Posted on 08/24/2005 4:15:35 PM PDT by Libloather
Surah 2:225 Allah will not call you to account for thoughtlessness in your oath, but for the intention in your hearts; and he is oft-forgiving, most forbearing.
(Surah 8:58) If thou fearest treachery from any group, throw back (their covenant) to them, (so as to be) on equal terms: for Allah loveth not the treacherous.
Muhammad is God's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another. (Surah 48:29)
Allah will not call you to account for what is futile in your oaths but He will call you to account for your deliberate oaths: for expiation feed ten indigent persons on a scale of the average food of your families; or clothe them; or give a slave his freedom. If that is beyond your means then fast three days. That is the expiation for the oaths ye have sworn. But keep to your oaths. (Surah Maa-ida (5) verse 92)
Like any ideology, such things must be taken together. Clearly, when engaged in jihad, one can easily justify breaking an oath out of "fear" or by virtue of a superceding commitment to war against unbelievers, like me.
Your post is axiomatic, but the fact we even have to have a thread on this horse$%^$ is beyond appalling. One thing however..it is becoming clearer that the goats are being seperated from the sheep. Dems/Repubs, gays/straight, ragheads/christians..etc etc
Hear Hear!
Do muslims, who appear before a Canadian court and take an oath on the Koran, get Islamic-style punishment when found guilty? I don't think so. For starters, it'll make many muslims think twice before setting sail for Canada. Second, it will put Canada on the list of 'unsafe' countries, together with the majority of countries where Islam rules.
Muslims often do not recognize the laws of a non-muslim country because the law, in their perception, should be based on the Koran. Hence organized crime in many European countries is dominated by...Canadians? No. Muslims? There you go!
Howdy, Prime Choice!
Oh, but it's not a fringe group! It's a RELIGION! </sarcasm>
If the Fed can incinerate a religious fringe group who just wanted to be left alone at Waco, why do we still have Islamic terror groups plotting mass murder of American citizens on American soil?
I mean, if Citizens were plotting to commit mass murder of other Citizens, the FBI, CIA, and BATF would be all over them with arrests, indictments, vilification, and prison time.
But since Islamists in America consist of a largely immigrant population, anything we might do to investigate their activities is branded by the media as witch hunts against innocent immigrants, ethnic profiling, or even (GASP!) RACISM! "You're not welcoming the aliens who want you dead! You should be ashamed of yourselves!"
grrrrrrrrrr...
I say we figure out (legal) ways to purge the mainstream media, academia, and the elites of America-hating appeaseniks. Maybe start digging up dirt on the people at the top of the various ladders of leftism, and start raising unholy hell about it in our media until the MSM can't ignore it anymore. Like what we're doing to Err America!
Not trying to start $h17, I'm just bringin' up something to ponder.
I think they should allow people the choice of swearing on the Koran. Then we would know who is lying.
Is that the relevant question? It's not a contest to see whose "holy book" gets used. The point is to maximize the probability that the witness tells the truth. Would a muslim feel greater motivation to tell the truth by swearing on a Bible or on a Koran? That's the only issue that matters.Unless of course the agenda is to establish Christianity as having legal primacy over other faiths.
-Eric
Neither accomplishes anythig for a Muslim because they have no cultural influence or religious reason to be honest. In fact they are encouraged to be dishonest to non-Muslims. Any jury ought to be advised of this whenever they hear a Muslim's testimony.
A jihadi will do whatever he wants regardless of whether there is an Koran in the courtroom or not. So this debate is not about them, it's about ordinary civil muslims. Would they be more likely to be held to their oath if they swore on a Koran rather than using a Bible or not using any book at all just the oath? From everything posted here and all I can find, it would be a terrible sin for a Muslim to swear on a Koran and then lie. So the bottom line seems to be that the use of a Koran would compel a Muslim to keep to the truth better than not having one. And if that's what it takes to establsih justice in the courtroom, then let them have it.
Correct.
So this debate is not about them, it's about ordinary civil muslims.
When an Imam calls for jihad, you are telling me that "ordinary Muslims" have no obligation to comply? If you are going there, there is virtually no limit to the number of Surahs mandating every Muslim to action.
Would they be more likely to be held to their oath if they swore on a Koran rather than using a Bible or not using any book at all just the oath?
Likely or not, they would be so permitted.
From everything posted here and all I can find, it would be a terrible sin for a Muslim to swear on a Koran and then lie.
To be expiated by simple fasting.
So the bottom line seems to be that the use of a Koran would compel a Muslim to keep to the truth better than not having one.
I don't think you can safely conclude that.
And if that's what it takes to establsih justice in the courtroom, then let them have it.
As far as I can tell, it won't.
That's what I'm saying. Are you claiming that every Muslim in the world is a jihadi willing to strap on a bomb-belt and blow up a kindergarden? If you do, there's no reason to continue this conversation as I can't penetrate that level of tin-foil hattery.
If you are going there, there is virtually no limit to the number of Surahs mandating every Muslim to action.
Just like the non-existant ones that people here claim allow a Muslim to lie in court with impunity?
[A lie under oath for a Muslim] To be expiated by simple fasting.
That's more than the simple Catholic expedient of confessing to your priest and saying a "Hail Mary" or two. What religious punishment is there for Protestants who lie under oath?
I don't think you can safely conclude that [Muslims would feel an additional compunction not to lie if they have to swear on a Koran].
Then you are arguing for eliminating Bibles from the courtroom too, if neither the Bible nor the Koran adds any additional coercion on someone to tell the truth. Is that your real goal?
Yes
These muslin banshees have managed to screw up the middle east and now are trying to impose their crapola on civilized countries. A suggestion - Go to Cuba and see if Fidel embraces these religious wackos.
I belive the Koran IS lies.
In the WOT, not every American is in Iraq. As in any war, there are obviously more than just foot soldiers.
Once a fatwa declaring jihad has been promulgated, the average Muslim would be more willing to raise more kids willing to strap on a bomb-belt and blow up a kindergarden. They would be more willing to shelter those willing to strap on a bomb-belt and blow up a kindergarden. They would be more willing to allow their contributions to finance bomb-belts to blow up kindergardens.
That they aren't blowing themselves up doesn't mean they aren't jihadis any more than the Imam's who aren't blowing themselves up either. Even if they don't personally approve of blowing up kindergardens, Muslims have shown a remarkable reluctance to do anything to stop it. The reason is because of what is in the Koran.
If you do, there's no reason to continue this conversation as I can't penetrate that level of tin-foil hattery.
There's no need to do that. It's done already.
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