Posted on 08/28/2005 11:55:00 AM PDT by Mazepa
"For your surprise in first ever commie goverment of Lenin there was 6 ukranian ministers: Podvoiskii, Lunacharskii, Tsurupa, Antonov-Evseenko. Dibenko, Krilenko"
Is this the Ukrainian Govt that Stalin killed off when they failed to Eugene Lyons "Assignment in Utopia".
PS - For you surprise, none of these names google up.
"My Russian wife says Zhirinovsky is crazy. Attempting to link him to Putin one might as well link Bush to David Duke. BTW, Duke and Zhirinovsky met together and share some of the same views."
Sounds like your supporting Putin again.
And how do you compare a powerful Russian govt leader with people that have no official capacity in this country?
""Zhirinovskii is a clown. Enough said. If you 'love" him then you love circus:). ""
"That too, but mostly is because he's doing a service- he's presenting what Russians really think of Ukrainians, behind the diplomatic facade and the "brothers"-talk. You tell me, what do you think of Ukraine being independent?"
First of all, its not my legislature. Second, both Al Sharpton and David Duke have held positions either directly elected (Duke) or within a political entity (Sharpton) and both have political careers here. As if you didn't know.
"First of all, its not my legislature"
Then why are you always criticizing the US govt unfairly and exhausting all means to put the Russians in the most favorable light.
And what political office does Sharpton have on his resume and how does it compare to the maniacal Russian that heads one of the largest political parties in Russia?
Yushchenko? no soup for you!
The Kremlin has its own Russian culture of ruthless depotism - "One life - One Kopec" is a very old Russian saying. ==
Heh heh:)).
For you education it is not russian proverb it is just expression from novelist Maxim Gorky (as far as I know). Accually he was commie sympatiser but soon after creation of USSR he was very disappointed and he leaved USSR for Italy. Died in 30th in Italy.
Maxim Gorky is the author of one more very prominent expression. Everyone know it today.
It is: "Who is not with us then is against us". Sound familiar?:))
You see spanalot. You base whole your russophoby on very wrong expression which you very wrongly put on russians.
I may call your case as the russsophobia because of low education.
Same kind of thing like jewdeophobia because of low education.
I'm glad that you don't site "The wisdom of russian elders" here:))). Like some jewdeophobes site "The wisdom of Zion elders":)).
But when some criminal thugs beat Russian teenagers in Warsaw that's what Ivan? ..... Yeah! ... You won! ..... THAT'S POLES' FAULT! And Poland is supposed to apologise.==
Lizol you mistake me for someone else. I even know with whom:). But I'm not him:).
Did I ever asked for any appologies from poles? I don't remember that.
What I said from start that whole matter is stupidity but this stupidity was started by poles hence they are responsible for consequances and hence poles has to stop it. Russian side in it is just revenger.
That is all what I said.
I'd have to check the names mentioned above, but what I know for sure is that for a republic with 75-80% Ukrainian majority, Ukrainians were under-represented in the party. The first Communist Congresses of the Comm. Party of Ukraine had ethnic Ukrainians at single digits percentage of the Party's composition. At the best of times Ukrainians were 50-60% of the republic's party.==
Of cause someone doesn't count eastern ukranians as trully ukranians. You too?
Check who was Vladimir Myekovsky and Nikolai Ostrovskii. It is 2 the "singer of revolution". Both are ukranians.
Check who was "bat'ka Mahno" (the father Mahno) the ally of Red army? Ukranian anarkhist revolutioneer.
DO you know that October revolt wouldn't happen if not Dibenko and his camrades seamen from Baltic fleet who base in Peterburg.
Most minority of seamen of Baltic Fleet was ukranians as far as same Dibenko who becomes later one of minister of fisrt bolshevick goverment of Lenin.
Those seamen of Dibenko was first fighters of revolt who sieged and took the Winter Palace in Peterburg the residence of conventional goverment. Peterburg was administrative capital of Russia at that time.
Moscow was religious capital of Russia. And became the capital of USSR after was occupied by bolshevicks in 1918.
So ukranians was in first rows of bolshevick fighters and represented Ukraine very well in bolshevick hyerarchy.
SU was not a state with republics who were equal, so they might as well call it "Russia".==
Did you read USSR constitution? Why on earth they needed whole bunch of republics ever if you right? Why not call them all "Russia" as you say? If that then it would be so easy.
But they called it "Soviet Union". It was done with deep sense.
Exactly they wanted to emphasize for everyone especially for ethnic russians that new state is NOT russian state as was Russian Empire before it.
Russian Empire was called "RUSSIAN Empire" not ukranian empire not uzbek empire not kazhakh empire not georgian empire. The word "russian" in her name just emphasize whose empire it is.
Likewise British Empire was BRITISH Empire not Indian not Arabian and so on. Not australian empire. Not iraqian empire.
You know well that all those lands were included in British Empire at some times but state itself was always called BRITISH anyway. WHy? Because britons are founded this British Empire and britons are ruled her.
Same way with Russian Empire.
Ukraine and part of Poland and parts of Central Asia and Sibiria and Far East parts were included in Russian Empire but state was always called RUSSIAN Empire anyway. Because likewise Britons russians are founded Russian Empire and russiasn are ruled Russian Empire.
Remember that British Empire and Russian Empire has buch of minorities in them.
Recall when red power came to Poland or China their new states was name Polish People Republic and Chinese People Republic. Again "polish" and "chinese" in names of new states.
BUT there no such things for russians! There was RUSSIAN Empire but became 'Soviet Union' not russian union for example.
Why that? I will answer.
Just because the fathers founders of USSR was NOT russians but bunch of mostly non-russian minorities citizens of former Russian Empire.
SO they wanted to emphasize to everyone that thier new state is NOT russian state. They wanted to show to everyone especialy ethnic russians that Russian Empire is dead and bolshevicks not ethnic russians will rule now in thier new state.
Because the bolshevicks being the bunch of minorities won Civil War 1917-22 under banner of national ethnic independences. Including ukranian and including baltic and so on. That is why!
He should be far more concerned about the criminal state that is joined at the hip with Russia - Belarus. Europe's last dictator has an iron grip on that sad country and is slowly squeezing the life out of it.
Get a load of this:
Warning on Confiscation of Goods in BelarusThe government of the Republic of Belarus routinely confiscates goods in transit through the country. These goods are seized and resold in a series of special shops throughout Belarus. In some cases the Belarusian government also confiscates the vehicle carrying the seized goods. The official reasons for confiscation vary, but include: clerical errors on invoices, missing signatures on paperwork, minor discrepancies between inventory and cargo, or claims by the Belarusian authorities that either the shipping or receiving company does not exist or went out of business.
The Embassy of the United States of America in Minsk endeavors to help any and all American companies that have had goods seized by Belarusian customs. Whenever any American owned cargo is seized by Belarusian customs, please contact the Economic Section of the U.S. Embassy in Minsk at 375-17-210-1283. However, these confiscations appear to be increasing in frequency, and many other European and Asian countries are also losing cargos. Therefore, the U.S. Government strongly advises U.S. businesses not to transit goods through Belarus, but to seek alternate routings.
BISNIS U.S. Department of Commerce
Tel: 202/482-2299, Fax: 202/482-2293
www.bisnis.doc.gov
"Maxim Gorky is the author of one more very prominent expression. Everyone know it today.
It is: "Who is not with us then is against us""
I did not know Gorky wrote in English
Wow - talk about Russian Chauvanism!
Do you really think that phrase never existed prior to a Russian uttering it?
"You base whole your russophoby on very wrong expression which you very wrongly put on russians"
No - I base it on the fact that Russians have committed more genocide than any other country - and that the Russians refuse to accept guilt and they refuse to prosecute those responsible.
(time to trot out "Stalin was Georgian")
"Russian Empire was called "RUSSIAN Empire" not ukranian empire not uzbek empire not kazhakh empire not georgian empire. The word "russian" in her name just emphasize whose empire it is. "
You better change your name to RussianIvan then.
No - I base it on the fact that Russians have committed more genocide than any other country - and that the Russians refuse to accept guilt and they refuse to prosecute those responsible.
(time to trot out "Stalin was Georgian")==
You deny that fact? What ethnicity of Stalin then?:)
Very funny indeed:).
If soviet dictator (Josef Dzhugashvilli- Stalin) or the founder of soviet political police (Felix Dezerzhinskii -what a "russian" name indeed?:))) then not georgian and not pole but "russian":)).
If for example the T-34 tank designer (Sergei Kotov) or designer of SOIUZ rocket (Vladimir Korolev) then not russian but "ukranian":)).
Tell what the russophobia then:)).
Again you lie. Mostly I'm correcting your half truths or out right lies, which you take as criticizing America. Sorry buddy, visions of grandeur aside, you are not America.
Quite a convenient answer.
Don't have the exact numbers but at the first session of the KPU there were something like 20 Jews, 15 Russians, 2-3 Ukrainians- and that's the body representing Ukraine.
Out of the Encyclopedia of Ukraine (Vol 1, pg 551): 1918- 7% Ukrainians, 1920- 19%, 1924- 33%, 1927- 52%, 1934- 60%, 1940- 63%, 1959- 60%, 1968- 65.1%, 1978- 65.8%. Maybe you could answer, why was it that the first Secretary of the Communist Party of Ukraine who was an ethnic Ukrainian was Kyrychenko in 1950s, some 30 years after the Revolution. And that's in the republic which had close to 80% of Ukrainians for most of the time.
Check who was Vladimir Myekovsky and Nikolai Ostrovskii. It is 2 the "singer of revolution". Both are ukranians.
Couldn't find the first guy. Heard of the second. These two and those previous names, (which I'll take you're word for to be Ukrainian) barely represented the Ukrainian peasant, 90% of the Ukrainian nation, and its intelligentsia. With all honesty, we know that black Republicans are a rarity, and an overwhelming majority of blacks vote for the "other" party. Same with Ukrainains in the early Communist party.
The scum you mentioned are sellouts- they're like Jews who turned in Jews to the Nazis, or Africans who would catch other Africans later to be sold into slavery. The communists who you should have mentioned and who actually did something for the Ukrainian nation in that regime, are Skrypnyk (responsible for the Ukrainization in the 20s, later murdered by Stalin in 1933), and Shelest (Ukrainian revival in the 60s, purged in the early 70s). The rest of those "Ukrainians" you can keep.
Check who was "bat'ka Mahno" (the father Mahno) the ally of Red army?
The same one who said "Whip Reds until they turn white, and Whites until they turn red" ? :)
Did you read USSR constitution? Why on earth they needed whole bunch of republics ever if you right?
USSR constitution- you mean the most humane code in existance? The one that allowed republics to secede, yet people who even proposed a discussion on the topic would be charged with treason and shipped to Siberia. No, haven't read that one- I'll just stick to Koschei Bessmertny, Pinocchio and other fairy tales.
Why not call them all "Russia" as you say? If that then it would be so easy.
I've said precisely before- because USSR painted itself to be a democratic state and said to allocate autonomy for the minorities and to be an improvement from the imperial model. They didn't want to isolate the minorities so they've made a compromise. But what would the republic's government decide- budget and industrial development is at the Union level, foreign relations also at the Union level, same with military (if Russia wanted war in Afghanistan, Ukrainian boys from 2000 miles away had to follow). Culture and education was left to the republics, but even these were censored by Moscow.
BUT there no such things for russians! There was RUSSIAN Empire but became 'Soviet Union' not russian union for example
You had RSFSR which was directly governed by the Communist Party of the Soviet Union, the same guys who ran the whole Union. It precisely shows which republic is in control. They didn't even go to trouble of establishing a separate Russian government which would be a subject to All-Union government--> Government of the RSFSR was the government of the Union.
They wanted to show to everyone especialy ethnic russians that Russian Empire is dead and bolshevicks not ethnic russians will rule now in thier new state.
But then why was Russian culture and language formed the basis for the USSR. Thanks to Soviet education there are millions of ethnic Ukrainians who are more familiar with Pushkin than Shevchenko, Suvorov than Sahaidachnyy, etc. Soviets claiming not to be Russian is a cynical joke.
Check who was Vladimir Myekovsky and Nikolai Ostrovskii. It is 2 the "singer of revolution". Both are ukranians.
Couldn't find the first guy. Heard of the second.
hy not call them all "Russia" as you say? If that then it would be so easy. ==
You don't know Myekovskii?:)) You know less about soviet history then I understand why you gave up to russophobic propaganda.
I've said precisely before- because USSR painted itself to be a democratic state and said to allocate autonomy for the minorities and to be an improvement from the imperial model. ==
"Improvement from imperial model"?!:)) Very amusing:).
Why not such "improvement" from britons at same time or later? Why ethnic russians would need such "improvement"?
Accually on earth why ethnic russians would need a state in which they are just biggest minority only? Do russians stupid or what?
It is easy to blame russians but shut up your brains and not think about that "Soviet Union" instead of "Russian Union" or Russian Empire, was created with one purpose- to ensure that new state is NOT russian state anymore.
They didn't want to isolate the minorities so they've made a compromise.==
Why ethnic russians wanted to compromise? They had thier own lands which bigger then of anyone else.
Britons when thier minoroties put up same question just broke up British EMpire and leave it. They were better off.
Same logic applies to russians.
See on recent history. Russians got out from USSR in first ever possibility (1991).
Who ever want to comfort minorities to compromise with them to subsedise them on expense of your own people?
Russians doesn't need to submit themselves for sake of any minorities to progress.
You put up borders and you ensure the favorable prices for your products and you engage trades and that is it.
"Let them be ther but us here" - russian proverb.
But instead ther are created the new state Soviet Union the new "minorities paradise".
Whoever did need it? Not russians.
Russian Empire likewise British Empire was RUSSIAN state which was run by russian emperor and for sake russian people. No one of russians wanted new Soviet Union the state in which your people will not anymore to prevail.
So in reality it was that russians who opposed reds at start. And Red bolshevicks had to win 4 year long Civil War to get power in Russian Empire in order to convert it to SOviet Union.
With help of all minorities of former Russian Empire, the Reds won that war and all grim consequances of it happened later.
"Russians got out from USSR in first ever possibility (1991). "
Who are you tryuing to kid - the Soviet Union fell apart
when Ukraine seceded. There was nothing left but Russia when they got done.
Who are you tryuing to kid - the Soviet Union fell apart
when Ukraine seceded.==
You know history very poor that is the source of your russophobia and prejudice.
But this events happened not so long ago then one may imagine how less you may know about events of October revolt 1917 and of Civil war 1917-22, of about 80 years ago.
For your information:
The declaration of Independence from USSR was accepted by Convent of Russian Deputies BEFORE similar declaration was accepted by Ukraninan Deputies Convent.
Accualy ukranian declaration was provoked by russian's!
Just check the dates. It is so easy task for you.
Russian declaration was proclamed on June 12, 1991. It is now Russian Independence Day.
The Ukranian Independence Day (the day of thier declaration) was celebrated in August, just recently. I don't know exact date. You check out.
Soviet Union began to crumble after Russia left her. Whole process was relatively bloodless just because USSR lost russian resources and troops at once.
So Ukraine left USSR after Russia paved way:). SO Ukraine was never reason for USSR to crumble:).
You learn historical facts then maybe you eyes will be opened by it. Education is amazing thing:)>
"Russian declaration was proclamed on June 12, 1991. It is now Russian Independence Day.
The Ukranian Independence Day (the day of thier declaration) was celebrated in August"
Sorry RussianIvan - but the truth is that while Ukraine declared Independence in August, the Russians were still trying to enslave their empire.
Your hamfisting of the facts is despicable.
Folks, for now let's forget what this F... Zhirinovsky is saying. As long as he is not in power, he won't do much harm and I don't give a S... about the nonsense that comes out of his mouth.
For now, I'm more worried about the situation in New Orleans and other Southern States in the Katrina hurricane aftermath.
anonymoussierra (Sara forum):
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1474101/posts
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