICALLY UNACCEPTABLE 0
NOT RATED: OTHER 0
___

TOTAL 2
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Campus Name Links to the Accountability Data Table

CAMPUS LIST (in campus number order)

CAMPUS RATING COMMENTS

001 MUMFORD H S Recognized
101 MUMFORD EL Recognized

Total Count = 2


17 posted on 08/13/2005 1:57:15 AM PDT by Cincinatus' Wife
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To: OKIEDOC; All

2005 DISTRICT ACCOUNTABILITY SUMMARY
District Name Links to the Accountability Data Table

DISTRICT NAME: HEARNE ISD
DISTRICT NUMBER: 198905
ACCOUNTABILITY RATING: Academically Acceptable
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

SUMMARY

ACCOUNTABILITY RATINGS

NUMBER
OF
CAMPUS RATING: SCHOOLS

EXEMPLARY 0
RECOGNIZED 0
ACADEMICALLY ACCEPTABLE 4
ACADEMICALLY UNACCEPTABLE 0
AEA: ACADEMICALLY ACCEPTABLE 0
AEA: ACADEMICALLY UNACCEPTABLE 0
NOT RATED: OTHER 0
___

TOTAL 4
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Campus Name Links to the Accountability Data Table

CAMPUS LIST (in campus number order)

CAMPUS RATING COMMENTS

002 HEARNE H S Academically Acceptable
042 HEARNE J H Academically Acceptable
102 EAST SIDE EL Academically Acceptable PAIRED WITH 103
103 BLACKSHEAR EL Academically Acceptable


18 posted on 08/13/2005 1:58:30 AM PDT by Cincinatus' Wife
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To: Cincinatus' Wife
Does Judge Justice really think by denying these students the education of the better school their parents will re-enroll them in the failing and dangerous school? I think there will very shortly be an affordable private school in Hearne.
19 posted on 08/13/2005 2:12:46 AM PDT by Betty Jane
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To: All
For accountability: Texas Education Agency Click on "2005 Accountability: List by District" in top right list.

Once there choose "District by Region Number" and enter 06 and "continue"

There you will be able to pull down Mumford and Hearne.

At the bottom of each district recap, you can click on individual schools and get the racial break down and how they preform.

Interesting that when they choose to, they put an * to "protect student confidentiality." Check for yourself what they're really protecting.

20 posted on 08/13/2005 2:17:55 AM PDT by Cincinatus' Wife
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To: Betty Jane

When the public school teachers are helping the affected students start homeschooling, you know this is a battle to the end.


21 posted on 08/13/2005 2:19:14 AM PDT by Cincinatus' Wife
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To: Cincinatus' Wife
Good Lord, folks, give these parents a choice between a fairly good school district and a pretty bad school district, and look what they do.

We just got too much choosin' goin' on out there.
22 posted on 08/13/2005 2:43:58 AM PDT by Stegall Tx (This space intentionally left blank.)
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To: Stegall Tx
We just got too much choosin' goin' on out there.

Before you know it, everyone will want out!

23 posted on 08/13/2005 2:50:02 AM PDT by Cincinatus' Wife
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Comment #24 Removed by Moderator

To: Cincinatus' Wife

"Bienski serves not only as the school district superintendent, but also as the principal of all three campuses. When the district began its aggressive building campaign in 1997, Bienski served as the general contractor, saving the district millions of dollars. The district owns all three campuses outright."

This guy needs to run for State Office, perhaps Lt. Governor.


25 posted on 08/13/2005 4:10:29 AM PDT by neb52
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To: neb52

Yes!

We need Bienski clones.


26 posted on 08/13/2005 4:26:59 AM PDT by Cincinatus' Wife
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To: umbagi

"but is anyone hollering about making the Hearne school worth attending"

Careful now, saying things like that might make them have to take responsibility instead of playing the victim to the evil white man. It wouldn't be the liberal way!


27 posted on 08/13/2005 4:54:47 AM PDT by bk1000 (A clear conscience is a sure sign of a poor memory)
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To: Cincinatus' Wife

My daughters' home-schooled basketball team plays against both these school districts. The Mumford games are always VERY close, last year our Varsity girls beat them for the first time in an over-time thriller. I can't help but wonder how all this will affect basketball...... </sar>


28 posted on 08/13/2005 6:20:41 AM PDT by Day Kay
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To: Cincinatus' Wife
Reed and others said that Mumford didn't need to recruit for students. The district's small classes, good facilities and strong academic programs speak for themselves, he said.

Perhaps Hearne should take the hint and do something to attract students. Then again, it is easier to go to court.

29 posted on 08/13/2005 6:37:00 AM PDT by Logophile
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To: Cincinatus' Wife

Try a home schooling thing, folks: http://www.k12.com/options/explore_results.html


30 posted on 08/13/2005 6:50:57 AM PDT by combat_boots (Dug in and not budging an inch. NOT to be schiavoed, greered, or felosed as a patient)
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To: kenth; CatoRenasci; Marie; PureSolace; Congressman Billybob; P.O.E.; cupcakes; Amelia; Dianna; ...

31 posted on 08/13/2005 7:25:39 AM PDT by Born Conservative ("If not us, who? And if not now, when? - Ronald Reagan)
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To: Cincinatus' Wife
"We complained and said they're taking a whole bunch of our kids," said attorney Roger Hepworth,

Our kids? Do you send their mother's child support dear? If not then they aren't your kids.

32 posted on 08/13/2005 7:29:09 AM PDT by Harmless Teddy Bear (When I walk into Sanctuary the band plays "Sweet Home Alabama")
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To: Cincinatus' Wife

A ruling Friday will allow the students, who had transferred from lower-performing schools in nearby Hearne, to return to their classrooms in Mumford on Monday.

The 5th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals granted an emergency stay to allow the transfer students to remain until a hearing in early October. Students, some of whom have attended the 460-

student Mumford district since kindergarten, were banned earlier this week, after U.S. District Judge William Wayne Justice ruled that their transfers violated federal desegregation laws by significantly altering the racial makeup of the school districts.


Under the No Child Left Behind Act this is not supposed to matter. This legislation allows parents of under-performing schools to transfer to better ones.


33 posted on 08/13/2005 8:06:21 AM PDT by MissEdie
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To: Cincinatus' Wife

BUMP!!


34 posted on 08/13/2005 8:15:43 AM PDT by Lancey Howard
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To: bk1000
Careful now, saying things like that might make them have to take responsibility instead of playing the victim to the evil white man.

Just as there are white and black liberals feeding (and feeding on) the divisions in our communities, there are also responsible people of all races working to stop this sort of thing.

The media plays up, encourages, and then thrives on racial and economic division, seeding it where convenient, and many local governments and officials do the same (Austin's City Manager is prime example).

We conservatives need to attack those evils, and support the elements working for change and accountability.

35 posted on 08/13/2005 10:04:10 AM PDT by umbagi (Monthly donor [entry level])
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To: willstayfree
It would be interesting.

I believe one of the arguments in the fifties was that integrating blacks into white schools would lower the standards and expectations for students and schools.

From what I can gleam from the nightly news a Black child's worst enemy is their chosen leaders.

Race baiter's such as Jessie Jackson, Al Sharpton, NAACP, ACLU, Shabazz, Louis Farrakan, Harry Belefonte, John Conyers, Barbara Lee, Congressional Black Congress, Most Liberals and of course Rap Music are doing more harm than any amount of good schools can fix.

Black leaders say they want the best for their people but it is in their interest to keep their people bare foot, ignorant and addicted to the plantation.

These leaders know that it is hard to preach hate when a person is doing well in life.
36 posted on 08/13/2005 10:19:33 AM PDT by OKIEDOC (There's nothing like hearing someone say thank you for your help.)
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To: Betty Jane
Does Judge Justice really think by denying these students the education of the better school their parents will re-enroll them in the failing and dangerous school?

Yes, he does...he is a total liberal activist judge....and one of he most hated men in Texas! ..He is the poster child for why federal judges should not be appointed for life
37 posted on 08/13/2005 7:30:46 PM PDT by TexanByBirth
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To: Born Conservative

Thanks!


38 posted on 08/15/2005 2:26:21 AM PDT by Cincinatus' Wife
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To: umbagi
........The media plays up, encourages, and then thrives on racial and economic division, seeding it where convenient, and many local governments and officials do the same (Austin's City Manager is prime example). We conservatives need to attack those evils, and support the elements working for change and accountability. ...

Bump!

39 posted on 08/15/2005 2:27:15 AM PDT by Cincinatus' Wife
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To: Cincinatus' Wife

Your welcome!


40 posted on 08/15/2005 3:19:46 AM PDT by Born Conservative ("If not us, who? And if not now, when? - Ronald Reagan)
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To: Cincinatus' Wife
This one is about power and ownership. The Hearne distruct idiots clearly feel they own the rights to those kids.

Similarly under the CCCP, in order to move from Moscow to St. Petersburg (or any other city for that matter), a person had to find another person in St. Petersburg who wanted to move to Moscow. Otherwise the Mayor of Moscow would be faced with the situation that his old buddy, the mayor of St. Petersburg, had just gone one up on him. The basic idea in play was literally a medieval conception of ownership leftover from the days of serfdom, and that is also clearly what is happening in those Houston school districts.

41 posted on 08/15/2005 3:22:51 AM PDT by tamalejoe
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To: tamalejoe

Great analogy.


42 posted on 08/15/2005 3:36:14 AM PDT by Cincinatus' Wife
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To: Cincinatus' Wife
I've heard that from Russians, and I don't think anybody could make anything like that up. Aside from the problems of communism, Russia had just thrown off serfdom around the same time we outlawed slavery and there were medieval customs and usages left lying around which a modern democracy would have gotten rid of but which thrived under communism.

The language still contains medieval usages. Something like "A tui menya naKARkal" = "You jinxed me!" is basically crow/raven language ( "karrr, karrr....") and not Russian, and arises because humans cannot pronounce real curses (according to Russian custom) so that a wizard (volshebnik) wishing to put a serious curse on somebody would need to have his pet raven pronounce the curse (or jinx).

Cute, huh?

43 posted on 08/15/2005 6:55:54 AM PDT by tamalejoe
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To: tamalejoe
Cincinatus is the Russian expert in this family - speaks it a bit too.

I know they had to (may still have to) stand in line to get a ticket to get in another line to get things like toilet paper.

Very superstitious too.
44 posted on 08/15/2005 7:02:08 AM PDT by Cincinatus' Wife
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To: Cincinatus' Wife

You might want to get that thought about the mayors of Moscow and St. Petersburg to the people at MUMFORD if you have any way to do that; they might could use it in the courtroom.


45 posted on 08/15/2005 8:40:06 AM PDT by tamalejoe
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To: tamalejoe

Not a bad idea.


46 posted on 08/15/2005 10:01:07 AM PDT by Cincinatus' Wife
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