Posted on 09/04/2005 11:39:17 PM PDT by smoothsailing
Living in Pensacola and being hit by 6 major hurricanes within the last 15 years. Including Ivan, Dennis, and Katrina in the last 12 months.
Didn't the Aussies say that there was light at night or they probably would have been murdered?
This info you have posted should be on a thread of it's own. It is breaking news.
Chertoff are Brown are incompetent.
Dr. Max Mayfield, director of the National Hurricane Center, told the Times-Picayune Sunday afternoon that officials with the Federal Emergency Management Agency and the Department of Homeland Security, including FEMA Director Mike Brown and Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff, listened in on electronic briefings given by his staff in advance of Hurricane Katrina slamming Louisiana and Mississippi--and were advised of the storm’s potential deadly effects.
"Mayfield said the strength of the storm and the potential disaster it could bring were made clear during both the briefings and in formal advisories, which warned of a storm surge capable of overtopping levees in New Orleans and winds strong enough to blow out windows of high-rise buildings," the paper reported. "He said the briefings included information on expected wind speed, storm surge, rainfall and the potential for tornados to accompany the storm as it came ashore.
"We were briefing them way before landfall," Mayfield said. "It’s not like this was a surprise. We had in the advisories that the levee could be topped."
Hurricane Center Director Tells Paper He Briefed Brown and Chertoff on Danger of Severe Flooding
http://www.mediainfo.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1001054595
Perceptions are sometimes more important than reality. Chertoff did not appear to have a sense of urgency or to be forceful in his public appearances. GWB understood the need to get out front publicly and show that he was in charge. Gen Honore also understood the PR aspect of all this. If Chertoff had been more astute PR wise, he would have stepped in immediately to fill the leadership vacuum left by Blanco and Nagin, legalisms aside. We needed a man of action. Gen Honore became that man.
Didn't know until Thursday night?
Did they ever hear of Fox News or CNN?
It was on there 24/7! Did they EVER HEAR of the internet?
Not that I'm giving the mayor or Gov. a pass! They STRONGLY deserve the MAJORITY of criticism! I think MANY failed to get their sh!t together and worried too much about politics instead of getting something DONE!
I keep coming back to the photo of all those buses and it totally pi$$es me off!!!
Someone commented here on FR about the unionized bus drivers and the fact that they wouldn't have wanted to drive, blah blah blah. I say, take a lesson from that group and the 18-year old driver who escaped by "stolen schoolbus." Times like these call for loosening of the rules. I would have driven a frigging city bus if that was my only option for escape. I guarantee, in ANY group large enough to fit on a bus, there's bound to be ONE PERSON who has operated a LARGE vehicle before and would know how to handle it.
You were hit by Katrina in Pensacola? Or are you referring to residency in the state of Florida in general? Then you would share "qualifications" in disaster planning with 15 million people or so....
So you are saying they have nothing to worry about, thanks to the MSM?
"Even the problems that occurred at the Superdome this week had a precedent – during a threat by Hurricane Georges in 1998. An estimated 14,000 poured into the stadium, but theft and vandalism were rampant.
During the threat by Ivan, only 1,100 fled to the Superdome and they were supervised by 300 National Guardsmen, who were able to avoid major crime problems.
Gov. Kathleen Blanco and Nagin both acknowledged after the Ivan near miss they needed a better evacuation plan"
No I was hit by Katrina in Tuscaloosa, Al. Pensacola was also brushed by Katrina with Category 1 Force winds. Thats about the same as what hit Tuscaloosa.
I agree. I think there is plenty of blame to go around.
1. The local officials in NO are first in line for blame IMHO. They should have enacted evacuations before GW felt it necessary to call them personally and get on TV with his plea to evacuate.
2. The local authorities should have had a better plan in place and should have conducted drills in preparation because just about everyone knew this was going to happen eventually. While I don’t care at all for the Mayor of Baltimore, where I live, at least I have to give our local authorities credit for conducting terror and other disaster drills several times a year. If I am not mistaken, our local authorities have Sat phones after the lessons learned from 9/11.
3. Local officials should have dispatched all available police to the shelters of last resort. Given the known crime rate they should have known the potential for violence.
4. The governor should have declared an emergency, enacted marshal law with shoot to kill orders as necessary to keep order and dispatched the National Guard before the hurricane hit.
5. The Corps of Engineers said that the levies were in good or excellent condition but were only designed to withstand a CAT 3 – who was responsible for getting them up graded? I understand the Clinton administration cut funding to do just that. Why didn’t the local officials press this matter – did the Corps follow up?
6. FEMA was slow to respond after Andrew and that was a relatively small area of destruction in comparison. FEMA was supposed to have learned lessons from that disaster and improve but evidently didn’t.
7. Homeland Security was charged with providing assistance in a natural disaster as well as terror attacks. I feel this is misguided and an over stretch for this agency and only adds to the layers of bureaucracy. FEMA needs to be bulked up and have strong leadership and the ability to act before being formally asked. Protocol be damned.
8. Laura Bush (a woman I greatly admire) said in an interview that parents need to keep their children to school. That’s fine unless of course there are no schools to send them too. And Condlolisa Rice’s Manhattan escapades (another woman I normally greatly admire) in the midst of an on-going crises would seem to indicate a lack of understand by the administration of the gravity of the situation.
Yep there is blame a plenty to go around.
You may be able to convince the sheep at DU, but there aren't many hear buying into your mantra.
Think I'll go out and purchase another case of ammo this afternoon.
Some how I don't think they would have been sitting and watching TV? Which leads me to the suggestion that the NEWSIES should have been commandeered to provide real-time information and assessments as they were the only ones that seemed to be able to get the information out to the public.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Which raises some questions in my mind.
1. FEMA needs some of those drone flying thingys to overfly
an area and report back LIVE data to FEMA.
(Keeps the locals HONEST!).
2. Maybe it would be helpful to prepackage a kit consisting of an AM radio, batteries for AM radio, CLOTH Diapers, MRE's, bottles of water, Medical First Aid Kit, garbage bags for sanitation and waste, a couple of 5 or 10 gallon buckets for washing or whatever, and Large Plastic Signs saying "Need Help', 'Need Insulin', 'Need Heart Medicine', 'Need Water and Food', 'Need Gas for Generator', 'Elderly Needs Rescue' and anything else I forgot.
2a. Oh yea, ICE is a biggie also, it allows you to keep the stuff in your refrig or freezer editable or a day or 2 longer !!!
These would be dropped or prepositioned for people to pick up BEFORE the hurricane. They could also be dropped into neighborhoods via helicopter AFTER the hurricane/event.
3. I live in central Fla and I was lulled into complacency
after Charlie and Francis hit last year after going right by my house at least 20 miles from the eye. When the 3rd hurricane hit (I don't remember the name, sorry, (Ivan?)), We were without anything for 4 days.
Trust me, you do not want to be there. No Elect, No Phone, No AC, No water, No Computer, No TV, NO FAN !!, Temp was above 90 Degrees and no breeze blowing. It was Miserable !!!
At least we could go to the bathroom and flush with a gal or 2 of water !!
Don't even want to think what it would be inside the house with a toilet overflowing !!!
4. If you get into your car/truck/suv and go out to find some stuff you come back with 3 or 4 roofing nails in your tires and you get to play the slow leak game!!!
5. I contribute to the Red Cross and the Salvation Army,
but sad to say I never saw any of them in the 4 days I was in need of help !! I know that they do yoman's work, but they failed me in my hour of need, but I will keep contributing to them as I have no other option to support people in need. I made out OK and I know that there were more people in more need than I.
6. The only thing I had was an AM/FM radio.
All I could get was Tampa or Orlando on AM talking about the disaster in their local area.
FEMA needs to rebrodcast on all local AM/FM stations, where relief supplies are and how to get to them, city by city.
7. FEMA needa to sit down with Wal-Mart, Cosco, Mcdonalds, Lowes, Home Depot, Publix, and determine how to get relief supplies to those parking lots.
People know where these stores are, sorry, but they do not know where the First Baptist Church of xx is located.
8. Did I mention ICE and Pets??
8a. Lots of people will not evacuate because they are afraid that wherever they land will NOT accept pets, nuff said !!
9. I am a woosee and will not probably accept my own advice.
That's why we need this to happen on a FEDERAL level.
10. Been there, done that, have the T-Shirt, and still will NOT be prepared !!
(What part of LAZY do you not understand)
Excellent analysis.
>>I don't think there is anyone I trust anymore.<<
Amen. Government serves itself and it's cash cows first. They're not on our side.
Chertoff and Brown are lawyers. They were more concerned about legalisms and bureaucratic turf issues. Once the scope and magnitude of this disaster was known, the federal government should not have trucked any such obstacles to getting the job done, especially saving lives. You can go back and forth as to who should request what first, but ultimately the entire government, federal/state/local, is judged by results. Let the chips fall where they may. If Bush had done that, he would have been lionized by the American public despite a hostile MSM.
However, often local officals had no phone or radio communications with their personnel in the field. A communications breakdown. In that kind of case, FEMA should have looked to the Media for pictures of what conditions were really like. They didnt have to take the MSM's assessment of the situation but at least it gave them some clue as to what was occuring in the black hole called New Orleans. At the very least they should have been aware of what the media were calling trouble spots so when Brown or Cherfoff were on TV they wouldnt make such stupid comments as no one told us..we didnt know.
I think one of the problems is that they were expecting the normal chain-of-command thing to happen - that is, the lower levels request the higher levels for help, the higher levels authorize it, etc. In this case, the lower levels broke down, probably to an extent unprecedented in our recent history.
People say that FEMA and Homeland Security should have been watching TV for their information! Truly ridiculous - TV is full of rumors and instant reaction things that the government couldn't do anyway. Normally, agencies would rely on officials on the ground to give them the information. However, they clearly couldn't rely on that in NO, nor could they rely on NO officials to exercise their normal law enforcement or any other functions.
There's got to be a plan in place, worked out by Congress, for when the local authority breaks down, as it did in NO in particular and LA in general.
Chertoff is in Washington DC where the power is still on. Brown, who knows what planet he is on. The point is FEMA and the Department of HLS have huge buearacracies. They have at least one person that they can devote to watching TV. You can bet they have at least ten or twenty feeding press releases to the media from their DC headquarters. Radio communication and satellite phone from Washington DC is more reliable than local communications in New Orleans. All the more reason for someone outside the area to communicate what they see happening on TV. Looking at your other points, it seems they make the other posters point for him. Since the local officials had no reliable communications and FEMA officials were sitting outside the city waiting for a safe ride in, who are these boots on the ground? The police who had been dealing with looters and snipers for five days with little food or water themselves and little sleep. Seems like they have a little mroe on their hands than feeding intel to buearocrats.
Agreed. Strong leadership takes bold action and sometimes rules, protocol and paperwork need to be secondary concerns.
It just keeps getting better...or worse, depending on your perspective.
Thanks. It gives me serious concerns about our government. Local, state and federal to deal with a terror attack using WMD’s such as a nuclear or bio weapon.
I won't disagree with your concern, but it is easy to jump to conclusions of incompetence in this unprecedented situation. I am not prepared to say that all that could be done was not being done. In retrospect, could more have been done? Of course, had we known then what we know now much more would have been done. I suspect the mayor might even have used the school buses that now sit flooded not two miles from the Superdome.
I do understand that Gov. Blanco has YET to allow the national guard to be federalized. That is inexcusable.
"You're wrong."
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Well, at least, my opinion differs somewhat from yours. :)
The Russian adage ("Between 'Should Be' and 'Is' many pairs of shoes are worn out.") has a lot of truth to it. Another consideration is "what the meaning of "is" is".
Staff have jobs to do as well...and while I also think all information that is accessible from the scene should be utilitized, I don't know that time would be well spent watching news coverage 24/7. Accuracy of information is an important consideration when making decisions about how to best co-ordinate and implement actions on that large of a scale. Plans for big events (even imperfect ones) are in place for a reason. Total chaos is likely to ensue without them, as was demonstrated by the mayor of NO and the governor of LA. Spontaneous responses on a smaller,as well as a larger scale require some sort of planning as demonstrated by the brave young man who "commandeered" a school bus, gathered up 70 or so people and drove them out of NO to Houston. The larger the scale the greater the complexity of the considerations.
This administration has done, and is doing, a good job in the face of the obstacles they are having to overcome to get it on track. I'm hoping the sickening way this LA disaster has been politicized is not a harbinger of things to come, but the past is prologue, as they say, and Dems do run LA - Dems who are being "advised" by Clinton folks. I'm just cynical enough to think that not all of what has occurred in LA can be blamed on incompetence. There is the CYA factor, but I'm expecting a lot of pretenses and appearances of co-operation while doing everything within their ability to obstruct and continue to blame the president as the long road to recovery and rebuilding begins. But, just like everybody else, I could be wrong. :)
I really hope I am wrong about the politicization and obstruction, but an adage I've come to associate with the Left is that "the end justifies the means", when it comes to regaining control of power, and no matter the damage or destruction in its wake.
Where is your proof for this. Ive seen one picture of buses. Assuming you could squeeze 40 people on each bus for a 12 hour trip it would take 2500 fully fueled buses and drivers to take 100,000 out. By all reports there were some 250,000 people left behind. That would require more than 6000 buses and drivers assuming you get the people to the busses and force them to get on board. In addition, you are talking about putting another 6000 large vehicles on highways that were already crawling due to heavy auto traffic trying to escape.
I don't know your definitions of higher and lower levels. I suspect that the lawyers took over once the Feds realized that the State and local authorities were incompetent. Instead of recommending bold action, they drafted an agreement and had Bush negotiate with Blanco. This is what caused the delays and inaction.
People say that FEMA and Homeland Security should have been watching TV for their information! Truly ridiculous - TV is full of rumors and instant reaction things that the government couldn't do anyway
True up to a point. Once there were firsthand reports on TV about the chaos at the Superdome and Convention center, something should have been done. The public sees what is happening on their TV screens and can't understand why the authorities don't do something. Any head of a government agency must be aware of what is going on in the press, including TV. For self-defense at least.
There's got to be a plan in place, worked out by Congress, for when the local authority breaks down, as it did in NO in particular and LA in general.
Plans are fine, but commonsense and flexibility must hold sway. As they say, the first casualty in war is the battle plan. Once contact is made, you need to adjust.
Are you offering them your home? How about emptying out the college there. That is one of the biggest leftist universities in the Midwest. Wouldnt hurt the country at all if it were shut down for a few years to make room for evacuees.
Information gleaned from observing the scene is incomplete and subject to misinterpretation (for example, the shooting incident yesterday). If they observe something, they should check with their government sources to verify it.
That is why it would not be responsible for Chertoff to let CNN be his sitrep consultant.
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Yes, as iThinkBig quoted from President Reagan, "trust but verify".
I hope at least as many prayers for wisdom and guidance are going up as there is second guessing and criticism.
Ok, look at it this way. You're Chertoff. You know that the Louisiana State and Municipal govt's are outright lying and covering their asses. You know that all your subordinates are busting their asses trying to move every possible asset at your command into effective action. (Knowing that in any group of people that size there will be screwups, honest and stupid.) Unlike the LA elected leadership, you can't and won't get away with whining and complaining and bursting into tears to avoid uncomfortable questions.
Now, as part of your job, you have to stand in front of some overpaid, self-aggrandizing, totally useless member of the MainStreamMedia who you KNOW GOING IN has an agenda to make you look as bad as possible. You tell me, how are you going to make yourself look good?
Too many forget about other forms of transportation. The trains....should have been used prior to the storm, no delays no being stuck in traffic. Just send them out of the path and could have made several trips, just as the buses could have been utilized. But elect a DUmocrat....take your chances if you choose.
Between Travis Mcgee, Paleo Conservative, myself and a few others, we are hitting any thread several times with those pictures in different montages.
Also, kcvl, backhoe, cindy, ernest at the beach and other great indexers on FR have been pinged with the picture's and Travis's data re the Planned Evacuation.
Aye. Apparently the White House staff spent no small amount of time Friday & Saturday before the storm hit dithering about technical legalities and stupid jurisdictional issues. Sure, things improved once the President got back to Washington, but that was, what, Tuesday? Damage had already been done.
SW
A bit like running a battle via CBS.
The interview Doug from Upland and I were referring to was held in Mississippi, where Chertoff has been since Tuesday night. (remember, seawall broke Tuesday morning) And yes, he has better comm than the rest of the storm damaged area at that time. The point he was making was by Thursday morning, when we started seeing reports from the Convention Center , as opposed to the Superdome, was when he received reports on the problem, and began to deal with it. (remember, to the background of people sniping at helos, LA Govt. still not releasing authority to various National Guard groups, LA and other States, which by law are the only troups under US Law that are permitted to perform Law Enforcement within the Continental US. Posse Comutatus, remember?)
Looking at your other points, it seems they make the other posters point for him. Since the local officials had no reliable communications and FEMA officials were sitting outside the city waiting for a safe ride in, who are these boots on the ground? The police who had been dealing with looters and snipers for five days with little food or water themselves and little sleep. Seems like they have a little mroe on their hands than feeding intel to buearocrats.
Again, remember; FEMA money had been going into that state for the last 3/4 years to be spent to upgrade that communications equipment, first responders, and emergency planning. Chertoff and the Federal govt expected that to have been done. Now, with the LA Political structure having been caught with their pants down, and probably sweating the discovery that the money is not where it was supposed to be, cooperation from them is probably not going to be forthcoming. Why do you suppose every Democratic Party Politician in LA is dancing and spinning so hard and so fast? The Mayor, Governor, and Senator are sweeping madly at the tide they know is coming their way, and enlisting every Democratic Party POL they have anything on to join in. In the end, all the tide-sweeping will be as effective as you can imagine. Not So?
CNN first reported what was going on at the convention center, Thursday morning. Brown saw the coverage of what was going on at the convention center, Thursday morning.
What's the problem?
Maybe we are OK with this.
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