Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Georgia Officials Face ACLU Lawsuit After Praying in Christ's Name
AgapePress | August 26, 2005 | Allie Martin

Posted on 08/29/2005 4:26:08 AM PDT by hildy123

A Georgia county is being sued by the American Civil Liberties Union over its pre-meeting prayers. The suit claims one prayer at a recent Cobb County Commissioners' meeting ended "in the name of Jesus our Savior," which phrase, according to the ACLU, puts the invocation in violation of the Constitution of the United States.

However, attorney Steve Crampton of the American Family Association Center for Law & Policy, protests that the Cobb County officials' prayers are entirely legal, and the commission members have the right to open meetings with prayers acknowledging Jesus if they so choose.

But unfortunately, the pro-family lawyer notes, "This is one of those areas where our separation of church and state fanatics have really made headway over the last several years with the argument that praying in Jesus' name before, in this case, a county commission meeting constitutes the establishment of religion, prohibited under the First Amendment."

Still, Crampton, a constitutional law specialist, points out that there is historical as well as legal precedent for this kind of prayer. "Of course, the reality of the matter is that this is a practice that has been honored throughout the history of our nation, from the first days of the Continental Congress till today," he says.

And as far as the courts are concerned, the AFA attorney adds, the highest court in the land has also weighed in. "The U.S. Supreme Court ruled in 1983 in the Marsh v. Chambers case that legislative prayers with a historical background are perfectly constitutional -- that we are a people that has long recognized the obedience and role of our government as being under God," he says.

The ACLU's suit claims the Cobb County Commissioners' prayers are offensive to five county residents. However, a spokesman for Cobb County is arguing that the officials' prayers are legal because they take place before the meetings and are entirely voluntary.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Government
KEYWORDS: cnim; leftistagenda; leftistsedition

1 posted on 08/29/2005 4:26:08 AM PDT by hildy123
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: hildy123

American
Communists (and)
Liberals
Union

All
Communists (and)
Liberals
Unite


2 posted on 08/29/2005 4:30:48 AM PDT by highlymotivated (If American ever falls, a STINKING LIBERAL will be behind it.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: highlymotivated

And the ACLU hasn't said anything about Cindy Sheehan's putting CROSSES along the side of PUBLIC ROADS!!


3 posted on 08/29/2005 4:33:26 AM PDT by SubMareener (Become a monthly donor! Free FreeRepublic.com from Quarterly FReepathons!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: hildy123

Established = in use by anyone who happens to be in a public building?

If that's the case, why isn't secular humanism treated as the religion of the left? The ACLU lawyer, although less of a hothead than others about whom we've read, is attempting to impose his own version of SecularHumanist infallibility (over simplistic interpretation of Papal infallibility.


4 posted on 08/29/2005 4:35:02 AM PDT by saveliberty ("The mystery of government is not how Washington works but how to make it stop." - PJ O'Rourke)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: SubMareener

Great Point!


5 posted on 08/29/2005 4:36:07 AM PDT by hildy123 (Bring back Patton)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: hildy123
However, attorney Steve Crampton of the American Family Association Center for Law & Policy, protests that the Cobb County officials' prayers are entirely legal, and the commission members have the right to open meetings with prayers acknowledging Jesus if they so choose.

I assume Mr. Crampton would feel the same way if they started out each meeting by facing Mecca and praying to Allah or by chanting some scientology crap.

6 posted on 08/29/2005 4:41:38 AM PDT by Labyrinthos
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: SubMareener

ACLU won't touch Sheehan because she is using crosses to mock Christ, which they applaud.


7 posted on 08/29/2005 4:46:05 AM PDT by Sender (Team Infidel USA)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: hildy123

"The ACLU's suit claims the Cobb County Commissioners' prayers are offensive to five county residents."

I am offended by the ACLU.


8 posted on 08/29/2005 4:46:57 AM PDT by Rebelbase ("Run Hillary Run" bumper stickers. Liberals place on rear bumper, conservatives put on front bumper)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: hildy123

In Russia they are welcoming the use of Bibles in public schools. Yet here thanks to the ACLU we've gone to the opposite extreme.


9 posted on 08/29/2005 4:53:04 AM PDT by Lacey
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: hildy123

Moses with the Ten Commandments in the rotunda of the Library of Congress


Moses on the rear facade of the U.S. Supreme Court


Moses with the Ten Commandments inside the Supreme Court's courtroom


"Liberty of Worship" statute resting on the Ten Commandments outside the Ronald Reagan Building


The Ten Commandments in the floor of the National Archives


The Adams Prayer Mantel in the White House


Painting called "Knowledge" in the North Hall of the Library of Congress


An excerpt from Virginia's Statute of Religious Freedom, authored by Thomas Jefferson, on the wall of the Jefferson Memorial


"De Soto's Burial in the Mississippi River" in the rotunda of the U.S. Capitol


A stained glass window of George Washington praying, in the chapel in the U.S. Capitol


A phrase from Lord Tennyson in the rotunda of the Library of Congress


A painting of the Roman goddess of war in the Senate side of the U.S. Capitol


An excerpt from Abraham Lincoln's second inaugural speech carved into the interior of the Lincoln Memorial

10 posted on 08/29/2005 4:55:58 AM PDT by Calpernia (Breederville.com)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Labyrinthos

probably NOT and justifiably so.The first prayer in America
by Congressional act was provided by Rev. Jacob Duche--Tuesday Sept.6,1774 Resolved That the Rev.Mr.Duche be desired to open the Congress tomorrow morning with prayers,at the Carpenters Hall,at 9 o'clock.The 35th Psalm was read by the Rev.Jacob Duche and the first prayer in Congress,Sep.7,1774 began "Be thou present O God of Wisdom
,and direct the counsel of this Honorable Assembly;" and ended "All this we ask in the name and through the merits
of Jesus Christ ,Thy Son and our Savior,Amen." And throughout American History prayers have been issued before government bodies (at the discretion of the Christian
minister) closing as did that first Prayer"in the Name and
through the merits of Jesus Christ ,Thy Son,and our Savior"
or varients thereof. Only the Truely Ignorant or those hostile to our foundation would suggest Prayer must be
given in any other name to any God Not recognized by our
Founders as the God they trusted and believed in.


11 posted on 08/29/2005 4:55:59 AM PDT by StonyBurk
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: StonyBurk

ACLU = Anti Christ Lawyers Union

AKA the legal wing of Satan's forces......


12 posted on 08/29/2005 4:59:55 AM PDT by boilerfan (Hoosier born and Boilermaker educated!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: Calpernia

Here's the added point, does this attorney posit that legislators and executives in the public arena cannot derive their views on policy from their religious beliefs? Will there actually be thought crime, as foretold by George Orwell and in fact will it be "enforced" also foretold, by the Left? Which the ACLU enshrines.


13 posted on 08/29/2005 5:06:14 AM PDT by saveliberty ("The mystery of government is not how Washington works but how to make it stop." - PJ O'Rourke)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: StonyBurk

If the Founding Fathers intended to limit the First Amendment to a particular God or religious practice, then they should have said so. Since they didn't, I have to assume that if a local government wants to start a meeting with a prayer to the Boogyman, they have the constitutional right to do so.


14 posted on 08/29/2005 5:07:32 AM PDT by Labyrinthos
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: Labyrinthos
IF people were invited to voluntarily do so (pray to Mecca or whatever Scientology prays to) prior to a meeting in the USA, just how many do you really think would actually do so?

I am Jewish. Christianity is still the majority religion in this country. I am 62 and have heard this sort of invitation to voluntary prayer all my life in public places, meetings and events and I am not offended. It is actually comforting.

The Muslims and the Scientologists and the Wiccans are still unable to offer a chance a pray in their manner and have everyone or almost everyone present agree.

In majority Jewish areas, the prayers are offered to God.
15 posted on 08/29/2005 5:08:16 AM PDT by reformedliberal (Bless our troops and pray for our nation.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: boilerfan; Calpernia; hildy123

16 posted on 08/29/2005 5:10:31 AM PDT by alessandrofiaschi (Is Roberts really a conservative?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: Calpernia
Oops, typo in that one image code:


A painting of the Roman goddess of war in the Senate side of the U.S. Capitol

17 posted on 08/29/2005 5:12:44 AM PDT by Calpernia (Breederville.com)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: saveliberty

I've not read George Orwell.


18 posted on 08/29/2005 5:14:44 AM PDT by Calpernia (Breederville.com)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: Calpernia

He is worth reading. He is no defender of capitalism -- he was a big socialist, but he was brutally honest about where he thought socialism/big government were going. For that reason, he is really worth the time and effort.


19 posted on 08/29/2005 5:18:25 AM PDT by saveliberty ("The mystery of government is not how Washington works but how to make it stop." - PJ O'Rourke)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: boilerfan

Who are those `five county residents' offended by public prayer, and where do they live and work?

Who is the ACLU lawyer bringing this lawsuit and where does he/she live and work?


20 posted on 08/29/2005 5:22:27 AM PDT by elcid1970
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: Labyrinthos

You said: I assume Mr. Crampton would feel the same way if they started out each meeting by facing Mecca and praying to Allah or by chanting some scientology crap.


I don't think there is the same historical record of praying to Allah, etc. in the United States. That said, I could stomach another person praying to his/her God while I pray to mine at the same time.


21 posted on 08/29/2005 5:26:26 AM PDT by NCLaw441
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: reformedliberal

I am not personally offended by prayers to the Judeo/Christian God or to Jesus. I am personally offended by prayers to Allah or any other God that advocates the murder of Jews and Christians. I am also offended by Scientology chants, Wicca spells, and the mantras of other non-religious religions. But, since the Constitution doesn't espressly prefer one religion to the exclusion of others, I don't see how some government organization can start a meeting with a Christain prayer without allowing prayers to the God of terror. The better approach is for government to do the government stuff and let people pray on their own time or pray silently to themselves.


22 posted on 08/29/2005 5:27:52 AM PDT by Labyrinthos
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: elcid1970

Are ACLU lawyers paid or volunteer?


23 posted on 08/29/2005 5:50:07 AM PDT by hildy123 (Bring back Patton)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: Calpernia

Interesting, all those governement references to God, but not one to Jesus Christ (though one obliquely with the citing of a preached Gospel).


24 posted on 08/29/2005 5:53:11 AM PDT by NC28203
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: Labyrinthos
I assume Mr. Crampton would feel the same way if they started out each meeting by facing Mecca and praying to Allah or by chanting some scientology crap.

How Mr. Crampton "feels" about anything is not the issue.

The issue is whether or not this prayer violates the Constitution. A strict constructionist would say "no." A "living, breathing document with emanating penumbras" bozo would say "yes."

25 posted on 08/29/2005 5:54:27 AM PDT by Skooz ("Political Correctness is the handmaiden of terrorism" - Michelle Malkin)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: hildy123
How totally absurd and silly we have become! It seems that now our prayers have to undergo legal scrutiny.

So--5 people were offended! As far as I know, there is no right not to be offended. The ACLU should stuff it back up their backsides and get the hell out of Dodge!

26 posted on 08/29/2005 5:54:42 AM PDT by basil (Exercise your Second Amendment--buy another gun today!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: hildy123

I thought what the first amendment said was the government could NOT infringe on religion.


27 posted on 08/29/2005 5:59:32 AM PDT by eyespysomething (What disgusts me the most is how other GStar families have had their wounds ripped back open! FU CS)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: NC28203

The photos are an essay are showing the relation of our laws to the commandments.

Jesus wasn't around yet ;)


28 posted on 08/29/2005 6:05:00 AM PDT by Calpernia (Breederville.com)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies]

To: highlymotivated
A merican
C ommunist
L iberation
U nit
29 posted on 08/29/2005 6:44:55 AM PDT by Just A Nobody (I - LOVE - my attitude problem !)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: Rebelbase
I am offended by the ACLU

So am I! That makes 2 of us. If we can get 5 of us to say we are offended by them - can we sue to disarm...er...ban them?

30 posted on 08/29/2005 6:48:42 AM PDT by Just A Nobody (I - LOVE - my attitude problem !)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: Calpernia

Wow...I had know idea...I am going to use this with some "progressives" I know...


31 posted on 08/29/2005 6:55:17 AM PDT by Tulane
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: hildy123

Too bad the ACLU has its head up its @$$ with the "free exorcise thereof" part.


32 posted on 08/29/2005 6:56:00 AM PDT by Manic_Episode (I wear a super hero costume while FReeping)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: hildy123

So someone (in this case 5)is offended. So what? Can't someont just tell the ACLU to pound sand?


33 posted on 08/29/2005 7:00:23 AM PDT by bk1000 (A clear conscience is a sure sign of a poor memory)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: hildy123; All
Congressional Record--Appendix, pp. A34-A35 January 10, 1963 Current Communist Goals
EXTENSION OF REMARKS OF HON. A. S. HERLONG, JR. OF FLORIDA
IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
Thursday, January 10, 1963

16. Use technical decisions of the courts to weaken basic American institutions, by claiming their activities violate civil rights.
(This strategy goes back to the founding of the American Civil Liberties Union by Fabian Socialists Roger Baldwin and John Dewey and Communists William Z. Foster and Elizabeth Gurley Flynn among others.

27. Infiltrate the churches and replace revealed religion with "social" religion. Discredit the Bible and emphasize the need for intellectual maturity which does not need a "religious crutch."

29. Discredit the American Constitution by calling it inadequate, old-fashioned, out of step with modern needs, a hindrance to cooperation between nations on a worldwide basis.

34 posted on 08/29/2005 7:21:02 AM PDT by Just A Nobody (I - LOVE - my attitude problem !)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: hildy123
A Georgia county is being sued by the American Civil Liberties Union over its pre-meeting prayers.

I guess if they were to sacrifice a live goat to the Gods of earth, wind and water and dance naked in the meeting hall, the ACLU would have argued in their behalf for their "freedom of religion".

35 posted on 08/29/2005 7:24:35 AM PDT by Quinotto (On matters of style swim with the current,on matters of principle stand like a rock-Thomas Jefferson)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: hildy123
A Georgia county is being sued by the American Civil Liberties Union over its pre-meeting prayers.

I guess if they were to sacrifice a live goat to the Gods of earth, wind and water and dance naked in the meeting hall, the ACLU would have argued in their behalf for their "freedom of religion".

36 posted on 08/29/2005 7:24:36 AM PDT by Quinotto (On matters of style swim with the current,on matters of principle stand like a rock-Thomas Jefferson)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: hildy123

so how long til the ACLU gets its hands on nascar? last time i checked they still started every race with a prayer.


37 posted on 08/29/2005 7:39:31 AM PDT by absolootezer0 ("My God, why have you forsaken us.. no wait, its the liberals that have forsaken you... my bad")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Labyrinthos

Mere speculation and transferral of your unbelief is an
arguement of error. I cannot accept your dementia.


38 posted on 08/29/2005 1:43:25 PM PDT by StonyBurk
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: hildy123

Paid by our taxed incomes thanks to a poorly written act of
Congress intended to promote Civil Rights- misinterpreted and exploited by the transmission belt to Soviet Communist
dictatorship (the ACLU)and their useful idiots.


39 posted on 08/29/2005 1:47:25 PM PDT by StonyBurk
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: StonyBurk

Your point is...?


40 posted on 08/29/2005 2:16:23 PM PDT by Labyrinthos
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 38 | View Replies]

To: Calpernia
ACLU appeals federal decision in Ga. prayer case - Aug. 21, 2008 - Civil liberties attorneys Wednesday urged a federal appeals panel to block a suburban Atlanta county from allowing clergy to open meetings with Christian prayers, although the judges seemed reluctant to overturn a lower court's ruling upholding the practice.

The American Civil Liberties Union has asked the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals to reverse a federal judge's July 2007 refusal to issue an injunction against Cobb County officials who began meetings of its Board of Commissioners and planning commission with invocational prayers from invited clergy.

As soon as the ACLU attorney began to argue that Cobb County went too far allowing religious prayer before meetings, the three-judge panel peppered him with questions.

"What about 'King of Kings?' Is that sectarian?" prodded federal appeals court Judge Bill Pryor, before adding a few more. "What about 'Lord of Lords?' What about 'God of Abraham?' "

It's the latest flash point of the debate over just how thick the line dividing church and state should be.

Cobb County officials said clergy from all faiths are allowed to deliver the prayers, but ACLU lawyers contended the invocations are "overtly Christian prayers" that send a message that the religion is sponsored by the county.

ACLU attorney Daniel Mach said the county could send letters to clergy urging them not to invoke religious messages, just as it already urges them not to disparage other religions.

Cobb County attorney David Walbert warned that tinkering with the requirements could make it a "virtual impossibility" for clergy to come up with something meaningful.

The argument stems from a 2005 lawsuit filed by the ACLU filed on behalf of seven residents.

The group didn't contest the right to pray, but challenged the "sectarian" contents of some of the prayers, noting that 70 percent of them were Christian in nature. And it criticized the way officials picked its clergy, partly by thumbing through phone books.

U.S. District Judge Richard Story ruled in July 2007 the method used to pick the clergy was flawed, but he did not rule the prayers should be stopped. Instead, he ordered the county to award $1 each to the seven residents who sued.

Judge Charles Wilson challenged the ACLU to define the difference between prayer and sectarian prayer. And Judge Donald Middlebrooks said he was concerned that adding requirements "waters down" the prayer.

But the most outspoken among them was Pryor, a former Alabama attorney general. He talked of the nation's "200-year unbroken tradition of prayer" and the long history of prayer in Congress.

He also coyly noted that even the Supreme Court opens its session with an invocation that could be viewed as sectarian: "God save the United States and this honorable court."

How to Beat the ACLU at Its Own Game

The American Civil Liberties Union is asking the 11th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals to stop Cobb County, Georgia, from opening its meetings with prayers that mention Jesus or use other "sectarian" references, claiming the invocations represent government favoritism of Christianity. The simple solution is for any Christian who is called on to open a meeting with prayer to end it with these simple words: "We make this prayer in the Year of our Lord 2008," or whatever the year is at the time. There is no way the ACLU or the courts can object on constitutional grounds because "Year of our Lord" is part of the Constitution. You can read it just above George Washington's signature. This is an obvious reference to Jesus because of the use of "Lord" and the dating from the time of Jesus' birth which is also part of the Constitution: "one thousand, seven hundred and eighty seven." This date only has significance in relation to the birth of Jesus Christ. This practice would mute the claim that the United States Government can't favor Christianity since Jesus is the centerpiece of Christianity, and the Constitution acknowledges this by its recognition of anno domini, A.D., "the year of our Lord." It's a logical step to reason that if the Constitution makes a reference to Jesus, even if indirectly, how is it possible that using Jesus' name at a government meeting, which claims to follow the Constitution, is unconstitutional?

Then there is the problem of historical precedent. On March 16, 1776, "by order of Congress" a "day of Humiliation, Fasting and Prayer" where people of the nation were called on to "acknowledge the over ruling providence of God" and bewail their "manifold sins and transgressions, and, by a sincere repentance and amendment of life, appease his righteous displeasure, and, through the merits and mediation of Jesus Christ, obtain his pardon and forgiveness" (see here).1

Congress set aside December 18, 1777 as a day of thanksgiving so the American people "may express the grateful feelings of their hearts and consecrate themselves to the service of their divine benefactor"2 and on which they might "join the penitent confession of their manifold sins . . . that it may please God, through the merits of Jesus Christ, mercifully to forgive and blot them out of remembrance." Congress also recommended that Americans petition God "to prosper the means of religion for the promotion and enlargement of that kingdom which consists in righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Ghost" (see here).3

The first order of business of the first United States Congress was to appoint chaplains. The Right Reverend Bishop Samuel Provost and the Reverend William Linn became paid chaplains of the Senate and House respectively. Since then, both the Senate and the House have continued regularly to open their sessions with prayer. Nearly all of the fifty states make some provision in their meetings for opening prayers or devotions from guest chaplains. Few if any saw this as a violation of the First Amendment since the provision came from those who drafted the Constitution.

On April 30, 1789, George Washington took the oath of office with his hand on an open Bible. After taking the oath, he added, "I swear, so help me God." Following Washington's example, presidents still invoke God's name in their swearing-in ceremony.4 The inauguration was followed by "divine services" held in St. Paul's Chapel in New York, "performed by the Chaplain of Congress."5 The first Congress that convened after the adoption of the Constitution requested of the President that the people of the United States observe a day of thanksgiving and prayer:

That a joint committee of both Houses be directed to wait upon the President of the United States to request that he would recommend to the people of the United States a day of public thanksgiving and prayer, to be observed by acknowledging, with grateful hearts, the many signal favors of Almighty God, especially by affording them an opportunity peaceably to establish a Constitution of government for their safety and happiness.

After the resolution’s adoption, Washington then issued a proclamation setting aside November 26, 1789, as a national day of thanksgiving, calling everyone to "unite in most humbly offering our prayers and supplications to the great Lord and Ruler of Nations, and beseech him to pardon our national and other transgressions."6

The ACLU does not have a constitutional, historical, or logical case to stop sectarian prayers. Organizations like the ACLU an Americans United for Separation of Church and State depend on the ignorance of the majority of the American people to make their anti-Christian propaganda believable.

1Original document can be viewed at www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/f0404s.jpg

2In another context, "divine benefactor" would be viewed as a deist ascription to an unnamed deity. It’s obvious that in this context the Christian God is in view.

3A copy of the original document can be viewed at www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/vc006494.jpg

4Richard G. Hutcheson, Jr., God in the White House: How Religion Has Changed the Modern Presidency (New York: Macmillan, 1988), 37.

5Anson Phelps Stokes and Leo Pfeffer, Church and State in the United States, one-volume ed. (New York: Harper & Row, 1964), 87.

6Quoted in Stokes and Pfeffer, Church and State in the United States, 87.



41 posted on 10/13/2008 7:49:01 PM PDT by Tailgunner Joe
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson