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Islamic case against Islamic radicalism
The Washington Times ^ | September 11, 2005 | MUSTAFA AKYOL

Posted on 09/12/2005 8:59:33 AM PDT by TBP

It is thus not surprising to see former Marxists join the ranks of Islamic radicals

This is a deviation from Islam proper. Radicals see Islam as a force to lead "enslaved" nations against "ruling" ones. The Koran, however, presents Islam as a way to lead all humans to God's path.

(Excerpt) Read more at washtimes.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Editorial; Foreign Affairs; Miscellaneous; News/Current Events; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: 4thanniversary; 911; alqaeda; fourthanniversary; gwot; iran; iraq; islam; jihad; terrorism; terrorists
Very interesting reading. It's interesting seeing some common sense coming from the Muslim world.
1 posted on 09/12/2005 8:59:38 AM PDT by TBP
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To: TBP
Yeah, and islam is much closer to Nazism than Marxism...
2 posted on 09/12/2005 9:06:19 AM PDT by 2banana (My common ground with terrorists - They want to die for Islam, and we want to kill them.)
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To: TBP

"The Koran, however, presents Islam as a way to lead all humans to God's path."

- LOL...this guy has obviously never read the Koran or Hadith, or real history one of the thousand pagan arab gods called Allah.

Mohammed was an evil despicable man-animal, Allah is a figment of some arabs immagination, and the Koran is a terrorist manual.


3 posted on 09/12/2005 9:13:44 AM PDT by Frenetic
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To: 2banana
...islam is much closer to Nazism than Marxism...

Very true!

But here's the levity in the WashTimes article...

Yet times have changed. We Muslims don't ride camels anymore. We drive cars. Similarly, we can't apply a medieval political doctrine to the 21st century.

I wonder if it dawned on the speaker to consider where those cars come from. If the world were living under Islam, we would all be riding camels.

4 posted on 09/12/2005 9:18:49 AM PDT by Dark Skies ("The only way to find yourself is in the fires of sorrow." -- Oswald Chambers)
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To: Frenetic
this guy has obviously never read the Koran or Hadith

Despite the fact that he's a Muslim, which I think we can safely assume you are not.

5 posted on 09/12/2005 9:31:50 AM PDT by TBP
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To: 2banana
islam is much closer to Nazism than Marxism...

Naziism and Communism are very close to each other, two branches of the same tree.

6 posted on 09/12/2005 9:32:28 AM PDT by TBP
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To: TBP; armymarinedad

Helpful bump for you


7 posted on 09/12/2005 9:35:51 AM PDT by armymarinemom (My sons freed Iraqi and Afghanistan Honor Roll students.)
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To: TBP

"Despite the fact that he's a Muslim, which I think we can safely assume you are not."

- What gave away? </sarc>


8 posted on 09/12/2005 9:45:04 AM PDT by Frenetic
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To: Frenetic; 2banana
The authors who write these articles just pretend this stuff isn't in there while the dupes in the West nod and carry on without any clue. Email this to your family, friends and associates as most of them probably have no idea where to look to find it.

The Koran / The Hadith on Jews, Christians, Christianity, Christ, the Gospel, The Deity of Christ, the Holy Trinity, the Bible (the Book) and Infidels

http://www.hti.umich.edu/k/koran/

"The Women" [4.89] They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back,
then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.

[3.85] "And whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers."

[4.91] You will find others who desire that they should be safe from you and secure from their own people; as often as they are sent back to the mischief they get thrown into it headlong; therefore if they do not withdraw from you, and (do not) offer you peace and restrain their hands,
then seize them and kill them wherever you find them; and against these We have given.you a clear authority.

[5.51] O you who believe!
do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.

The Cattle - [6.146] And to those who were Jews We made unlawful every animal having claws, and of oxen and sheep We made unlawful to them the fat of both, except such as was on their backs or the entrails or what was mixed with bones: this was a punishment We gave them on account of their rebellion, and We are surely Truthful.

[9.5] So when the sacred months have passed away,
then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

The Congregation [62.6] Say: O you who are Jews, if you think that you are the favorites of Allah to the exclusion of other people, then invoke death If you are truthful. (PLEASE COMMIT SUICIDE)

The Cow - [2.111] And they say: None shall enter the garden (or paradise) except he who is a Jew or a Christian. These are their vain desires. Say: Bring your proof if you are truthful.

The Dinner Table - The Dinner Table [5.14] And with those who say, We are Christians, We made a covenant, but they neglected a portion of what they were reminded of, therefore We excited among them enmity and hatred to the day of resurrection; and Allah will inform them of what they did.

[5.72] Certainly they disbelieve who say: Surely Allah, He is the Messiah, son of Marium; and the Messiah said: O Children of Israel! serve Allah, my Lord and your Lord. Surely whoever associates (others) with Allah, then Allah has forbidden to him the garden, and his abode is the fire; and there shall be no helpers for the unjust.

Quran tells Muslims to kill the disbelievers wherever they find them (Q. 2:191), to murder them and treat them harshly (Q. 9:123), slay them (Q. 9: 5), fight with them, (Q. 8: 65 ) even if they are Christians and Jews, humiliate them and impose on them a penalty tax (Q. 9: 29). Quran takes away the freedom of belief from all humanity and tell clearly that no other religion except Islam is accepted (Q. 3: 85). It relegates those who disbelieve in Quran to hell (Q. 5: 11), calls them najis (filthy, untouchable, impure) (Q. 9: 28). It orders its followers to fight the unbelievers until no other religion except Islam is left (Q. 2: 193).

"Fight those who do not profess the true faith [ISLAM], till they pay the jiziya with the hand of humility." - Koran 9: 29

"....
I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers, Smite ye above their necks [CUT OFF THEIR HEADS], and smite all their finger tips of them [CUT OFF THEIR FINGERS]." - Koran 8:12

"
Prophet, make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites, and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home: an evil fate." - Koran 9: 73

"
When you meet the unbelievers in the Jihad strike off their heads [CUT OFF THEIR HEADS] and, when you have laid them low, bind your captives firmly." - Koran 47:4

"The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and his messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet and alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom...." - Koran 5: 33-34

" Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last day, nor hold the forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and his messenger, nor acknowledge the Religion of Truth from among the People of the Book, until they pay the Jiziyah with willing submission. And feel themselves subdued." - Koran 9: 29

"....the People of the Book and the pagans shall burn for ever in the fire of Hell. They are the vilest of all creatures." - Koran 98: 1-8

"Garments of fire have been prepared for the unbelievers. Scalding water shall be poured upon their heads, melting their skins and that which is in their bellies. They shall be lashed rods of iron. Whenever, in their anguish, they try to escape from Hell, back they shall be dragged, and will be told: 'Taste the torment of the Conflagration!'" - Koran 22: 19-22, 23

"And burn ye him in the blazing fire. Further, make him march in a chain, whereof the length is seventy cubits. This was he that would not believe in allah Most high and would not encourage the feeding of the indignant. So no friend hath he here this day. Nor hath he any food except the corruption from the washing of wounds. " - Koran 31-37

"The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and his messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be to be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet and genitals cut off
, or to be expelled out of the land. Such will be their humiliation in the world, and in the next world they will face an awful horror." - Koran, 5:33-34)

"In order that Allah may separate the pure from the impure, put all the impure ones [all non-Muslims] one on top of another in a heap and cast them into hell. They will have been the ones to have lost." - Koran, 8:37

According to the New Testament of the Bible, the God of Israel has a Son - Jesus Christ of Nazareth; but Allah has no son according to the Koran

Therefore the Biblical New Testament Christian God of Israel is not Allah

"They say: Allah has taken a Son (to Himself)! Glory be to Him: he is the Self-sufficient: his is what is in the heavens and what is in the Earth; you have no authority for this; do you say against Allah what you do not know? Say: Those who forge a lie against Allah shall not be successful." - Koran 10:68-69 [SAYS JESUS IS NOT THE SON OF GOD AND WHOEVER SAYS SO IS A LIAR]

"....the Christians call 'Christ the Son Of God'. That is a saying from their mouth; (In this) they but intimate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth." - Koran 9: 30

The Women - [4.171] O followers of the Book! do not exceed the limits in your religion, and do not speak (lies) against Allah, but (speak) the truth; the Messiah, Isa son of Marium is only an apostle of Allah and his Word which he communicated to Marium and a spirit from Him; believe therefore in Allah and his apostles, and say not, Three. Desist, it is better for you; Allah is only one god; far be It from his glory that he should have a son, whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is His, and Allah is sufficient for a Protector. (CLEARLY STATES THAT JESUS IS **NOT** THE SON OF GOD)

The Immunity - Denial of Deity of Christ and His Messiahship - [9.30] And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away! (MAY ALLAH DESTROY JEWS AND CHRISTIANS)

Say: "Praise be to Allah Who begets no son and has no partner in (His) dominion: nor (needs) he any to protect him from humiliation: Yea magnify him for his greatness and glory!" - Koran 17: 111

Further that he may warn those (also) who say "Allah hath begotten a son": - Koran 18: 4

It is not befitting to (the majesty of) Allah that he should beget a son. Glory be to Him! When he determines a matter he only says to it "Be" and it is. - Koran 19: 35

They say: "(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten a son!" Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous! - Koran 19: 88-89

For it is not consonant with the majesty of (Allah) Most Gracious that he should beget a son. - Koran 19: 92

No son did Allah beget nor is there any god along with Him: (if there were many gods) behold each god would have taken away what he had created and some would have lorded it over others! Glory to Allah (he is free) from the (sort of) things they attribute to Him! - Koran 23: 91

he begetteth not nor is he begotten; - Koran 112: 3


Hadith Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 52, Number 176:
Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar:

Allah's Apostle said, "You (i.e. Muslims) will fight with the Jews till some of them will hide behind stones. The stones will (betray them) saying, 'O 'Abdullah (i.e. slave of Allah)! There is a Jew hiding behind me; so kill him.' "

Hadith Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 52, Number 177:
Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle said, "The (Final) Hour (last human battle on Earth) will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."


Hadith Sahih Bukhari Volume 2, Book 26, Number 595:
Narrated 'Aisha:

(the mother of the faithful believers) I said, "O Allah's Apostle! We consider Jihad as the best deed." The Prophet said, "The best Jihad (for women) is Hajj Mabrur. "

Hadith Sahih Bukhari Volume 2, Book 26, Number 594:
Narrated Abu Huraira:

The Prophet was asked, "Which is the best deed?" He said, "To believe in Allah and His Apostle." He was then asked, "Which is the next (in goodness)?" He said, "To participate in Jihad in Allah's Cause." He was then asked, "Which is the next?" He said, "To perform Hajj-Mabrur. "


Hadith Sahih Bukhari [4:56:791] Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar: I heard Allah's Apostle saying, "The Jews will fight with you, and you will be given victory over them so that a stone will say, 'O Muslim! There is a Jew behind me; kill him!' "

Hadith Sahih Muslim [41:6981] Ibn 'Umar reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: You will fight against the Jews and you will kill them until even a stone would say: Come here, Muslim, there is a Jew (hiding himself behind me); kill him.”

Hadith Sahih Muslim [41:6982] Ubaidullah has reported this hadith with this chain of transmitters (and the Words are): "There is a Jew behind me."

Hadith Sahih Muslim [41:6983] Abdullah b. 'Umar reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: ”You and the Jews would fight against one another until a stone would say: Muslim, here is a Jew behind me; come and kill him.”

Hadith Sahih Muslim [41:6984] Abdullah b. 'Umar reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: ”The Jews will fight against you and you will gain victory over them until the stone would say: Muslim, here is a Jew behind me; kill him.”

Hadith Sahih Muslim [41:6985] Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: ”The last hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him; but the tree Gharqad would not say, for it is the tree of the Jews.”
9 posted on 09/12/2005 9:57:38 AM PDT by F15Eagle (Epistle of James 2:5-6, 12-18, 20, 22, 24)
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To: Frenetic

Neither am I, BTW, but as this article shows, there are different interpretations of the Koran and of Muslim teachings among the Muslims themselves, just as there are many interpretations of the Bible and of Christian doctrine in the Christian world.


10 posted on 09/12/2005 9:59:25 AM PDT by TBP
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To: TBP

"but as this article shows, there are different interpretations of the Koran"

- So what? I'm sure there are different interpretations of the Mein Kempf, should we give that a pass as well?

Why would the interpretation of a manual (Koran & Hadith) chronicling the life of a despicable evil tyrant and a psychopath named Mohammed be relevant?

No matter how you interpret the New Testament, you cannot find anywhere where Jesus called for the intolerance, terror, death, destruction, humiliation and domination over people who didn't believe in him (as the Koran and Hadith do).



11 posted on 09/12/2005 10:13:49 AM PDT by Frenetic
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To: TBP

I'd amplify Lenin's famous pamphlet title "Imperialism, the Final Stage of Capitalism" into a contemporary morphing thus: "Islam, the Final Stage of Bolshevism". Keep in mind that ALL current Islamic revolutionary cadres were outgrowths of WWII era nazi geopolitics in the Mid East region. The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem was a raving nazi anti-semite kept under house arrest by the British throughout the war and later Egyptian President, Anwar Sedat, was part of a nazi Egyptian Army officers revetment jailed in Cairo for the duration of that war.

When we think of the underground Odessa nazi diaspora operation, we think of the "Boys From Brazil" being clandestinely relocated throughout South America, when a substantial portion of the nazi upper echelon exodus ended up tucked away in various Arab/Mideast Regimes. Their conversion upon the anti-semitism highway from nazi to marxist was pretty much effortless.

The linkup to western bolshevik factions and their parasite infestation of the left, MSM, academia, environmentalism, et al, was equally effortless. But with the collapse of the Soviet Empire, we see them in a group-tetanus white knuckled death grip clutching their ideological predispositions at the extreme and zany expense of sanity, intellectual honesty, logical consistency, moral ethics, and the ability to cognitively integrate an entirely new marx-is-dead game board.

Their current aggressive anti-Christian, anti-heterosexuality, anti-capitalism tactics are empty muscle flexing in an attempt at maintaining some sort of initiative and momentum as their world is shoveled into the dustbin of history. For all their media histrionics and apoplexia, their cadres percieve through a glass darkly the eventual total hegemony of productive, wealth distributive capitalism, and it just makes them crazier, like any cult apparat.

Watching them Jim Jones themselves into a cartoon gotterdammerung is the new entertainment.

Walter

/////////////////////////////////////////
walter alter artist - wiseguy - savant
____________________________
PORTFOLIO: http://infojockey.tripod.com/
PSYOPS: www.fortunecity.com/victorian/mill/1189


12 posted on 09/12/2005 10:21:26 AM PDT by Yollopoliuhqui (Islam- the Final Stage of Bolshevism)
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To: TBP

I don't think Islam has the tools for modern civilized life. Even its poor simulacrum of justice excludes most of humanity, including half their own.


13 posted on 09/12/2005 10:49:03 AM PDT by thoughtomator (Gentlemen may cry, "Peace! Peace!" -- but there is no peace. - Patrick Henry)
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To: 2banana
"Yeah, and islam is much closer to Nazism than Marxism..."

Who cares? All three enslave and kill people. They are all ideologies of death.
14 posted on 09/12/2005 12:06:41 PM PDT by monday
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To: TBP
I think such "common sense" is a subterfuge to lull the West back to sleep or to give it false hope that there really are peaceful Muslims. Don't believe it for a second.

Recorded history back to the "Prophet" belies this. Here's a short quotation from Madden's "The Real History of the Crusades" published in Crisis Magazine, April 1, 2002:

So what is the truth about the Crusades? Scholars are still working some of that out. But much can already be said with certainty. For starters, the Crusades to the East were in every way defensive wars. They were a direct response to Muslim aggression—an attempt to turn back or defend against Muslim conquests of Christian lands.

Christians in the eleventh century were not paranoid fanatics. Muslims really were gunning for them. While Muslims can be peaceful, Islam was born in war and grew the same way. From the time of Mohammed, the means of Muslim expansion was always the sword. Muslim thought divides the world into two spheres, the Abode of Islam and the Abode of War. Christianity—and for that matter any other non-Muslim religion—has no abode. Christians and Jews can be tolerated within a Muslim state under Muslim rule. But, in traditional Islam, Christian and Jewish states must be destroyed and their lands conquered. When Mohammed was waging war against Mecca in the seventh century, Christianity was the dominant religion of power and wealth. As the faith of the Roman Empire, it spanned the entire Mediterranean, including the Middle East, where it was born. The Christian world, therefore, was a prime target for the earliest caliphs, and it would remain so for Muslim leaders for the next thousand years.

With enormous energy, the warriors of Islam struck out against the Christians shortly after Mohammed’s death. They were extremely successful. Palestine, Syria, and Egypt—once the most heavily Christian areas in the world—quickly succumbed. By the eighth century, Muslim armies had conquered all of Christian North Africa and Spain. In the eleventh century, the Seljuk Turks conquered Asia Minor (modern Turkey), which had been Christian since the time of St. Paul. The old Roman Empire, known to modern historians as the Byzantine Empire, was reduced to little more than Greece. In desperation, the emperor in Constantinople sent word to the Christians of western Europe asking them to aid their brothers and sisters in the East.

That is what gave birth to the Crusades.


15 posted on 09/12/2005 7:15:21 PM PDT by ProtectOurFreedom
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To: F15Eagle

Muslim scholar Fareed Zakaria writes: "The historian Paul Johnson has argued that Islam is intrinsically an intolerant and violent religion. Other scholars have disagreed, pointing out that Islam condemns the slaughter of innocents and prohibits suicide. Nothing will be solved by searching for 'true Islam' or quoting the Qur'an. The Qur'an is a vast, vague book, filled with poetry and contradictions (much like the Bible). You can find in it condemnations of war and incitements to struggle, beautiful expressions of tolerance and stern pictures against unbelievers. Quotations from it usually tell us more about the person who selected the passages than about Islam. Every religion is compatible with the best and the worst of humankind. Through its long history, Christianity has supported inquisitions and anti-Semitism, but also human rights and social welfare."


16 posted on 09/13/2005 6:44:47 AM PDT by TBP
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To: F15Eagle

Muhammad urged his followers to meet opposition with patience and persuasion. Scholars refer to these texts of the Koran as "verses of forgiveness and pardon." For example, the Koran says: "Invite (all) to the way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious: for thy Lord knoweth best, who have strayed from His path, and who receive guidance. (16:125)." "Nor can goodness and evil be equal. Repel (evil) with what is better (41:34)."

That sounds similar to Christian teaching in many ways.


17 posted on 09/13/2005 6:56:12 AM PDT by TBP
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To: Frenetic
"The Women" [4.89] They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.

There is no question that Christians have used violence, torture, and military crusades to destroy "infidels" and "heretics."

Read what Thomas Aquinas, the most influential Catholic theologian, teaches in his Summa Theologica about the extermination of the "heretics." He wrote: "With regard to heretics two points must be observed: one, on their own side, the other, on the side of the church. On their own side there is a sin, whereby they deserve not only to be separated from the Church by excommunication, but also to be severed from the world by death. For it is a much graver matter to corrupt the faith which quickens the soul, than to forge money, which supports the temporal life. Wherefore, if forger of money and other evildoers are forthwith condemned to death by the secular authority, much more reason is there for heretics, as soon as they are convicted of heresy, to be not only excommunicated but even put to death" (Question 11, Article 3).

[3.85] "And whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers."

"Go therefore and make disciples of all nations" (Matt 28:19).

Jesus said, "Preach the gospel to every creature" (Mark 16:15).

Ps. 9:17: "The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God."

[4.91] You will find others who desire that they should be safe from you and secure from their own people; as often as they are sent back to the mischief they get thrown into it headlong; therefore if they do not withdraw from you, and (do not) offer you peace and restrain their hands, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them; and against these We have given.you a clear authority.

Again: There is no question that Christians have used violence, torture, and military crusades to destroy "infidels" and "heretics."

Ps. 55:15: "Let death seize upon them, and let them go down quick into Sheol"

[9.5] So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

Prov. 1: 12: "Let us swallow them up alive as the grave."

Ps. 55:15: "Let death seize upon them, and let them go down quick into Sheol."

I Samuel 2: 6: "The Lord killeth, and maketh alive: he bringeth down to the grave, and bringeth up." I Kings 2: 6-9: "Do therefore according to thy wisdom, and let not his hoar head go down to the grave in peace. Now therefore hold him not guiltless: for thou art a wise man, and knowest what thou oughtest to do unto him; but his hoar head bring thou down to the grave with blood." Job 7: 9: "As the cloud is consumed and vanisheth away: so he that goeth down to the grave shall come up no more." Job 14: 13: "Oh that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me."

During the Middle Ages the Catholic Church organized crusades to exterminate Muslims, Jews, and so-called "heretics." The Catholic church terrorized people in Western Europe, especially through the inquisition.

In Sura 73:10,11 Muhammad urges his followers to be patient toward those who deny the truth: "And have patience with what they say, and leave them with noble (dignity). And leave me (alone to deal with) those in possession of the good things of life, who (yet) deny the truth, and bear with them for a little while."

In Sura 52:45,47,48 the prophet admonishes to leave the unbelievers alone and to wait patiently for the Lord to punish them: "So leave them alone until they encounter that day of theirs, wherein they shall (perforce) swoon (with terror) ... And verily, for those who do wrong, there is another punishment besides this... Now await in patience the command of thy Lord, for verily thou art in Our eyes."

The Cow - [2.111] And they say: None shall enter the garden (or paradise) except he who is a Jew or a Christian. These are their vain desires. Say: Bring your proof if you are truthful.

And is this not an accurate description of Judeo-Christian theology? [5.72] Certainly they disbelieve who say: Surely Allah, He is the Messiah, son of Marium; and the Messiah said: O Children of Israel! serve Allah, my Lord and your Lord. Surely whoever associates (others) with Allah, then Allah has forbidden to him the garden, and his abode is the fire; and there shall be no helpers for the unjust. Quran tells Muslims to kill the disbelievers wherever they find them (Q. 2:191), to murder them and treat them harshly (Q. 9:123), slay them (Q. 9: 5), fight with them, (Q. 8: 65 ) even if they are Christians and Jews, humiliate them and impose on them a penalty tax (Q. 9: 29). Quran takes away the freedom of belief from all humanity and tell clearly that no other religion except Islam is accepted (Q. 3: 85). It relegates those who disbelieve in Quran to hell (Q. 5: 11), calls them najis (filthy, untouchable, impure) (Q. 9: 28). It orders its followers to fight the unbelievers until no other religion except Islam is left (Q. 2: 193).

"Fight those who do not profess the true faith [ISLAM], till they pay the jiziya with the hand of humility." - Koran 9: 29

".... I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers, Smite ye above their necks [CUT OFF THEIR HEADS], and smite all their finger tips of them [CUT OFF THEIR FINGERS]." - Koran 8:12

"Prophet, make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites, and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home: an evil fate." - Koran 9: 73

"When you meet the unbelievers in the Jihad strike off their heads [CUT OFF THEIR HEADS] and, when you have laid them low, bind your captives firmly." - Koran 47:4

"The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and his messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet and alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom...." - Koran 5: 33-34

The Bible reveals that the ‘LORD’ solves conflicts time and again through exerting power and control in violent ways. Faced with the problem of evil he attempted to wash the world clean of wickedness by destroying “all living beings on earth—human beings, animals and birds.” Faced with the conflict of a promise land occupied by whole nations of people his solution was to commit genocide, commanding the Israelites to “put them all to death.” Faced with the embarassment of his own people worshipping idols, he reacted by choosing murder to avenge the transgression, commanding men to take swords and “kill your brothers and friends and neighbors.” Faced with the problem of his chosen people being oppressed by Babylon, he declared: “It’s all-out war in Babylon,” his reaction to conflict throughout the Bible is that of a heavy-handed thug with no more intelligence than the primitive men who wrote the stories. He demanded “total war against people, leaders, and the wise!” God solves conflict by demanding killing, looting and envirnonmental terrorism: “War to the death on her boasting pretenders, fools one and all! War to the death on her soldiers, cowards to a man! War to the death on her hired killers, gutless wonders! War to the death on her banks–looted! War to the death on her water supply–drained dry!’”

Now read (Luke 22:36-37) Where Jesus commands people to take arms for a coming conflict. (John 2:15) Jesus uses a whip to physically drive people out of the temple.

Matthew 10:34 "I came not to send peace but a sword"

I Samuel 2: 6: "The Lord killeth, and maketh alive: he bringeth down to the grave, and bringeth up." I Kings 2: 6-9: "Do therefore according to thy wisdom, and let not his hoar head go down to the grave in peace. Now therefore hold him not guiltless: for thou art a wise man, and knowest what thou oughtest to do unto him; but his hoar head bring thou down to the grave with blood." Job 7: 9: "As the cloud is consumed and vanisheth away: so he that goeth down to the grave shall come up no more." Job 14: 13: "Oh that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me."

What happens to a society that praises a God that:

• is pleased by a man driving a spear completely through a man and into a women’s stomach
• mandates a victim of rape must marry her rapist
• mandates a women is to be stoned to death or burned to death as punishment
• mandates chopping off a womens hand for helping defend her husband in a fight
• orders the killing of brothers, friends and neighbors
• Gives a man’s wives to another man to have sex with for all to see
• kills everything that breathed in the world save 1 family and a boat load of animals
• commands the daily killing and gutting and burning of animals for all time to com
• condones the violent, insulting, dehumanizing treatment of people through slavery
• gives us the doctrines of hell and forgiveness of sin that says that the the most caring, loving women who ever graced the earth but failed to believe in the deity of Christ will be tortured forever and ever and ever… but the mass murderer who raped and strangled ten thousand little girls his whole life and comes to “believe” in Jesus while on death row spends eternity in heaven.

"Garments of fire have been prepared for the unbelievers. Scalding water shall be poured upon their heads, melting their skins and that which is in their bellies. They shall be lashed rods of iron. Whenever, in their anguish, they try to escape from Hell, back they shall be dragged, and will be told: 'Taste the torment of the Conflagration!'" - Koran 22: 19-22, 23

"In order that Allah may separate the pure from the impure, put all the impure ones [all non-Muslims] one on top of another in a heap and cast them into hell. They will have been the ones to have lost." - Koran, 8:37

Ah, the fires of eternal damnation -- familiar to any Christian, I suspect.

But unless we also bear good fruit, we may be discarded and thrown into the fire. [Matthew 7;15-7, 19].

God created mankind perfect, without sin, in God's image and likeness.

According to the New Testament of the Bible, the God of Israel has a Son - Jesus Christ of Nazareth; but Allah has no son according to the Koran

Therefore the Biblical New Testament Christian God of Israel is not Allah

"They say: Allah has taken a Son (to Himself)! Glory be to Him: he is the Self-sufficient: his is what is in the heavens and what is in the Earth; you have no authority for this; do you say against Allah what you do not know? Say: Those who forge a lie against Allah shall not be successful." - Koran 10:68-69 [SAYS JESUS IS NOT THE SON OF GOD AND WHOEVER SAYS SO IS A LIAR]

"....the Christians call 'Christ the Son Of God'. That is a saying from their mouth; (In this) they but intimate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth." - Koran 9: 30

Which is a theological disagreement having nothing to do with whether Islam is a religion of peace or of violence, or both. These quotes are essentially irrelevant to the argument.

John 14:12 -- "The things that I have done, ye also shall do and greater than these shall ye do."

When Pilate askes Jesus if he is the Messiah, he says "That's what they say." Notice that he says "they" say so, not making the claim himself.

Jesus. "Everything is possible for him who believes." [Mark 9;23]

"My father if greater than I." (John 14:28) Also see Matthew 24:26 Read one way at least, it reads as if Jesus is denouncing the possibility of him being the Messiah in those three verses.

Matthew 15:24 Jesus said, "I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of lsrael,". This would of course mean that he is here only to save the Jews. The scriptures repeatedly back up this notion that Christ is savior to the Jews and not the gentiles (see Romans 16:17, Revelations 14:3-4 & John 10).

In light of this, how is it that Christianity, which has a holy scripture that talks abotu violence as well as peaceful conversion, is a religion of love, but Islam, which has a holy scripture that talks about violence as well as peaceful conversion, is a religon of hatred, terror, and violence?

I guess it's all in your come-from. Whatever framework you come from as you red the material will determine what you think it means.

18 posted on 09/13/2005 9:25:42 AM PDT by TBP
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To: Frenetic
"The Women" [4.89] They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.

There is no question that Christians have used violence, torture, and military crusades to destroy "infidels" and "heretics."

Read what Thomas Aquinas, the most influential Catholic theologian, teaches in his Summa Theologica about the extermination of the "heretics." He wrote: "With regard to heretics two points must be observed: one, on their own side, the other, on the side of the church. On their own side there is a sin, whereby they deserve not only to be separated from the Church by excommunication, but also to be severed from the world by death. For it is a much graver matter to corrupt the faith which quickens the soul, than to forge money, which supports the temporal life. Wherefore, if forger of money and other evildoers are forthwith condemned to death by the secular authority, much more reason is there for heretics, as soon as they are convicted of heresy, to be not only excommunicated but even put to death" (Question 11, Article 3).

[3.85] "And whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers."

"Go therefore and make disciples of all nations" (Matt 28:19).

Jesus said, "Preach the gospel to every creature" (Mark 16:15).

Ps. 9:17: "The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God."

[4.91] You will find others who desire that they should be safe from you and secure from their own people; as often as they are sent back to the mischief they get thrown into it headlong; therefore if they do not withdraw from you, and (do not) offer you peace and restrain their hands, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them; and against these We have given.you a clear authority.

Again: There is no question that Christians have used violence, torture, and military crusades to destroy "infidels" and "heretics."

Ps. 55:15: "Let death seize upon them, and let them go down quick into Sheol"

[9.5] So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

Prov. 1: 12: "Let us swallow them up alive as the grave."

Ps. 55:15: "Let death seize upon them, and let them go down quick into Sheol."

I Samuel 2: 6: "The Lord killeth, and maketh alive: he bringeth down to the grave, and bringeth up." I Kings 2: 6-9: "Do therefore according to thy wisdom, and let not his hoar head go down to the grave in peace. Now therefore hold him not guiltless: for thou art a wise man, and knowest what thou oughtest to do unto him; but his hoar head bring thou down to the grave with blood." Job 7: 9: "As the cloud is consumed and vanisheth away: so he that goeth down to the grave shall come up no more." Job 14: 13: "Oh that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me."

During the Middle Ages the Catholic Church organized crusades to exterminate Muslims, Jews, and so-called "heretics." The Catholic church terrorized people in Western Europe, especially through the inquisition.

In Sura 73:10,11 Muhammad urges his followers to be patient toward those who deny the truth: "And have patience with what they say, and leave them with noble (dignity). And leave me (alone to deal with) those in possession of the good things of life, who (yet) deny the truth, and bear with them for a little while."

In Sura 52:45,47,48 the prophet admonishes to leave the unbelievers alone and to wait patiently for the Lord to punish them: "So leave them alone until they encounter that day of theirs, wherein they shall (perforce) swoon (with terror) ... And verily, for those who do wrong, there is another punishment besides this... Now await in patience the command of thy Lord, for verily thou art in Our eyes."

The Cow - [2.111] And they say: None shall enter the garden (or paradise) except he who is a Jew or a Christian. These are their vain desires. Say: Bring your proof if you are truthful.

And is this not an accurate description of Judeo-Christian theology? [5.72] Certainly they disbelieve who say: Surely Allah, He is the Messiah, son of Marium; and the Messiah said: O Children of Israel! serve Allah, my Lord and your Lord. Surely whoever associates (others) with Allah, then Allah has forbidden to him the garden, and his abode is the fire; and there shall be no helpers for the unjust. Quran tells Muslims to kill the disbelievers wherever they find them (Q. 2:191), to murder them and treat them harshly (Q. 9:123), slay them (Q. 9: 5), fight with them, (Q. 8: 65 ) even if they are Christians and Jews, humiliate them and impose on them a penalty tax (Q. 9: 29). Quran takes away the freedom of belief from all humanity and tell clearly that no other religion except Islam is accepted (Q. 3: 85). It relegates those who disbelieve in Quran to hell (Q. 5: 11), calls them najis (filthy, untouchable, impure) (Q. 9: 28). It orders its followers to fight the unbelievers until no other religion except Islam is left (Q. 2: 193).

"Fight those who do not profess the true faith [ISLAM], till they pay the jiziya with the hand of humility." - Koran 9: 29

".... I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers, Smite ye above their necks [CUT OFF THEIR HEADS], and smite all their finger tips of them [CUT OFF THEIR FINGERS]." - Koran 8:12

"Prophet, make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites, and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home: an evil fate." - Koran 9: 73

"When you meet the unbelievers in the Jihad strike off their heads [CUT OFF THEIR HEADS] and, when you have laid them low, bind your captives firmly." - Koran 47:4

"The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and his messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet and alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom...." - Koran 5: 33-34

The Bible reveals that the ‘LORD’ solves conflicts time and again through exerting power and control in violent ways. Faced with the problem of evil he attempted to wash the world clean of wickedness by destroying “all living beings on earth—human beings, animals and birds.” Faced with the conflict of a promise land occupied by whole nations of people his solution was to commit genocide, commanding the Israelites to “put them all to death.” Faced with the embarassment of his own people worshipping idols, he reacted by choosing murder to avenge the transgression, commanding men to take swords and “kill your brothers and friends and neighbors.” Faced with the problem of his chosen people being oppressed by Babylon, he declared: “It’s all-out war in Babylon,” his reaction to conflict throughout the Bible is that of a heavy-handed thug with no more intelligence than the primitive men who wrote the stories. He demanded “total war against people, leaders, and the wise!” God solves conflict by demanding killing, looting and envirnonmental terrorism: “War to the death on her boasting pretenders, fools one and all! War to the death on her soldiers, cowards to a man! War to the death on her hired killers, gutless wonders! War to the death on her banks–looted! War to the death on her water supply–drained dry!’”

Now read (Luke 22:36-37) Where Jesus commands people to take arms for a coming conflict. (John 2:15) Jesus uses a whip to physically drive people out of the temple.

Matthew 10:34 "I came not to send peace but a sword"

I Samuel 2: 6: "The Lord killeth, and maketh alive: he bringeth down to the grave, and bringeth up." I Kings 2: 6-9: "Do therefore according to thy wisdom, and let not his hoar head go down to the grave in peace. Now therefore hold him not guiltless: for thou art a wise man, and knowest what thou oughtest to do unto him; but his hoar head bring thou down to the grave with blood." Job 7: 9: "As the cloud is consumed and vanisheth away: so he that goeth down to the grave shall come up no more." Job 14: 13: "Oh that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me."

What happens to a society that praises a God that:

• is pleased by a man driving a spear completely through a man and into a women’s stomach
• mandates a victim of rape must marry her rapist
• mandates a women is to be stoned to death or burned to death as punishment
• mandates chopping off a womens hand for helping defend her husband in a fight
• orders the killing of brothers, friends and neighbors
• Gives a man’s wives to another man to have sex with for all to see
• kills everything that breathed in the world save 1 family and a boat load of animals
• commands the daily killing and gutting and burning of animals for all time to com
• condones the violent, insulting, dehumanizing treatment of people through slavery
• gives us the doctrines of hell and forgiveness of sin that says that the the most caring, loving women who ever graced the earth but failed to believe in the deity of Christ will be tortured forever and ever and ever… but the mass murderer who raped and strangled ten thousand little girls his whole life and comes to “believe” in Jesus while on death row spends eternity in heaven.

"Garments of fire have been prepared for the unbelievers. Scalding water shall be poured upon their heads, melting their skins and that which is in their bellies. They shall be lashed rods of iron. Whenever, in their anguish, they try to escape from Hell, back they shall be dragged, and will be told: 'Taste the torment of the Conflagration!'" - Koran 22: 19-22, 23

"In order that Allah may separate the pure from the impure, put all the impure ones [all non-Muslims] one on top of another in a heap and cast them into hell. They will have been the ones to have lost." - Koran, 8:37

Ah, the fires of eternal damnation -- familiar to any Christian, I suspect.

But unless we also bear good fruit, we may be discarded and thrown into the fire. [Matthew 7;15-7, 19].

God created mankind perfect, without sin, in God's image and likeness.

According to the New Testament of the Bible, the God of Israel has a Son - Jesus Christ of Nazareth; but Allah has no son according to the Koran

Therefore the Biblical New Testament Christian God of Israel is not Allah

"They say: Allah has taken a Son (to Himself)! Glory be to Him: he is the Self-sufficient: his is what is in the heavens and what is in the Earth; you have no authority for this; do you say against Allah what you do not know? Say: Those who forge a lie against Allah shall not be successful." - Koran 10:68-69 [SAYS JESUS IS NOT THE SON OF GOD AND WHOEVER SAYS SO IS A LIAR]

"....the Christians call 'Christ the Son Of God'. That is a saying from their mouth; (In this) they but intimate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth." - Koran 9: 30

Which is a theological disagreement having nothing to do with whether Islam is a religion of peace or of violence, or both. These quotes are essentially irrelevant to the argument.

John 14:12 -- "The things that I have done, ye also shall do and greater than these shall ye do."

When Pilate askes Jesus if he is the Messiah, he says "That's what they say." Notice that he says "they" say so, not making the claim himself.

Jesus. "Everything is possible for him who believes." [Mark 9;23]

"My father if greater than I." (John 14:28) Also see Matthew 24:26 Read one way at least, it reads as if Jesus is denouncing the possibility of him being the Messiah in those three verses.

Matthew 15:24 Jesus said, "I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of lsrael,". This would of course mean that he is here only to save the Jews. The scriptures repeatedly back up this notion that Christ is savior to the Jews and not the gentiles (see Romans 16:17, Revelations 14:3-4 & John 10).

In light of this, how is it that Christianity, which has a holy scripture that talks abotu violence as well as peaceful conversion, is a religion of love, but Islam, which has a holy scripture that talks about violence as well as peaceful conversion, is a religon of hatred, terror, and violence?

I guess it's all in your come-from. Whatever framework you come from as you red the material will determine what you think it means.

19 posted on 09/13/2005 9:27:23 AM PDT by TBP
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To: TBP
Through its long history, Christianity has supported inquisitions and anti-Semitism

Not by the New Testament it didn't. And it really boils down to this: either what Christ said in John 14:6 is true or it isn't. But, of course, people are free to choose whether or not to believe it.
20 posted on 09/13/2005 9:27:48 AM PDT by F15Eagle (Epistle of James 2:5-6, 12-18, 20, 22, 24)
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To: TBP
Muslim scholar Fareed Zakaria writes: "The historian Paul Johnson has argued that Islam is intrinsically an intolerant and violent religion. Other scholars have disagreed, pointing out that Islam condemns the slaughter of innocents and prohibits suicide. Nothing will be solved by searching for 'true Islam' or quoting the Qur'an. The Qur'an is a vast, vague book, filled with poetry and contradictions (much like the Bible). You can find in it condemnations of war and incitements to struggle, beautiful expressions of tolerance and stern pictures against unbelievers. Quotations from it usually tell us more about the person who selected the passages than about Islam."

And there are similar contradictions, or at least apparent contradictions, in the Bible:

Jesus consistently contradicts himself concerning his Godly status. "I and my father are one." (John 14:28) Also see Philippians 2:5-6 Those verses lead us to believe that he is a part of the trinity and equal to his father being a manifestation of him. Yet, Jesus also made many statements that deny he is the perfect men, much less God incarnate. Take the following for example: "Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is God" (Matthew 19:17). "My father if greater then I." (John 14:28) Also see Matthew 24:26 Clearly, Jesus is denouncing the possibility of him being the Messiah in those three verses.

Jesus said, "whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire" (Matthew 5:22). Yet, he himself did so repeatedly, as Matthew 23:17-19 and Luke 11:40 & 12:20 show. Clearly Jesus should be in danger of hell too?

Does Jesus support peace, or war? Matthew 5:39 "Resist not evil, but whoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also." Also note Matthew 6:38-42 & 26:52 where Jesus teaches non-resistance, Non-violence. Now read (Luke 22:36-37) Where Jesus commands people to take arms for a coming conflict. (John 2:15) Jesus uses a whip to physically drive people out of the temple.

Matthew 15:24 Jesus said, "I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of lsrael,". This would of course mean that he is here only to save the Jews. The scriptures repeatedly back up this notion that Christ is savior to the Jews and not the gentiles (see Romans 16:17, Revelations 14:3-4 & John 10). The contradiction lies in what Jesus later tells his followers: "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations" (Matthew 28:19).

Can we hate our kindred? Luke 14:26 Jesus says "If any man come unto me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brother, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he can not be my disciple." John 3:15 "Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer." Also see Ephesians 6:22, 5:25, & Matthew 15:4

Even many of the staunchest defenders of Jesus admit that his comment in Matthew 10:34 ("I came not to send peace but a sword") contradicts verses such as Matthew 26:52 ("Put up again thy sword into his place: for all that take the sword shall perish with the sword").

Deuteronomy 24:1 & 21:10-14 all say that divorce is allowed for the simple reason if a "man no longer delighteth in his wife". Yet Jesus comes along and breaks his father’s law by saying in Matthew 5:32 that adultery is the only way one can be divorced.

"If Jesus bears witness of himself his witness is true" John 8:14, "If I bear witness of myself it is not true." John 5:31

"I am with you always, even unto the end of the world" (Matthew 28:20), versus "For ye have the poor always with you; but me ye have not always" (Matthew 26:11 , Mark 14:7, John 12:8) and "Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and where I am thither ye cannot come" (John 7:34).

"And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her" (Mark 10:11 & Luke 6:18), versus "And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery" (Matthew 19:9). In the book of Matthew, Jesus said a man could put away his wife if one factor-- fornication--is involved. In Mark and Luke he allowed no exceptions.

Jesus is quoted: "Judge not, and ye shall be not judged; condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven" (Luke 6:37 & Matthew 7:1), versus "Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment" (John 7:24).

"My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" Matthew 27:46, (also note the time before crucification where Jesus prays for the "cup to passeth over me") versus "Now is my soul troubled. And what shall I say? ‘Father, save me from this hour?’ No, for this purpose I have come to this hour" (John 12:27 RSV).

We are told salvation is obtained by faith alone (John 3:18 & 36) yet Jesus told a man to follow the Commandments-Matthew 19:16-18 (saving by works)-if he wanted eternal life.

In Luke 12:4 Jesus told his followers to "Be not afraid of them that kill the body." But Matthew 12:14-16, John 7:1, 8:59, 10:39, 11:53-54, & Mark 1:45 show that Jesus feared death.

Matthew 5:28 says to sin in "your heart" is considered a sin in itself. The messiah is supposed to be God incarnate, not able to sin, yet in Matthew 4:5 & Luke 4:5-9, Jesus was tempted by Satan in the desert, which is sinning in his heart. Jesus also took upon all the sins of the world during his crucifixion.

Jesus told us to "Love your enemies; bless them that curse you," but ignored his own advice by repeatedly denouncing his opposition. Matthew 23:17 ("Ye fools and blind"), Matthew 12:34 ("0 generation of vipers"), and Matthew 23:27 (". . . hypocrites . . . ye are like unto whited sepulchres. . .")

Did the people of Jesus’ generation see any signs? (Matthew 12:38-40) Jesus announced that no signs would be given to that generation except the Resurrection itself. (Mark 8:12-13) Jesus announced that no signs would be given to that generation. (Mark 16:20) They went out preaching, and the Lord confirmed the word through accompanying signs. (John 20:30) Jesus provided many wonders and signs. (Acts 2:22) Jesus provided many wonders and signs. (Acts 5:12 & 8:13) many signs and wonders were done through the apostles.

Jesus commands the disciples to go into Galilee immediately after the resurrection. Matthew 28:10 Jesus commands the disciples to "tarry in Jerusalem" immediately after the resurrection.

Matthew 28:18 & John 3:35 both tell that Jesus said he could do anything. Yet Mark 6:5 says Jesus was not all powerful.

Jesus says in Luke 2:13-14 that he came to bring peace on earth. Matthew 10:34 Jesus backpedals and says he did not come to bring peace on earth.

Did Christ receive testimony from man? "Ye sent unto John and he bare witness unto the truth. But I receive not testimony from man." John 5:33-34 "And ye shall also bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning." John 15:27

Christ laid down his life for his friends. John 15:13 & 10:11 Christ laid down his life for his enemies. Romans 5:10

None of this is to attack Christianity or to make any brief for Islam, as I intend to do neither, merely to show that both religions carry nuances that seem contradictory and it's all in the interpretation. It's all in the come-from. But I believe that the principles used in the interpretation should be consistent. If one chooses to believe the loving interpretation of the apparent contradictions of Christianity, then one should choose to believe in the most loving interpretations of other religions, including Islam, as the real religion, and in the practitioners of violence and terror to be the distorters and usurpers of the religion.

If we belive that there is only one God and that God is love, then how does a religion, and an Abrahamic one at that, found itself on hate, violence, and terror? How would such a religion attract so many followers?

If we believe in only one God, teh God of love, then love is at the ocre of all theology, and anything not of love is a distortion.

Besides, you can't argue on one hand that the evil of Islam is proven by the "fact" that no Muslims will denounce the terrorists, then on the other hand announce that any Muslim who does so, such as this letter writer, or Mr. Zakaria, or the chief Imam in Spain, is not a true Muslim (especially when one is not oneself a Muslim.)

21 posted on 09/13/2005 10:09:09 AM PDT by TBP
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To: F15Eagle

Here is a hypothetical:

Suppose for a moment that instead of Islam, bin Laden and Zarqawi and Zawahiri and the rest of them were climing Judaism as their theological basis. Given the many instances in the Old Testmanet where God orders someone killed, or wipes out whole towns, or floods the Earth and kills everyone but one family, or carries out, orders, or promotes similar acts of violence, would you say in those circumstances that Judiasm was a religion of hate and violence or would you say that bin Laden, Zarqawi, Zawahiri, and the rest were misinterpreting it? Think about your answer for a moment.


22 posted on 09/13/2005 10:12:51 AM PDT by TBP
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To: TBP

I have always claimed they were fundamentalists reading the plain text of the books (there in lies the problem). Israel was given unique orders in some cases. The difference is, the Old Testament came before the New Testament. Those other two books came 600 years after the Advent of Christ.

I don't think we'll agree so I'll just agree to disagree. Again John 14:6 is the Truth for me and nothing else will be able to supplant or deny it for me.

FReegards


23 posted on 09/13/2005 10:24:51 AM PDT by F15Eagle (Epistle of James 2:5-6, 12-18, 20, 22, 24)
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