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Never, Ever Leave home without It.
Real Life | 8/21/2005 | CholeraJoe

Posted on 08/21/2005 6:02:36 AM PDT by CholeraJoe

"Never, ever leave home without it." No, not your American Express card, your sidearm.

This morning, I woke up about 4:15 and was hungry, so I decided to drive to the local 24-hour beanery. The only other customers were a table of 10, intoxicated 20-somethings making alot of noise.

There were 7 muscular young men and three loud-mouthed young women. After listening to their raucous laughter for 10 minutes, I politely asked the waitress to ask them to hold down the noise. All I wanted to do was eat my breakfast in relative peace.

Her request for quiet lasted about 45 seconds, then the noise and laughter resumed. At that point, I decided to do something.

Bear in mind that I am not an imposing figure. I'm 5'9", mid 50's, and slim. I walked over to the table, and walked completely around it twice. I said, "I'd like y'all to hold down the noise for a while, please." One of the young men started to give me trash-talk but within seconds was elbowed by the guy next to him, who whispered something in his ear. Then everyone at the table said, "Yes, sir, or OK."

What made the difference? Open carry. I was wearing a 9mm semi-auto on my right hip. I never touched it and I made no threats, but it was nevertheless visible.


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An armed society is a polite society.
1 posted on 08/21/2005 6:02:36 AM PDT by CholeraJoe
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To: CholeraJoe

There are neighborhoods in Denver where a few at the table might have shown you theirs.


2 posted on 08/21/2005 6:05:16 AM PDT by Sterco
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To: secret garden; xsmommy; WhyisaTexasgirlinPA; Argh; hobbes1; dubyaismypresident

ping


3 posted on 08/21/2005 6:05:18 AM PDT by CholeraJoe ("Cowboy the f*ck up!" LT Waters in "Tears of the Sun")
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To: CholeraJoe

Why would you expect peace and quiet at 430 am on a weekend? Maybe you should just scramble some eggs in the kitchen.


4 posted on 08/21/2005 6:05:32 AM PDT by Arkie2 (No, I never voted for Bill Clinton. I don't plan on voting Republican again!)
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To: CholeraJoe

This ought to be fun; the RKBA is based on the principle of self-defense. A public place, no threat of physical safety, no one breaking the law - just a person annoyed by loud noise. One can imagine that he could be arrested for threatening other customers.


5 posted on 08/21/2005 6:07:15 AM PDT by lemura
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To: Neil E. Wright; Alas Babylon!; dixie sass; Taxman; Jim Robinson

ping


6 posted on 08/21/2005 6:07:34 AM PDT by CholeraJoe ("Cowboy the f*ck up!" LT Waters in "Tears of the Sun")
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To: Arkie2

I was out of eggs. The restaurant was open and the grocery store was closed.


7 posted on 08/21/2005 6:09:02 AM PDT by CholeraJoe ("Cowboy the f*ck up!" LT Waters in "Tears of the Sun")
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To: CholeraJoe

nothing like fresh "STFU" for breakfast


8 posted on 08/21/2005 6:09:16 AM PDT by kendu
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To: CholeraJoe
I have had a CCW for about five years - and I have never "showed" to anyone.

What you did was wrong.

A bunch of drunk kids?

Leave them alone.

9 posted on 08/21/2005 6:10:01 AM PDT by patton ("Hard Drive Cemetary" - forthcoming best seller)
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To: CholeraJoe
Joe, I would have left. The tone and deportment in the restaurant is the owner's business. He might prefer ten raucous twenty-somethings to one dyspeptic fifty-something.

These kids were probably drunk, drunks do stupid things. At least they have an excuse.
10 posted on 08/21/2005 6:10:58 AM PDT by Lonesome in Massachussets (Lonesome's First Law: Whenever anyone says it's not about the money, it's about the money.)
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To: CholeraJoe

Then you should be prepared for a little noise and exuberance. It's not your place to enforce anti noise laws. Open and concealed carry are meant for self defense, not open intimidation if someone offends your sensibilities.


11 posted on 08/21/2005 6:11:43 AM PDT by Arkie2 (No, I never voted for Bill Clinton. I don't plan on voting Republican again!)
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To: CholeraJoe

I think that was over the top. I don't believe the open carry laws were devised to enforce someone's version of good manners.

The threat was implied. What would you have done if they had continued to carry on? Shoot them? If not, what was the point?

P.S. I have a concealed carry permit


12 posted on 08/21/2005 6:12:52 AM PDT by T Minus Four (Some assembly required.)
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To: lemura
One can imagine that he could be arrested for threatening other customers.

I made no threats, nor touched my weapon. I simply asked them to keep the noise to a reasonable level. It was as unobtrusive as my balding head.

13 posted on 08/21/2005 6:13:15 AM PDT by CholeraJoe ("Cowboy the f*ck up!" LT Waters in "Tears of the Sun")
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Comment #14 Removed by Moderator

To: CholeraJoe

Excellent to hear!


15 posted on 08/21/2005 6:14:46 AM PDT by ConservativeMind
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To: CholeraJoe

Been there too.

I'm 5'8" and chubby. Not threatening at all.

You can get a lot more with a kind word and a gun than a kind word.

There is no excuse, especially "kids being kids", for behaving like loud idiots in public.
Nothing ruins eating out like other people's inconsiderate behavior.


I'm glad you were able to finish your meal in peace.


16 posted on 08/21/2005 6:14:53 AM PDT by nerdwithamachinegun (All generalizations are wrong.)
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To: CholeraJoe

Would have been interesting if you came up against one of the drunks who also had a 9mm and told you to sit down and shut up. Would it have been the OK Corral?


17 posted on 08/21/2005 6:15:06 AM PDT by Bommer
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To: CholeraJoe

Billy Bad-ass? Chip on shoulder?...or both...


18 posted on 08/21/2005 6:15:29 AM PDT by dakine
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To: Sterco

yup , LOL!! , and nabes in NYC where the 1st thing you'd see would be the muzzle flash


19 posted on 08/21/2005 6:15:35 AM PDT by Dad yer funny
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To: CholeraJoe

"All I wanted to do was eat my breakfast in relative peace."

Certainly the bakery would wrap your breakfast for take-out!

Using your rights to step on the rights of others - seems like you were the rude one.


20 posted on 08/21/2005 6:16:39 AM PDT by Ludicrous (I support a woman's right to choose an effective contraception method)
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To: patton

I've had a CCW since I was 19. My state allows open carry, with a few exceptions like churches and government buildings. I can't begin to tell you how many times open carry has prevented trouble.


21 posted on 08/21/2005 6:16:44 AM PDT by CholeraJoe ("Cowboy the f*ck up!" LT Waters in "Tears of the Sun")
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To: lemura

RKBA is based on the idea that an armed society is a free society and capable of controlling the government.

Individual self defense is secondary and incidental to that from what I've read in the Federalist and Anti-Federalist papers.


22 posted on 08/21/2005 6:16:50 AM PDT by nerdwithamachinegun (All generalizations are wrong.)
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To: patton

Ditto.... Sorry, but Ditto.

In that situation, you pay your bill and leave.


23 posted on 08/21/2005 6:17:09 AM PDT by Capn TrVth (capntrvth.blogspot.com)
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To: CholeraJoe

complete farking idiocy.


24 posted on 08/21/2005 6:18:31 AM PDT by tomakaze (Cuius testiculos habes, habeas cardia et cerebellum.)
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To: nerdwithamachinegun
You can get a lot more with a kind word and a gun than a kind word.

Thanks. All men were not created equal, until Samuel Colt came along.

25 posted on 08/21/2005 6:18:34 AM PDT by CholeraJoe ("Cowboy the f*ck up!" LT Waters in "Tears of the Sun")
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To: CholeraJoe
You should probably avoid petty confrontations while wearing that thing.
26 posted on 08/21/2005 6:19:53 AM PDT by Jim_Curtis
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To: CholeraJoe
A weapon is used for self defense, not intimidating a bunch of drunk kids. What would you have done if one of them got in your face. What would you have done if they kept on talking. What if one of the idiots wanted to take a swing at you. In this case, you have become the aggressor. You would have killed somebodies kid,who for all you know is a good person, just a little drunk and trying to get some breakfast.

I am all for carry, either open or concealed. But, I believe that if you choose to carry, you have an extra responsibility to avoid confrontation.

Kids have a right to be stupid and survive. Heavens know that I didn't survive on my judgment alone when I was that age.

I think what you did was a mistake and if you had discharged your weapon, you have destroyed your own life.
27 posted on 08/21/2005 6:20:27 AM PDT by dangerdoc (dangerdoc (not actually dangerous any more))
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To: patton
Open carry is a buit different than CCW - It wasn't brandished, CJ did no wrong, and I'm betting the kids (wrongly) assumed he was a UC cop just looking for a **quiet** breakfast. all's well that ends well, and maybe they learned a bit of a lesson.

/JMNSHO

28 posted on 08/21/2005 6:21:01 AM PDT by xcamel (Deep Red, stuck in a "bleu" state.)
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To: Jim_Curtis

That's the story I've heard from more than one packer. It makes sense. CJ sounds like a rambo wannabe who was lucky the noisy (but thus far 100% legal) crowd didn't have someone equipped to call his bluff.


29 posted on 08/21/2005 6:22:22 AM PDT by The Red Zone (Florida, the sun-shame state, and Illinois the chicken injun.)
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To: CholeraJoe

The fact you circled the table twice definitely makes it sound like you were the aggressor. If you have the right to threaten people for being obnoxious most of us won't make it out of puberty.

Who decides when you're being too loud in public? Who gets to judge when using the cell phone is impolite? Anyone with a gun? What you did was wrong.

You enforced the negative image of guns and made it tougher for those of us who want to carry them peacefully.


30 posted on 08/21/2005 6:22:28 AM PDT by usnjay
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To: lemura
One can imagine that he could be arrested for threatening other customers

Here in CT you can count on it. Having a CCW does not make you a superman, in fact, you need to act the complete opposite.

31 posted on 08/21/2005 6:23:25 AM PDT by Puppage (You may disagree with what I have to say, but I shall defend to your death my right to say it.)
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To: xcamel

Sounds to me like he was looking for trouble...but, of course, I wasn't there.


32 posted on 08/21/2005 6:23:49 AM PDT by patton ("Hard Drive Cemetary" - forthcoming best seller)
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Comment #33 Removed by Moderator

To: CholeraJoe
I can't begin to tell you how many times open carry has prevented trouble.

I say again, bad manners does not equal "trouble". I'm 48 but remember well many a late night or early morning where a group of us 20-somethings ended up at diner or truckstop (we were military on TDY) winding down a little alchohol and high spirits over coffee and breakfast. Often in some little town in Montana or Wyoming. I suppose we were just as obnoxious to some. I'd go back in a heartbeat!

34 posted on 08/21/2005 6:24:28 AM PDT by T Minus Four (Some assembly required.)
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To: CholeraJoe

Colt may equalize things, but I still prefer the "Chicago Typewriter."


35 posted on 08/21/2005 6:24:35 AM PDT by Schwaeky ("Truth is not determined by a majority vote" Pope Benedict XVI)
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To: Dad yer funny; Yehuda

hey , this could be a good thread , Cranky Wanker meets Boozey Revelers at Greasy Spoon , overlapping short stories in the wee hours ,... maybe its good NYC doesn't have,er,y'know,... we coulda got popped years ago , we were more twitchy though


36 posted on 08/21/2005 6:24:39 AM PDT by Dad yer funny
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To: CholeraJoe
I made no threats, nor touched my weapon. I simply asked them to keep the noise to a reasonable level

Would you have done the same thing if you weren't armed?

37 posted on 08/21/2005 6:25:03 AM PDT by Puppage (You may disagree with what I have to say, but I shall defend to your death my right to say it.)
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To: Arkie2
Why would you expect peace and quiet at 430 am on a weekend? Maybe you should just scramble some eggs in the kitchen.

So are you making the argument that based on time and location it is ok to act like an asshat in a business establishment annoying other customers. After all it was a breakfast joint not a bar.

38 posted on 08/21/2005 6:25:27 AM PDT by Fzob (Why does this tag line keep showing up?)
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To: CholeraJoe

What gives you the right to eat in quiet at 4:15 a.m. at someone elses place of business? They were the only other patrons at the diner until you arrived, and there is nothing in your vanity post to indicate that they were threatening the waitress, the chef, or anyone else. I would have told you to "stuff it" and "if you think a bit of noise at 4:15 a.m. is worth unholstering your sidearm, then go ahead and make my day." What an a-hole.


39 posted on 08/21/2005 6:25:50 AM PDT by Labyrinthos
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To: CholeraJoe

Not until there is a serious threat to life or limb. They could have read you the riot act and had you pulled, YOU would be the one facing decades of dungeon if not worse.


40 posted on 08/21/2005 6:26:27 AM PDT by The Red Zone (Florida, the sun-shame state, and Illinois the chicken injun.)
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To: lemura
One can imagine that he could be arrested for threatening other customers.

So if a cop in uniform who was eating after getting off duty asked them to keep it down, could he be arrested for threatening them? Of course not.

I have three small children, and occasionally they get a little loud. As long as I am asked politely, I don't see a threat.

41 posted on 08/21/2005 6:26:41 AM PDT by hopespringseternal (</i>)
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To: usnjay
Nothing I did was threatening. The weapon on my hip was no more obtrusive than my bald head.

BTW, I carry almost every day.

42 posted on 08/21/2005 6:26:42 AM PDT by CholeraJoe ("Cowboy the f*ck up!" LT Waters in "Tears of the Sun")
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To: CholeraJoe

Nope. You started the confrontation and if one of them had taken you on I'm sure the law in your state would have held you responsible just as the law for concealed carry does in my state.


43 posted on 08/21/2005 6:27:06 AM PDT by Arkie2 (No, I never voted for Bill Clinton. I don't plan on voting Republican again!)
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To: usnjay

"Carry" or "Liscensed to Carry Concealed" if for one purpose. Self defense or the defense of others. "Intimidation" is not part of the deal. This kind of behavior is used against law abiding gun owners in legal forums. (NRA member)


44 posted on 08/21/2005 6:27:27 AM PDT by Sterco
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To: nerdwithamachinegun
RKBA is based on the idea that an armed society is a free society and capable of controlling the government.

I think you have the order reversed. In principle, we have the absolute right to self-defense regardless of what may be written on a piece of paper. In other words, the 2nd merely codifies an existing right. Since the 2nd helps ensure that individuals are supreme, all other organizations (such as government), are subsidiary to this order.

In order for individuals to associate freely in an open society, we have a wide range of laws in which to regulate behaviour. This includes the principles of private property and threats to bodily harm. Absent any violation of these two elements, our poster is actually running the risk of being arrested himself; a veiled threat is still a threat.

45 posted on 08/21/2005 6:27:46 AM PDT by lemura
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To: Puppage
Would you have done the same thing if you weren't armed?

Yup.

46 posted on 08/21/2005 6:28:06 AM PDT by CholeraJoe ("Cowboy the f*ck up!" LT Waters in "Tears of the Sun")
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To: CholeraJoe
If the kids hadn't quited down, the implication is that you would what, shoot them?
Ten drunk, obnoxious 20-somethings making a lot of noise.

I'm all for gun rights, but that's not a hill I'd choose to die for.
47 posted on 08/21/2005 6:28:27 AM PDT by MaryFromMichigan
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To: CholeraJoe

Haw haw, then why you so quick to give credit to your gun. You can't play that shell game with us, boy.


48 posted on 08/21/2005 6:28:53 AM PDT by The Red Zone (Florida, the sun-shame state, and Illinois the chicken injun.)
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To: CholeraJoe

"An armed society is a polite society."

Your statement is correct, but your implementation was completely flawed. As your story demonstrates, you modified your behavior when carrying a sidearm.

If it is a dumb idea to confront a bunch of drunks that are simply being annoying without a gun......then it is a dumb idea to do so with a gun. That you do not understand the difference, or how this could have been handled better, is why I offer this advice (without malice or mocking): You should not carry a gun.



49 posted on 08/21/2005 6:29:42 AM PDT by RFEngineer
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To: Fzob

It's up to the owner to enforce rules of decorum in his establishment and if he thinks it's getting out of line he can call the cops. Nothing written here by cholic Joe indicates these guys were anything other than noisy. That's not a crime where I come from.


50 posted on 08/21/2005 6:30:00 AM PDT by Arkie2 (No, I never voted for Bill Clinton. I don't plan on voting Republican again!)
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