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Who’s Responsible For New Orleans?
www.dcthornton.com ^ | September 2, 2005 | dcthornton

Posted on 09/03/2005 9:02:07 PM PDT by wildwood

Who’s Responsible For New Orleans?

by D.C. Thornton @ 11:58 pm. Filed under Commentary, Blogosphere

If critics of the Hurricane Katrina disaster are going to play the blame game, they should at least play according to Hoyle.

A comment to a Blogs for Bush posting sums up my thoughts on the issue clearly. I’m reposting it here in its entirety:

In case you aren’t familiar with how our government is SUPPOSED to work:

The chain of responsiblity for the protection of the citizens in New Orleans is:

1. The Mayor

2. The New Orleans director of Homeland Security (a political appointee of the Governor who reports to the Governor)

3. The Governor

4. The Head of Homeland Security

5. The President

What did each do?

1. The mayor, with 5 days advance, waited until 2 days before he announced a mandatory evacuation (at the behest of the President). The he failed to provide transportation for those without transport even though he had hundreds of buses at his disposal.

2. The New Orleans director of Homeland Security failed to have any plan for a contingency that has been talked about for 50 years. Then he blames the Feds for not doing what he should have done. (So much for political appointees)

3. The Governor, despite a declaration of disaster by the President 2 DAYS BEFORE the storm hit, failed to take advantage of the offer of Federal troops and aid. Until 2 DAYS AFTER the storm hit.

4. The Director of Homeland Security positioned assets in the area to be ready when the Governor called for them

5. The President urged a mandatory evacuation, and even declared a disaster State of Emergency, freeing up millions of dollars of federal assistance, should the Governor decide to use it.

Oh and by the way, the levees that broke were the responsibility of the local landowners and the local levee board to maintain, NOT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.

The disaster in New Orleans is what you get after decades of corrupt (democrat) government going all the way back to Huey Long.

Funds for disaster protection and relief have been flowing into this city for decades, and where has it gone, but into the pockets of the politicos and their friends.

Decades of socialist government in New Orleans has sapped all self reliance from the community, and made them dependent upon government for every little thing.

Political correctness and a lack of will to fight crime have created the single most corrupt police force in the country, and has permitted gang violence to flourish.

The sad thing is that there are many poor folks who have suffered and died needlessly because those that they voted into office failed them. For those who missed item 5 (where the President’s level of accountability is discussed), it is made more clear in a New Orleans Times-Picayune article dated August 28:

NEW ORLEANS (AP) — In the face of a catastrophic Hurricane Katrina, a mandatory evacuation was ordered Sunday for New Orleans by Mayor Ray Nagin.

Acknowledging that large numbers of people, many of them stranded tourists, would be unable to leave, the city set up 10 places of last resort for people to go, including the Superdome.

The mayor called the order unprecedented and said anyone who could leave the city should. He exempted hotels from the evacuation order because airlines had already cancelled all flights.

Gov. Kathleen Blanco, standing beside the mayor at a news conference, said President Bush called and personally appealed for a mandatory evacuation for the low-lying city, which is prone to flooding. (emphasis mine)

The ball was placed in Mayor Nagin’s court to carry out the evacuation order. With a 5-day heads-up, he had the authority to use any and all services to evacuate all residents from the city, as documented in a city emergency preparedness plan. By waiting until the last minute, and failing to make full use of resources available within city limits, Nagin and his administration f**ked up.

Mayor Nagin and his emergency sidekick Terry Ebbert have displayed lethal, mind boggling incompetence before, during and after Katrina. […]

As for Mayor Nagin, he and his profile in pathetic leadership police chief should resign as well. That city’s government is incompetent from one end to the other. The people of New Orleans deserve better than this crowd of clowns is capable of giving them.

If you’re keeping track, these boobs let 569 buses that could have carried 33,350 people out of New Orleans–in one trip–get ruined in the floods. Whatever plan these guys had, it was a dud. Or it probably would have been if they’d bothered to follow it.

As for all the race-baiting rhetoric and Bush-bashing coming from prominent blacks on the left, don’t expect Ray Nagin to be called out on the carpet for falling short. You want to know why? Here’s why:

It’s more convenient to blame a white president for what went wrong than to hold a black mayor and his administration accountable for gross negligence and failing to fully carry out an established emergency preparedness plan.

To hold Nagin and his administration accountable for dropping the ball amounts to letting loose the shouts and cries of “Racism!”. It’s sad, it’s wrong, but it’s standard operating procedure for the media and left-wing black leadership.

Mark my words: you will not hear a word of criticism from Jesse Jackson Sr., Randall Robinson, the Congressional Black Caucus, the NAACP, or Kanye West being directed toward Raymond Nagin. Why? Because he is a mere black politician instead of an effective elected official who happens to be black. In the mindset of more-blacker-than-thou blacks, black politicians who are on their side can do no wrong.

(links via Sister Toldjah, Balloon Juice, and Ramblings’ Journal)

Update: JunkYardBlog points out more evacuation plans at the state level which weren’t implemented.


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Government; US: Louisiana
KEYWORDS: incompetence; katrina; katrinafailures; zaq
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1 posted on 09/03/2005 9:02:09 PM PDT by wildwood
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To: wildwood
The french, you forgot them
2 posted on 09/03/2005 9:05:04 PM PDT by dts32041 (Shinkichi: Massuer, did you see that? Zatôichi: I don't see much)
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To: wildwood

Shortly before midnight Friday, the Bush administration sent her a proposed legal memorandum asking her to request a federal takeover of the evacuation of New Orleans, a source within the state's emergency operations center said Saturday.

The administration sought unified control over all local police and state National Guard units reporting to the governor. Louisiana officials rejected the request after talks throughout the night, concerned that such a move would be comparable to a federal declaration of martial law.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/03/AR2005090301680.html



3 posted on 09/03/2005 9:05:44 PM PDT by Peach (South Carolina is praying for our Gulf coast citizens.)
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To: wildwood

ping


4 posted on 09/03/2005 9:05:45 PM PDT by PROSOUTH ( Deo Vindice "God Will Vindicate")
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To: wildwood

enough already - there must be 550 threads on this. Seriously, serach before you start a new thred.


5 posted on 09/03/2005 9:05:49 PM PDT by pure_capitalist (The average American works until July to pay all taxes: federal, state &local -www.clubforgrowth.org)
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To: wildwood

bttt


6 posted on 09/03/2005 9:06:30 PM PDT by stainlessbanner
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To: dts32041

I don't get it.

This is supposed to be a political debate forum, but I never see any substantial debate at all.

I saw a post earlier today that seemed like a reasonable (and mild) criticism and it was deleted.

Then it happened again. There was a small post that seemed like it was reasonable enough and it was deleted.

The terms of service says that Free Republic doesn't censor its posts, but thats what it looks like to me.


7 posted on 09/03/2005 9:07:41 PM PDT by morgans
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To: wildwood

Bush is responsible. Had he just cared enough and sang koom bye ah, then he'd be out of trouble. Oh, don't forget his negligence of not having scented candles in the oval office.


8 posted on 09/03/2005 9:09:05 PM PDT by MAD-AS-HELL (Bring in Emeril to kick it up a notch in NOLA!)
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To: wildwood

To hold Nagin and his administration accountable for dropping the ball amounts to letting loose the shouts and cries of “Racism!”. It’s sad, it’s wrong, but it’s standard operating procedure for the media and left-wing black leadership.

'Mark my words: you will not hear a word of criticism from Jesse Jackson Sr., Randall Robinson, the Congressional Black Caucus, the NAACP, or Kanye West being directed toward Raymond Nagin. Why? Because he is a mere black politician instead of an effective elected official who happens to be black. In the mindset of more-blacker-than-thou blacks, black politicians who are on their side can do no wrong.'

'Nuff said!


9 posted on 09/03/2005 9:10:16 PM PDT by T Lady (The American Left: Useful Idiots for Terrorist Regimes)
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To: morgans
Quit your bitchin and hang around for a little bit, we don't tolerate slander cannibals in NOLA's or DU's who try to disrupt things with asinine touchy feely stories.

That be said observe a little more before you post again and get a feel for the place and BTW Welcome.

10 posted on 09/03/2005 9:11:10 PM PDT by dts32041 (Shinkichi: Massuer, did you see that? Zatôichi: I don't see much)
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To: morgans

One: the debate is between elements of the right, not right/left.

Two: excellent lack of substantive discussion.

Three: post deletion is not censorship, as censorship is the editing out of information, not the complete denial of expression.

Four: go back to DU.


11 posted on 09/03/2005 9:11:10 PM PDT by Terpfen (Liberals call the Constitution a living document because they enjoy torturing it.)
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To: wildwood
Katrina is responsible for New Orleans.

A CAT 4 hurricane slamming into an area below sea level.

12 posted on 09/03/2005 9:11:11 PM PDT by LdSentinal
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To: dts32041

It is worth noting that in recent disasters, no one shot at rescue helicopters, doctors, police or firemen. I never heard of rapes or murders in the tsunami or 9/11 aftermath, either.


13 posted on 09/03/2005 9:11:12 PM PDT by Nephi (Global warming is a political strategy.)
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To: wildwood

Quote of the Day

"When we get back to the states... ,"
-- NBC news anchor Brian Williams,
forgetting he was in the United States


14 posted on 09/03/2005 9:11:47 PM PDT by TShaunK
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To: morgans

So what is the point of debate on the article that you would like to bring up? Are simply posting to bitch about the forum?


15 posted on 09/03/2005 9:11:53 PM PDT by johniegrad
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To: wildwood
IEM Team to Develop Catastrophic Hurricane Disaster Plan for New Orleans & Southeast Louisiana

June 3, 2004

IEM, Inc., the Baton Rouge-based emergency management and homeland security consultant, will lead the development of a catastrophic hurricane disaster plan for Southeast Louisiana and the City of New Orleans under a more than half a million dollar contract with the U.S. Department of Homeland Security/Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA).

In making the announcement today on behalf of teaming partners Dewberry, URS Corporation and James Lee Witt Associates, IEM Director of Homeland Security Wayne Thomas explained that the development of a base catastrophic hurricane disaster plan has urgency due to the recent start of the annual hurricane season which runs through November. National weather experts are predicting an above normal Atlantic hurricane season with six to eight hurricanes, of which three could be categorized as major.

The IEM team will complete a functional exercise on a catastrophic hurricane strike in Southeast Louisiana and use results to develop a response and recovery plan. A catastrophic event is one that can overwhelm State, local and private capabilities so quickly that communities could be devastated without Federal assistance and multi-agency planning and preparedness.

Thomas said that the greater New Orleans area is one of the nation’s most vulnerable locations for hurricane landfall.

“Given this area’s vulnerability, unique geographic location and elevation, and troubled escape routes, a plan that facilitates a rapid and effective hurricane response and recovery is critical,” he said. “The IEM team’s approach to catastrophic planning meets the challenges associated with integrating multi-jurisdictional needs and capabilities into an effective plan for addressing catastrophic hurricane strikes, as well as man-made catastrophic events.”

IEM President and CEO Madhu Beriwal is the recipient of a s pecial merit award from the Louisiana Emergency Preparedness Association ( LEPA ) for her work in New Orleans hurricane emergency preparedness.

IEM, Inc. was founded in 1985, and is one of the leading emergency management corporations in the U.S. While some organizations include emergency management as one of many business areas, helping to plan for and manage emergencies is IEM’s core business . IEM’s clients include some of the foremost federal emergency and defense organizations in the U.S., including the Department of Homeland Security/FEMA, the Defense Threat Reduction Agency and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. www.ieminc.com

Established in 1956, Dewberry is a multidisciplinary planning, engineering, and design firm, employing more than 1,600 individuals. As FEMA’s largest contractor, Dewberry plays a significant role in the national effort to reduce the impact of both natural (flood, fire, earthquake, tropical storm, cyclone, hurricane, tornado, and winter storm) and man-made (hazardous waste, terrorism, etc.) hazards on people, property, and the economy. www.dewberry.com

URS Corporation provides planning, engineering, architecture, and applied science to hundreds of government agencies and private industrial and commercial companies worldwide. The company has more than 26,000 employees -- the largest Architectural & Engineering firm in the U. S. for the fourth consecutive year.URS has approximately 500 employees in Louisiana. URS has over 30 years of experience in hazard mitigation planning and engineering support work for FEMA and other customers. www.urscorp.com

James Lee Witt Associates, LLC, established in 2001 by the former director of the Federal Emergency Management Agency, is a leader in public safety and crisis management. Headquartered in Washington, D.C., with offices in Atlanta, Chicago and Sacramento, James Lee Witt Associates works with state, local and foreign governments, corporations, hospitals, universities and utilities in conducting vulnerability assessments, after-event audits and reviews, developing all-hazard emergency and continuity of operations planning, as well as with the telecommunications industry on wireless interoperability. www.wittassociates.com

IEM is a minority and woman-owned business enterprise (MWBE) and offers services through the GSA Federal Supply Schedule. Where applicable, all work conducted under the GSA contract will be compliant with Section 508 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973.

I wonder where the half-million went.

16 posted on 09/03/2005 9:11:57 PM PDT by Fog Nozzle
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To: wildwood

bump


17 posted on 09/03/2005 9:13:03 PM PDT by TASMANIANRED (Conservatives are from Earth. Liberals are from Uranus.(c))
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To: morgans

FR is 'private property' and not affiliated or funded by the government.
Removing posts due to serial repeat retreads is not 'censorship'.


18 posted on 09/03/2005 9:13:50 PM PDT by Darksheare (There is a Possum in the works.)
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To: Nephi
Actually during the tsunami there were certain places the choppers and rescuers were ordered not to go cause of the islamic terrorists.
19 posted on 09/03/2005 9:14:07 PM PDT by dts32041 (Shinkichi: Massuer, did you see that? Zatôichi: I don't see much)
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To: wildwood

Thanks...ping for later read.


20 posted on 09/03/2005 9:14:13 PM PDT by Former Dodger ( "Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." --Einstein)
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To: wildwood

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/1476694/posts


Not to break my own arm but the documentation on the dates and links are here.

Spent the whole day putting them together.


21 posted on 09/03/2005 9:14:16 PM PDT by TASMANIANRED (Conservatives are from Earth. Liberals are from Uranus.(c))
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To: pure_capitalist

I always serach before posting but never find anything.


22 posted on 09/03/2005 9:14:26 PM PDT by Fog Nozzle
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To: wildwood

To be fair, I would also fault the Bush admin for not recognizing and responding fast enough to the incompetence at the Louisiana local and state level.

- Who would have expected the mayor of New Orleans who has lived around hurricanes all his life and through Betsy in 1965, to lose it on live TV because of a known hurricane disaster and be reduced to cowardly blame-shifting?

- Who would have expected a lot of the N.O. police to leave their jobs?

- Who would have expected them to let prisoners go lose? Who would have anticipated they would allow rapes and murder to go answered?

The President is at fault for being too slow in sizing up these bozo's.


23 posted on 09/03/2005 9:14:28 PM PDT by plain talk
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To: wildwood

Thanks for your report.
You should post this every day for the next 9 months.
Good work and keep it coming


24 posted on 09/03/2005 9:14:32 PM PDT by gibonski
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To: Peach

Also Blanco did not ask for multi state National Guard assistance until Wednesday.


25 posted on 09/03/2005 9:15:04 PM PDT by TASMANIANRED (Conservatives are from Earth. Liberals are from Uranus.(c))
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To: morgans
This is supposed to be a political debate forum, but I never see any substantial debate at all.

You're kidding, right?

Have you even read these boards? All I see is political debate..out the wazzoo...all over this forum.

26 posted on 09/03/2005 9:15:09 PM PDT by Jorge
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To: wildwood
Mark my words: you will not hear a word of criticism from Jesse Jackson Sr., Randall Robinson, the Congressional Black Caucus, the NAACP, or Kanye West being directed toward Raymond Nagin. Why? Because he is a mere black politician

I would like to add a little more to that...
Why won't criticism be hurled toward Nagin from the Black Caucus or the NAACP?
NOT just because he is black, but because he is a black democrat.

27 posted on 09/03/2005 9:15:36 PM PDT by Echo Talon (http://echotalon.blogspot.com)
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To: wildwood

And don't listen to CNN. They try to perpetuate the notion that Black Americans hate Pres Bush.

I'm in Minnesota, and even way up here, some members of the Black 'community' are aware that the Mayor is incompetent and the police are corrupt.


28 posted on 09/03/2005 9:16:02 PM PDT by Lijahsbubbe (To the world you may be one person, but to one person you may be the world)
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To: MAD-AS-HELL

You forgot the most important thing. To go on tv, bite his lip and wipe a tear away.


29 posted on 09/03/2005 9:16:23 PM PDT by dfwgator
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To: wildwood; Wolfstar

Pinging you to this enlightening article about the chain of responsibility for protection of the citizens of New Orleans.

Many pertinent facts to add to your timeline......Julie


30 posted on 09/03/2005 9:17:40 PM PDT by JulieRNR21 (Say 'Goodnight' Cindy.....Your 15 minutes are up!)
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To: wildwood

Listen guys I should have come out sooner and told ya'll but... I'm the one responsible for Katrina. Bush gets a pass this time around.


31 posted on 09/03/2005 9:17:44 PM PDT by IronChefSakai (Life, Liberty, and Limited Government!)
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To: morgans

Multiple retread banned.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1103363/posts


32 posted on 09/03/2005 9:17:45 PM PDT by Jim Robinson
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To: wildwood

I wonder was any effort made to identify those who would need public transportation to evacuate? Was there any effort to find out how many of the population would qualify for evacuation to special needs shelters? Did the City government not realize that they should move all public work vehicles/ police vehicles/ fire vehicles/ buses to safety when warned a Cat 5 storm was approaching. Did City officials have a back up communication plan? Did City officials know the procedure for requesting FEMA assistance?
Was evacuation of hospitals/ nursing homes/ and the like given any priority?. Was there any kind of survey done to find out what type of shelters would be available outside of N.O. in the event of mandatory evacuation? I have to wonder about these things.


33 posted on 09/03/2005 9:18:10 PM PDT by lastchance (Hug your babies.)
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To: plain talk

He tried to federalize the National Guard, the governor wouldn't budge.


34 posted on 09/03/2005 9:18:17 PM PDT by SouthTexas
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To: plain talk
To be fair, I would also fault the Bush admin for not recognizing and responding fast enough to the incompetence at the Louisiana local and state level.

See #3.

35 posted on 09/03/2005 9:18:40 PM PDT by dfwgator
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To: wildwood
FWIW, the DHS believes that it has the primary responsibility for responding to natural disasters.

From http://www.dhs.gov/dhspublic/theme_home2.jsp

In the event of a terrorist attack, natural disaster or other large-scale emergency, the Department of Homeland Security will assume primary responsibility on March 1st for ensuring that emergency response professionals are prepared for any situation. This will entail providing a coordinated, comprehensive federal response to any large-scale crisis and mounting a swift and effective recovery effort. The new Department will also prioritize the important issue of citizen preparedness. Educating America's families on how best to prepare their homes for a disaster and tips for citizens on how to respond in a crisis will be given special attention at DHS.

36 posted on 09/03/2005 9:18:42 PM PDT by va4me ("Government isn't the solution to the problem, it is the problem" - Ronald Reagan)
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To: plain talk

The only Way the POTUS could have moved quicker was to declare war on LA.


37 posted on 09/03/2005 9:19:09 PM PDT by TASMANIANRED (Conservatives are from Earth. Liberals are from Uranus.(c))
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To: wildwood

Here is what Mayor Nagin's web site last said about the hurricane

http://www.cityofno.com/portal.aspx?portal=1&load=~/PortalModules/ViewPressRelease.ascx&itemid=3139

This was Saturday, Aug 27:

"“Although the track could change, forecasters believe Hurricane Katrina will affect New Orleans,” said Mayor Nagin. “We may call for a voluntary evacuation later this afternoon or tomorrow morning to coincide with the instatement of contraflow. This will give people more options to leave the area. However, citizens need to begin preparing now so they will be ready to leave when necessary. Do everything to prepare for a regular hurricane, but treat this one differently because it is headed our way. This is not a test.”

"“The key is being prepared for the event,” said Mayor Nagin. “We’re doing everything we can to make sure our city is safe.”

Shelters for Citizens with Special Medical Needs

There are two shelters for people with special medical needs open in the state. Citizens should call prior to going to the shelters. The shelter in Alexandria can be reached at (800) 841-5778; the number for Monroe’s shelter is (866) 280-7287. If it becomes necessary, other shelters will be opened in various cities. The Superdome will be opened as a refuge of last resort for special needs patients if it becomes necessary. All individuals may have one caretaker.

Anyone planning to spend time in a shelter should bring three to four days’ worth of food, sleeping gear, and medical supplies including oxygen, medicine and batteries for any necessary devices. No weapons or bulky items are allowed in any shelters.


38 posted on 09/03/2005 9:19:25 PM PDT by plain talk
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To: wildwood
3. The Governor, despite a declaration of disaster by the President 2 DAYS BEFORE the storm hit, failed to take advantage of the offer of Federal troops and aid. Until 2 DAYS AFTER the storm hit.

That's not true, the governor requested FEMA assistance on 8/28, two days before the storm hit.

39 posted on 09/03/2005 9:19:27 PM PDT by va4me ("Government isn't the solution to the problem, it is the problem" - Ronald Reagan)
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To: IronChefSakai

I knew it was you.

Suspected it from day one.


40 posted on 09/03/2005 9:20:06 PM PDT by TASMANIANRED (Conservatives are from Earth. Liberals are from Uranus.(c))
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To: pure_capitalist

this article has not been posted. even if it were, it needs to be posted again. sorry, charlie.


41 posted on 09/03/2005 9:20:30 PM PDT by wildwood
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To: va4me

Bush had provided it already on 8/27.


42 posted on 09/03/2005 9:21:01 PM PDT by TASMANIANRED (Conservatives are from Earth. Liberals are from Uranus.(c))
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To: plain talk
"“The key is being prepared for the event,” said Mayor Nagin. “We’re doing everything we can to make sure our city is safe.”

That will go down as one of the worst things a politician has ever said.

43 posted on 09/03/2005 9:21:28 PM PDT by va4me ("Government isn't the solution to the problem, it is the problem" - Ronald Reagan)
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To: LdSentinal

I agree, Katrina is to blame for New Orleans.... bottom line: no hurricane, no flooding, no deaths (besides the murders which regularly occur in New Orleans). Pretty simple. Why do we have to blame any man or woman for what happened? Yes, they may have contributed here and there to the amount of damage and casualties... I suppose... but without Katrina, life would still be normal on the Gulf Coast.

I am amazed by the sheer incompetence of the Governor of LA, but the hurricane is what destroyed everything and killed most of the people there.


44 posted on 09/03/2005 9:22:23 PM PDT by Tuxedo (This space for rent.)
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To: va4me

FEMA and the National Guard are not the same thing. The NG could have aided, or done, the evac.


45 posted on 09/03/2005 9:22:46 PM PDT by SouthTexas
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To: wildwood
Actually this is a good post to make becuase I've seeen many so called conservatives blasting Bush the last few dyas and haven't said a peep about the mayor and governor !

It has just been sickening how the right piles on their own quarterback !

46 posted on 09/03/2005 9:23:49 PM PDT by america-rules
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To: morgans
"Despite the wailing of the liberal trolls and other doom & gloom naysayers, we feel no compelling need to allow them a platform to promote their repugnant and obnoxious propaganda from our forum. Free Republic is not a liberal debating society.

Statement by the founder of Free Republic

47 posted on 09/03/2005 9:24:01 PM PDT by Admin Moderator
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To: dfwgator

Granted. I was almost being tonque-in-cheek. What else can he do? Declare war on Lousiana?


48 posted on 09/03/2005 9:24:05 PM PDT by plain talk
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To: america-rules
AND

"The state Department of Homeland Security in Louisiana asked the Red Cross not to go into the city because they want that message to be, 'You need to leave the city. This isn't going to be a sheltering spot.' "

following the order of mayer, is the state department of homeland security, a POLITICAL APPOINTMENT:

"The state Department of Homeland Security in Louisiana asked the Red Cross not to go into the city because they want that message to be, 'You need to leave the city. This isn't going to be a sheltering spot.' "

who was THAT guy?

49 posted on 09/03/2005 9:27:16 PM PDT by wildwood
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To: wildwood
"1. The mayor, with 5 days advance, waited until 2 days before he announced a mandatory evacuation (at the behest of the President). The he failed to provide transportation for those without transport even though he had hundreds of buses at his disposal."



I thought Nagin ordered a mandatory evacuation "1" day before the storm hit? Your TP article says he ordered it on Sunday. Didn't the storm hit on Monday morning? Or am I losing it? lol
50 posted on 09/03/2005 9:27:37 PM PDT by Pirogue Captain
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