Posted on 08/18/2005 5:04:35 PM PDT by bloggodocio
The number of Americans earning doctoral degrees has declined in recent years, renewing worries that the United States is losing its dominance in Ph.D.-level education to rapidly developing nations like China and India.
The National Center for Education Statistics recently reported that 44,160 Ph.D.s were awarded by U.S. universities in 2002, down from the high-water mark of 46,010 doctorates awarded in 1998.
All other education degrees are up dramatically.
The Census Bureau reported that the number of Americans who obtained a bachelor's degree increased from 32 million in 1990, or 20 percent of the population then, to more than 44 million in 2000 _ 24 percent of the population. Master's and professional degrees have also increased significantly.
But only 1 percent of Americans had earned Ph.D.s as of 2000, a figure expected to decline slightly since awarded doctorates are not matching population growth.
Census officials reported that there were slightly more than 1.7 million Americans with Ph.D.s as of 2000.
Meanwhile, other nations are ratcheting up their doctoral programs. The National Bureau of Economic Research has predicted that by 2010 China will surpass the United States in the number of science and engineering Ph.D.s conferred.
"The numbers I've seen from the National Science Foundation show a trajectory that Asia will, in a very short time, produce more Ph.D.s than the United States," said education researcher Heath Brown. "India has pledged to have a sixfold increase in the number of advanced degrees it awards."
The United States in 1970 produced more than half of the world's Ph.D.s. But if current patterns continue, the United States will be lucky to produce just 15 percent of the world's doctorates by 2010.
"We don't know exactly why this is happening. But we do know that there are financial issues involved, including the increased debt burden that American students are facing," said Debra Stewart, president of the Washington-based Council of Graduate Schools.
The median amount of debt incurred by students seeking doctoral degrees has increased from $11,500 in 1992 to $44,743 in 2003, a more rapid increase than for any other category of college student.
"These debt levels are likely to prove burdensome to many recent doctorate earners and may dissuade some from pursuing careers in academe," said Jacqueline King, director of the American Council on Education's Center for Policy Analysis.
American students may also be discouraged by the increasingly uncertain labor market for Ph.D. recipients.
"Is there really a viable non-academic job market for someone with a doctorate in English? I'm not sure we've done such a wonderful job explaining to students the range of things they can do with a Ph.D.," said Stewart.
She said that many doctoral programs have low completion rates. Only about 40 percent of Ph.D. candidates in the humanities finish, compared with a 75 percent completion rate for doctoral candidates in the biological sciences.
Census officials also found that Americans with doctorates are not evenly distributed throughout the nation. Los Angeles County has the nation's largest concentration of Ph.D.s, with 58,852 , followed by Chicago's Cook County with 33,501 and Middlesex County, Mass., with 32,025.
Those with doctorates account for 1 percent of the adult populations in Los Angeles County and Cook County, but represent nearly 3 percent in Middlesex County, home to most of the academics employed at Harvard University, the Massachusetts Institute of Technology and other major academic centers.
But the Boston area does not have America's highest population proportion of Ph.D.s, according to Census officials. That honor goes to Los Alamos County, N.M., where 16 percent of the population has a doctorate, due to the more than 2,000 Ph.D.s employed at the Los Alamos National Laboratory. The facility conducts research for the nation's nuclear weapons and energy programs.
There are 140 counties in the United States that do not have any doctoral-degree recipients.
The U.S. Department of Education reported that there were 6,967 degrees awarded for education in 2002, the most for any academic field, followed by 5,195 degrees conferred in engineering and 4,489 awarded for biological and life sciences. Advanced degrees for English and literature have been on the decline, dropping to 1,446 recipients in 2002, down from its record of 1,672 recipients in 1976.
PhD = Playa Hater Degree! Yeaaaaa Boiiiiii!!!!!
Is this a bad thing????
Well, I intended to get a PhD in History, but wound up with an MBA instead.
"Piled hip Deep"
If only they'd stop giving out 4-year degrees so indiscriminantly, that would be nice too.
PhD = Post hole Digger
Yes. For the technological and scientific future of the country, it is a bad thing.
Having said that, and being a former English & history major myself, I don't know why people get PhDs in these areas anymore. The fields are terrifically overcrowded and wages in them are low.
In my field, there are still jobs and the wages are high. In addition, almost everyone is completely funded, so there is little doctoral debt (that happens at the lower levels). Worse comes to worse, I can take my PhD to industry. Hard to do that w/a doctorate in early 17th century Englsih women writers.
Piled higher and Deeper...with colleges run by the type of people who work there, what attraction could there be to competing with those type of people for a limited number of tenure track positions?
Having escaped once from academe, I know I won't go back...
I could agree w/that if employers would stop requiring 4 year degrees for entry level jobs that could be done w/2 yrs of community college.
In the big cities I've lived in, it's hard to get a office job w/o a degree, even if you are answering phones and photocopying. It creates an artificial market for graduate degrees because people have to get a masters just to differentiate themselves from the crowd and have promotion opportunities. You wind up w/jobs advertised for people w/grad degrees that a 4 year grad could do.
I've known many bioscience candidates, and nearly all of them had to quit and take their masters instead. The reasons- burnout, babies, and bank accounts (they need to start working to support their new family).
But more than any other factor- low morale. They are surrounded by folks with more brains than manners or personality, including professors, underlings, and co-equal lab partners... very unpleasant people.
Everyone should read what William James wrote over a century ago: The Ph.D. Octopus
The U.S. Department of Education reported that there were 6,967 degrees awarded for education in 2002,
Well, theres the problem
PhD = Purple-Haired Dykes? Pointy-Headed Dorks?
"Is there really a viable non-academic job market for someone with a doctorate in English? I'm not sure we've done such a wonderful job explaining to students the range of things they can do with a Ph.D..."
Honestly I'm not concerned about the decline in English PhD students. I am more concerned about fields such as Computer Science, Mathematics, Physics, Engineering, etc. These are the fields that Chinese and Indians are going into and these are the fields that are critical for us to maintain the technical superiority of our military and national security in general.
I worked in a call center once where well over half of the gals on the telephone had a BA....sad, but true
The problem is anyone under 30 without a 4 year degree is considered marginal. Older people can still get away without a 4 year degree, at least for now....
This does tend to de-value education, but when you look at the product of most public high schools, it is not suprising that employers don't take the HS graduates seriously anymore.
Tech schools and Junior colleges should be better respected, but for some reason we denigrate the benefits of these very sensible institutions.
Then we end up with an army of marketing majors, cat therapist, Interior designers, historians (ahem!) and lawyers.
What we are going to end up with is a quarter of the country that is over-educated and under paid, but living in relative comfort doing essentially silly jobs, ....while three quarters of the nation exist in a precarious state desperately competing for an ever shrinking pool of domestic manufacturing jobs....or competing with "immigrants" ...hehe
it's an odd situation, but nothing we can't deal with
As for me, I'm a proud poor Ph.D candidate who knows full well I'll never be rich and famous teaching history.
And since I happen to like America, I'm relatively unemployable at most public universities.
But it's ok,
People should live their lives and do what they want to do.
If money was your only motivating factor, you'd be a prostitute or drug dealer......
Odd how the article treats the decline of doctorates in the humanities as some sort of crisis. Perhaps it will inspire people to invent more new fields like "gender studies" which make only a very doubtful contribution to human wisdom.
I work with a lot of these undergrad kids during our summer sessions.
They come over and pay massive amounts to get intensive english skills. Mainly from China, the kids study engineering, Information Tech, and business.
Their major goal is to secure a graduate degree from an American institution.
We at the university make a little green, and the kids get their first step towards academic success/conquer Amerika studies...(most actually love America)
Now, without putting down my countrymen, I'd have to say these young chinese kids bust @ss constantly. I've never seen anything like it.
The Asians will enroll in 15 hours and then spend 75 hours a week in the library. They think nothing of going on 3 hours sleep a night. Very few of our 19 year old American students can match the Asian students work ethic.
**(The exception is our kids in the military, but again, the guys in boot camp are not living the pampered "let's get drunk and laid" college student lifestyle)**
As far as the Ph.D's you're absolutely right, the overwhelming majority (I'd say 90% at my instution) of advanced degrees taken by international students are in fields such as engineering, chemistry, computer sci., and interestingly, agriculture related sciences.
The second tier are the Business majors.
Very few waste The Party's money in pursuit of a MA in Literature or history.
It would be a bad thing, but the grad schools were created to populate the ranks of professionals required by the Industrial Revolution. In a sense, industry itself created the schools. If the schools are moving offshore, to China and India, it is only that they are following industry.
We could certainly do without a bunch of PhDs in the liberal arts fields and in other areas, but the drop off in the physical sciences, mathematics, and certain areas of engineering, is something to worry about, especially if you look at corresponding trends in communist China, and several other Asian countries. Professor Rick Smalley of Rice University, a Nobel laureate, noted in a recent briefing that, and I quote: "By 2010, if current trends continue, over 90% of all physical scientists and engineers in the world will be Asians working in Asia." The CHICOMS in particular are putting a big push into forcing more of their military to study the sciences and engineering, and many to pursue PhD degrees. They believe they can eclipse our currently eroding technological lead over them...especially while we're transfixed by the Middle East.
don't laugh, but in a certain history department I am familiar with, there are now 5 "gender studies" scholarships, 1 "Queer studies" scholarship, Numerous minority studies scholarships (pick your cause, black power, indigenious peoples, Latino studies), and the newest is a full program in Arab History, funded by a Saudi.
That's right, if I decide to write a dissertation on how great the Muslims are, a friendly Desert Prince will pay for my books, tuition, and give me a living stipend....
there is one scholarship funded for veterans to continue graduate studies.
That is one scholarship out of at least 30, with the other 29 being essentially lefty only need apply.
Now you know why the department is full of trotskyites!
I don't know why I should be amazed at the nastiness of some academics, but I always am when I hear these stories. What is the purpose??
I've been fortunate that my program is full of decent people who treat the doctoral students decently. I may be the only happy PhD student on the planet, but I truly enjoy my studies and my professors.
PS - I came to academe from a career as a lawyer. Trust me, it's hard for me to be happy or enjoy anything. Perhaps compared to law school and practicing, anything looks like fun. : )
PhD=Personality has Departed
I had been out of school for awhile when I did a masters at Michigan. As a grad student, I expected to spend time in the library, but what surprised me was the number of Asian undergrads, usually in study groups, in the libraries at all hours. These folks were not fooling around.
That said, my son was active in several Asian-oriented clubs on campus and knew a lot of 2nd & 3rd generation kids from a variety of Asian cultures. A good number of them were in majors that their parents told them to take; they weren't choosing majors because they had an interest in them. Now, while an engin major will probably get a better job than a lit major, I'd like to think that engineers, doctors, etc. actually have an interest in and talent for their careers. Coming from Asian cultures, the kids did not go against their parents' wishes, even though they wanted to major in other areas.
This goes to what you said in another post about not doing everything for the money. Many of the parents only looked at the money and pushed the kids in that direction.
hehe, the funnest thing was when I ran into one of our guys, after about a month....he had a mohawk, and had found the tattoo parlor....hehe.
America does that to some young guys
Oh, he was still bustin his butt studying computer science, but you knew his real love was "rock an roll".
I doubt mom and dad would approve, but hey, he was still making straight A's...
He's probably back in China writing software by day, rockin' out by night...
Likewise, a high school diploma used to mean more...
Your point is especially right in certain states that require accreditations to hire. New York, California, and New Jersey are propbaly the worst for this. They use "qualification" as a guise for political compliance, under threat of audit/fines/liability and probably even jail.
I have been told that there is a real glut of PhD prepared students who can't find teaching jobs, and this has been true for many years. Thus we have fewer PhD students.
Ugh, that's just painful. This is how ideological censorship is done, subtly and without direct applied force. The student who takes that money and does what is asked has likely been radicalized for life.
But our National Soccer Team did beat Trinidad and Tobago.
Almost right. I read posts on a website for academics. 200-300 applicants for 1 position. People adjuncting at very low pay for years. BUT, these are generally English majors. Majors in other fields in the humanities face a similar, if not as daunting, market. I'm in a tech-related field and we are hiring. I was just at a conference where a friend had 12 interviews and isn't even finished his doctorate yet. And this in a 'down' market post dotcom boom.
As much enjoyment and respect that I have for English lit and history of all types, I don't think I could recommend that anyone pursue a doctorate in these fields. The schools continue to admit a lot of doctoral students, which I think is a dis-service when there is no market. Plus, while some can transfer their intellectual skills to industry or government, I think many more believe they have to be academics and are crushed when they don't get these jobs and when their dissertation on Jane Austen doesn't get them a job outside academe.
Old time aeronautical engineer from Germany once told me that far too many Americans PHDs were frauds.
Chief Moose, remember him??? Well he has a PHD.
IN 1998-2000, the job market was very hot...
It takes 4-6 years to get a PhD.
Conclusion, some of the decline may be attributable to students choosing jobs instead of school.
There IS a problem in that 50% of science and engineering PhD s are imported from overseas anyway... but that's another story.
USA needs more PhDs. Stay in school and learn.
"Honestly I'm not concerned about the decline in English PhD students. I am more concerned about fields such as Computer Science, Mathematics, Physics, Engineering, etc. These are the fields that Chinese and Indians are going into and these are the fields that are critical for us to maintain the technical superiority of our military and national security in general."
Well said.
Alas, engineering is one area where there is a decline.
"don't laugh, but in a certain history department I am familiar with, there are now 5 "gender studies" scholarships, 1 "Queer studies" scholarship, Numerous minority studies scholarships (pick your cause, black power, indigenious peoples, Latino studies), and the newest is a full program in Arab History, funded by a Saudi.
That's right, if I decide to write a dissertation on how great the Muslims are, a friendly Desert Prince will pay for my books, tuition, and give me a living stipend....
there is one scholarship funded for veterans to continue graduate studies.
That is one scholarship out of at least 30, with the other 29 being essentially lefty only need apply.
Now you know why the department is full of trotskyites!"
Remember Al Pachino's ranting speech at the end of "The Scent of a Woman"? ....
"They should take a *flamethrower* to this place!"
... seems apropos to that case. What a useless waste of fine wood-panelled university lounges and our education $$$.
that's exactly what it is, but it is so subtle that most students don't realize what is going on...
Conservative groups have yet to fully appreciate how a few dollars directed in a certain area can have a dramatic effect.
Liberal elites realize that $5,000 isn't much to them, but to a young student it can make all the difference, so they fund these programs and scholarships, but they fund them in order to suit their own agenda.
And thus we end up with 90% of the faculty voting democrat....
Another example is the course offerings, lets use a recent example and say there are six seminars offered for Ph.D American history candidates, and you must enroll in three:
1. Civil Rights Movement
2. Environmental History
3. Vietnam War
4. Jacksonian Era
5. Religon and American History
6. Hist. of Southwest Borderlands
Guess which of these classes have a liberal bent, and which are fairly moderate?(None will be conservative, c'mon, were talking grad school here)
Of the 6 seminars I have presented, the Am. Religious History is the most leftist, which will suprise some.
But it's taught by a Athiest/Trotskyite, who has a life mission of attacking religion.
Next come Civil Rights and Environmental Hist., taught by aging boomers who are still fighting the revolution. Both believe that America is inherently evil and racist, and they get paid to show you how...
The remaining courses will all be standard liberal interpretations, capital exploits poor workers, whites/males are the villans, it's standard fare.
But the Vietnam class might suprise some by being fairly honest, in that it is taught by an old Truman Democrat, and thus the most fair-minded member of the faculty.
This is why your kids enter the university and many become brainwashed democrats....
Their teachers consider Hillary! and Barney Frank to be the sensible centrist.
Most (over 95%) of your kids professors held their noses and voted for Kerry.
They held their noses because they thought he was too conservative, but was far better than that neanderthal republican.
A few voted Nader/Green/socialist
Almost right. I read posts on a website for academics. 200-300 applicants for 1 position. People adjuncting at very low pay for years. BUT, these are generally English majors. Majors in other fields in the humanities face a similar, if not as daunting, market. I'm in a tech-related field and we are hiring. I was just at a conference where a friend had 12 interviews and isn't even finished his doctorate yet. And this in a 'down' market post dotcom boom."
Uh, yeah, but the math is obvious... one teacher can have dozens of graduate students and literally teach thousands of undergrads in a career. Thus, by definition, only a fraction of students can become teachers. The problem is that some English PhD need to think of something other than english lit. prof as a career goal.
"As much enjoyment and respect that I have for English lit and history of all types, I don't think I could recommend that anyone pursue a doctorate in these fields. The schools continue to admit a lot of doctoral students, which I think is a dis-service when there is no market. Plus, while some can transfer their intellectual skills to industry or government, I think many more believe they have to be academics and are crushed when they don't get these jobs and when their dissertation on Jane Austen doesn't get them a job outside academe."
Well said.
I can tell you why they let so many people into English lit graduate programs: so they can have a group of cheap labor to teach English composition classes. Use them for 3-5 years in a temporary hire position, then refuse to put them on a tenure track position. Then they have to scramble for another position somewhere else and go through the motions once again. But most large state universities couldn't handle their composition class loads without their work.
My son got a PhD in physics 5 years ago. He hasn't been the same since.
Okay, so it ain't piled higher but it must still be piled deeper.
(Denny Crane: "Sometimes you can only look for answers from God and failing that... and Fox News".)
I didn't have 4 more years to waste in school. I had a kid
and a house payment to make and needed the lucre.
This is a very significant indicator that the USA is in danger of fast decline. The research to develop and design new things and improve old things is going to be done by the Chinese and the Indians.
Therefore, our economic advances will be eclipsed by other countries who are doing more research, etc.
True. Could this work be done by advanced masters students, tho? It's one thing to spend 2 years on a degree you might conceivably use as a stepping stone for something else, but the time and effort for the doctorate are just too much in a field w/o tenured jobs.
Just so you know, any good research school will fund your degree, at least during the classwork phase. In my program, we are all fully funded for about 5 years, long enough in our field to do the dissertation. My son's friend just started a program at Cornell and is funded for 7 years.
I would advise anyone who is serious about their studies only to apply to schools that give a full ride. Anything else and they are just taking your money and/or using you to teach classes.
It's mostly masters degrees who get snookered in by life's needs to become EBD...and never finish the Ph. D. And some Ph.D's who aren't good enough to get tenured. But the system requires it. A dark underbelly to the university system. Math is almost as bad.
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