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Muslims unite! A new Reformation will bring your faith into the modern era
timesonline ^ | 8/11/2005 | Salmon Rushdie

Posted on 08/17/2005 4:32:08 PM PDT by abu afak

WHEN Sir Iqbal Sacranie, head of the Muslim Council of Britain, admitted that “our own children” had perpetrated the July 7 London bombings, it was the first time in my memory that a British Muslim had accepted his community’s responsibility for outrages committed by its members.

Instead of blaming US foreign policy or “Islamophobia”, Sacranie described the bombings as a “profound challenge” for the Muslim community. However, this is the same Sacranie who, in 1989, said that “Death is perhaps too easy” for the author of The Satanic Verses. Tony Blair’s decision to knight him and treat him as the acceptable face of “moderate”, “traditional” Islam is either a sign of his Government’s penchant for religious appeasement or a demonstration of how limited Mr Blair’s options really are.

Sacranie is a strong advocate of Mr Blair’s much-criticised new religious hatred Bill that will make it harder to criticise religion, and actually expects the new law to outlaw references to Islamic terrorism. He said as recently as January 13: “There is no such thing as an Islamic terrorist. This is deeply offensive. Saying Muslims are terrorists would be covered [ie, banned] by this provision.” Two weeks later his organisation boycotted a Holocaust remembrance ceremony in London, commemorating the liberation of Auschwitz 60 years ago. If Sir Iqbal Sacranie is the best Mr Blair can offer in the way of a good Muslim, we have a problem. ...."

The rest above

(Excerpt) Read more at timesonline.co.uk ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Editorial; Extended News; Foreign Affairs; Israel; Philosophy; Politics/Elections; United Kingdom; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: islam; islamicreform; islamicreformation; pipedream; reformation; religion; salmonrushdie

1 posted on 08/17/2005 4:32:08 PM PDT by abu afak
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To: abu afak
He said as recently as January 13: “There is no such thing as an Islamic terrorist. This is deeply offensive. Saying Muslims are terrorists would be covered [ie, banned] by this provision.”

Wanna Bet on this Igbal?

2 posted on 08/17/2005 4:35:06 PM PDT by rocksblues (I support the war on terror)
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To: abu afak
Muslims Unite

No thanks. That causes problems.
3 posted on 08/17/2005 4:39:35 PM PDT by Borges
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To: abu afak

Gotta admire the guy's chutzpah.


4 posted on 08/17/2005 4:42:49 PM PDT by Tax-chick (Officially around the bend, at least for now.)
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To: abu afak

Oy, reformation, schmeforation. Why don't they just convert to Christianity, its more advanced than moon-boy.


5 posted on 08/17/2005 4:46:00 PM PDT by evolved_rage (I've done it now.......)
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To: abu afak
"... good Muslim..."

*

6 posted on 08/17/2005 4:47:15 PM PDT by Michael Goldsberry (an enemy of islam -- Joe Boucher; Leapfrog; Dr.Zoidberg; Lazamataz; ...)
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To: abu afak

After reading the Quran it is painfully obvious that it is not the literal "word of god"
but the rantings of a seventh century merchant who was diluded into believing he was a prophet.
He may have been schizophrenic.

As Mr. Rushdie so eloquently asks in the article;
Why would God be influenced by the socioeconomics of 7th-century Arabia, after all? Why would the Messenger’s personal circumstances have anything to do with the Message?


7 posted on 08/17/2005 4:49:27 PM PDT by homewithkids
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To: abu afak
The main problem with Muslim reformers is that they typically wind up with their heads separated from their bodies by their fellow jihadists.
8 posted on 08/17/2005 4:51:08 PM PDT by Prime Choice (E=mc^3. Don't drink and derive.)
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To: homewithkids
As Mr. Rushdie so eloquently asks in the article; Why would God be influenced by the socioeconomics of 7th-century Arabia, after all? Why would the Messenger’s personal circumstances have anything to do with the Message?

And isn't it interesting how the "peaceful, tolerant Muslims" won't lift a finger to have the bounty on Rushie's head removed?

I am always leery of any group that goes nonlinear when faced with constructive criticism.

9 posted on 08/17/2005 4:53:08 PM PDT by Prime Choice (E=mc^3. Don't drink and derive.)
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To: Prime Choice; SJackson; Alouette
"""As Mr. Rushdie so eloquently asks in the article; Why would God be influenced by the socioeconomics of 7th-century Arabia, after all? Why would the Messenger’s personal circumstances have anything to do with the Message?"""

The Koran Reads like a War Manual in Parts and clearly we are looking at Mohammed's experience and not Divine revelation. In fact, The Koran changes with Mohammed's mood on many things like Jews and others as the conquest proceeds.

10 posted on 08/17/2005 5:01:39 PM PDT by abu afak (abuafak@yahoo.ie)
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To: abu afak

Mohammed was "the last prophet". There can be no reformation of Islam.

Those who seek reformation should scrap their faith in the bloodcult and return to the original Biblical texts or the New and/or Old Testaments as Christians or Jews.

Mohammed's religion is a religion of AN antiChrist as it is the only religion to recognize the existance of Jesus yet denies His divinity, His crucifixtion, and His resurrection. Mohammed has led the flock astray.

If they accept Christ, they should convert to Christianity, if they still reject Him, they should convert to Judaism.


11 posted on 08/17/2005 5:01:59 PM PDT by weegee (The Rovebaiting by DUAC must stop. It is nothing but a partisan witchhunt.)
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To: Prime Choice

As I understand it, the original bounty/fatwa on his head has been lifted. However there are some who have refused to accept that, so his life is still threatened.


12 posted on 08/17/2005 5:03:45 PM PDT by weegee (The Rovebaiting by DUAC must stop. It is nothing but a partisan witchhunt.)
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To: weegee
As I understand it, the original bounty/fatwa on his head has been lifted. However there are some who have refused to accept that, so his life is still threatened.

The fatwa was decreed by the Ayatollah Khomeini. Only his spiritual successor can lift it. None have.

13 posted on 08/17/2005 5:05:17 PM PDT by Prime Choice (E=mc^3. Don't drink and derive.)
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To: evolved_rage

My thoughts exactly. Could even see room for them to convert to Judaism (although they would still deny Christ).

Doubt that there are many muslims in the Middle East who survive converting from Islam to any other faith let alone many muslims who convert from Isalm to Judaism.


14 posted on 08/17/2005 5:06:19 PM PDT by weegee (The Rovebaiting by DUAC must stop. It is nothing but a partisan witchhunt.)
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To: weegee

Re: #11

LOL! Okay, okay... even though we're both on the same side with this issue, that was rife with inaccuracies.


15 posted on 08/17/2005 5:09:56 PM PDT by Michael Goldsberry (an enemy of islam -- Joe Boucher; Leapfrog; Dr.Zoidberg; Lazamataz; ...)
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To: homewithkids
After reading the Quran it is painfully obvious that it is not the literal "word of god" but the rantings of a seventh century merchant who was diluded into believing he was a prophet.

He may have been schizophrenic.

True. But in all honesty, reading the writings of the Apostle Paul can give the neutral observer the exact same impression.

16 posted on 08/17/2005 5:12:26 PM PDT by Mr. Jeeves ("Feelings are not a tool of cognition, therefore they are not a criterion of morality." -- Ayn Rand)
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To: Prime Choice

I agree and if you've read the Satanic Verses you would see that it is really for nothing.
The book is mediocre at best and never actually refers directly to mohammed but uses pseudonyms instead.


17 posted on 08/17/2005 5:15:32 PM PDT by homewithkids (no tags; just me)
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To: weegee
Mohammed's religion is a religion of AN antiChrist as it is the only religion to recognize the existance of Jesus yet denies His divinity, His crucifixtion, and His resurrection. Mohammed has led the flock astray.

Who is the one being that would want Jesus rejected by people and permanently separated from God?

Allah = Satan

18 posted on 08/17/2005 5:17:26 PM PDT by ThomasNast
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To: ThomasNast

True but I don't know if Mohammed is THE AntiChrist or just AN antiChrist.

Depends on how far his followers take this, I guess.


19 posted on 08/17/2005 5:22:26 PM PDT by weegee (The Rovebaiting by DUAC must stop. It is nothing but a partisan witchhunt.)
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To: abu afak
Islam and the 'modern era' are, no pun intended, fundamentally incompatible!
20 posted on 08/17/2005 5:37:12 PM PDT by Rummyfan
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To: homewithkids
Why would God be influenced by the socioeconomics of 7th-century Arabia, after all? Why would the Messenger’s personal circumstances have anything to do with the Message?

Well, far be it from me to question The Almighty, but I did want to observe it was a sh*t-hole in the 7TH century, and it's a sh*t-hole now!!!!

21 posted on 08/17/2005 5:39:02 PM PDT by Rummyfan
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To: homewithkids

The Satanic Verses is most certainly not a mediocre book. It might not be the easiest reading for some - lots of Bollwood/Hindi/Urdu slang and references to Islam might make it hard to understand - and the "magic realism" school of fiction might not be to everyone's taste. However, none of these things make it anything less than a very fine novel.

Quite frankly, I wonder if the Ayatollah Khomenei ever bothered to read it before condemning it and Rushdie. Without doubt, most of the people calling for Rushdie's head have never done so and probably don't have the faintest idea what the book is about. Their loss.


22 posted on 08/17/2005 5:39:15 PM PDT by AnotherUnixGeek
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To: Prime Choice
I am always leery of any group that goes nonlinear when faced with constructive criticism.

Definite sign of weaknees, insecurity, and fear of competing ideas.

23 posted on 08/17/2005 5:40:04 PM PDT by Rummyfan
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To: Mr. Jeeves

The Bible is not the literal Word of God but an account of the actions and deeds of the Hebrew and Christian God throughout history. It chronicles events that many believe are inspired by God. for example; Jesus was raised, prophets spoke, Israel was guided, Saul became Paul etc..
These are actions and events that give it authority.

The Quran claims authority by simply stating that it is the word of God. period.

For Muslims, the Qur'an comes directly and literally from God. It wasn't simply written down by inspired human authors, as is the case with the letters of Paul. No, the material in the Qur'an consists of the direct words of God. In a sense, the Qur'an is like an incarnation of God and is in some ways more akin to Jesus than the Bible.


24 posted on 08/17/2005 5:45:15 PM PDT by homewithkids (no tags; just me)
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To: weegee

Isn't there a Mahdi or 'Awaited One' in Islam? Maybe he can reform Islam.... of course maybe he is Jesus Christ and the reform of Islam will consist of conversion to Christianity. Seriously, though, they can't let go. Their father's-father's-father's-father's-.......father have been living a lie for fifteen-hundred years, a lie much more monstrous than any Lenin or Mao foisted on the people. For them to admit the lie is to negate their entire existence, but I don't see any other way. The Islamic culture, or Arab culture if you wish, is finished. We are witnessing it's death throes.


25 posted on 08/17/2005 5:45:29 PM PDT by Rummyfan
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To: AnotherUnixGeek

Unix,
Sorry to offend but I didn't think it was that great. But I believe it was/is a catalyst to a greater understanding of the extreme measures Islamists will take to censor any criticism of their religious beliefs.
For that reason alone it is a great book!
Peace!


26 posted on 08/17/2005 5:51:43 PM PDT by homewithkids (no tags; just me)
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To: weegee; All
Not out of any respect for islam or anything but referring to it as "moon-god" or satanism is pretty much comparable to calling evangelical christians the remnants of carnie barkers, spiritualists and proto-plasmic artists who went to where the money really was: tent revivals --> radio --> television.
Truth be told, Martin Luther, John Calvin or Henry VIII were more interested in self-indulgence than religion. Martin Luther, the world's second-most well-known disgruntled employee and nun seducer. Calvin couldn't get elected to a Swiss legislature. Henry VIII just was in a pissing war with the Pope.
Very few people walking this planet today worship any god as a result of deep thought and reflection. Although I'm sure everyone here is from a long line of towers of principle, standing up to their kings, refusing to change their beliefs at risk of their own life.
With about 1 billion slams and 2 billion Christians on Earth. The percentage of those with an educational level of say, higher than kindergarten is really not in the slams favor. Although no quarter should be given to them, they aren't well taught.
27 posted on 08/17/2005 6:03:11 PM PDT by olde north church (Man enough to pay for my own sins.)
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To: olde north church
To acknowledge Christ in a religious text and deny Him at the same time is of an antiChrist prophet. Teh founders of Islam rewrote passages of the Judeo-Christian Bible.

It is an honest presentation of the facts.

Although I made no reference to "moon god", muslims still use crescent moon imagery.
28 posted on 08/17/2005 6:12:49 PM PDT by weegee (The Rovebaiting by DUAC must stop. It is nothing but a partisan witchhunt.)
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To: abu afak

There are some who are trying to reform Islam from within.

http://www.secularislam.org


29 posted on 08/17/2005 6:23:59 PM PDT by homewithkids (no tags; just me)
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To: homewithkids
Sorry to offend but I didn't think it was that great.

Oh, no offense taken or meant by me either. People are entitled to like what they like - I just wanted to say a few words in defense of Rushdie's novel, which I found funny and good reading.
30 posted on 08/17/2005 6:28:18 PM PDT by AnotherUnixGeek
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To: homewithkids

SecularIslam (Great Site BTW.. have used it and other Former Muslim's, Ali Sina, FaithandFreedom.org) is the site of Ibn Warraq..
Former Muslim and Author of "Why I am Not a Muslim"..

But it is "from within" to some degree.. he just can't live with it the way it is and does not.


31 posted on 08/17/2005 6:31:11 PM PDT by abu afak (abuafak@yahoo.ie)
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To: abu afak

I know, I used to go to Ali Sina's faithfreedom.org alot but it seems that the site is no longer up.
Do you know what happened to it?


32 posted on 08/17/2005 6:40:45 PM PDT by homewithkids (no tags; just me)
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To: homewithkids

Looks like it's gone.

I was just reading their message board a few days ago; which looks gone now too!


33 posted on 08/17/2005 6:47:37 PM PDT by abu afak (abuafak@yahoo.ie)
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To: homewithkids

Google cache has the answer:

This site was suspended by our host Dreamhost.com because they say our CPU usage affects other sites. Basically, we are victim of success. When I signed up there was no mention of CPU usage but now they throw this as an excuse and don't even want to refund the balance. I have found a new host and will move this site there as soon as I complete the backup of all the forum. Since this site is going to be transferred to a new server, it may take up to 72 hours for some computers to pick it up again. Sorry for the inconvenience.

http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache:S13ADaPo5igJ:www.faithfreedom.org/+faithfreedom&hl=en


34 posted on 08/17/2005 7:19:10 PM PDT by No One Special
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To: weegee

Dude, I don't care if they even convert to a cult that worships tea-pots. Anything but slam


35 posted on 08/17/2005 8:35:14 PM PDT by Cronos (Never forget 9/11. Restore Hagia Sophia!)
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To: olde north church
Very few people walking this planet today worship any god as a result of deep thought and reflection.

Yep. And those folks aren't part of the problem. They aren't blowing up buses and spraying down crowds with machine gun fire in God's name.

36 posted on 08/17/2005 8:35:42 PM PDT by John Valentine
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To: abu afak

Screw it. It's time for Allah to die.


37 posted on 08/17/2005 8:36:40 PM PDT by Hank Rearden (Never allow anyone who could only get a government job attempt to tell you how to run your life.)
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To: No One Special

Thanks.. WE'LL BE BACK .. and thanks FOR that great site

faithfreedom.org


38 posted on 08/17/2005 8:50:25 PM PDT by abu afak (abuafak@yahoo.ie)
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To: weegee
John Effin' Kerry be damned for making connotations to nuance and subtlety a mockery but I don't think you and I are too far apart. I don't engage in discrimination of islam or the slammies, it's more of a mutual derision and antipathy.
I believe we are mistaken when we demonize or dismiss our enemy. They have infiltrated our society and learned of how our society works are using it against us. They made a calculation, it had one flaw. I'm not saying we start hanging out in mosques or Indo-pak markets but we better damn well start understanding their way of life and learning how to use it against them.
They don't mind dying for their cause. Fine, I wonder how they would feel about a few sex change operations. Turn a few Alis into Aileens. Let them know of what we are truly capable.
As far as the crescent moon imagery goes, think about the sign/symbol of the Cross, the fish, and the dove. I don't know if you're Roman Catholic but add incense and candles to the mix.
Your point about acknowledging Christ then denying Him His place, the same charge could be made by Zoroastrians and Mithrists, had the Romans after Constantine and the slammies not almost wiped them out.
39 posted on 08/18/2005 6:25:23 AM PDT by olde north church (Man enough to pay for my own sins.)
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To: John Valentine

Would you say the people who are engaging in deep thought and reflection are blowing up buses and machine-gunning innocent folks?


40 posted on 08/18/2005 6:27:01 AM PDT by olde north church (Man enough to pay for my own sins.)
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To: olde north church
Would you say the people who are engaging in deep thought and reflection are blowing up buses and machine-gunning innocent folks?

I certainly wouldn't but they would consider it so, for sure. My point was that people who don't take their religion particularly seriously won't blow themselves and others up for it.

41 posted on 08/18/2005 9:51:35 AM PDT by John Valentine
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To: John Valentine; All
Understood, although not necessarily agreed totally with.
There has been some discussion over the past several years that disconnects alQaeda from islam and into a truly different sort of organization along the lines of the Aum movement in Japan. They were the folks who did some pretty nasty things, including the release of Sarin in the Tokyo subway. They were quite successful in recruiting highly educated, affluent, members of the military and police. Some 28,000K + members.
42 posted on 08/18/2005 3:11:57 PM PDT by olde north church (Man enough to pay for my own sins.)
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