Delta files for bankruptcy protection

Atlanta Journal-Constitution ^ | 9-16-2005 | Russell Grantham

[phantomworker]

You're right. They first thought the customer was interested in speed, but quickly found out that cost was the major driver.

Do you think there is a market for the A380? They sold enough planes, but do you think it will it "fly" and be profitable? Most airports aren't equipped to handle an airplane of that size.

[RunningWolf]

Wow I really do not know enough about it. It looks to me like it is underpowered, but what do you think?

I am glad I'm not one of the guys making purchasing decisions on it, or a pilot dealing with an engine failure during takeoff climb at gross weight!

The A380, which will be the biggest passenger plane when it comes into service, costs US$282 million to US$302 million each, based on catalog prices.

That is as opposed to $125 million per plane for the 747-400 in the early 1990's

[phantomworker]

Without any real data, just an engineering intuition, I didn't think it would fly. I thought it would be similar to the Spruce Goose. But apparently it did have a first flight, didn't it, a few months ago?

Airbus sold enough planes to commit the A380 to production. Boeing didn't sell any of the 747X that was to compete with it a couple years ago so that's when they went to the Sonic Cruiser. From an American point of view, I hope the A380 flops. But I haven't heard anything about it lately. I know most airports have to rebuild some structures to accomodate the big plane, so it won't be able to land at very many airports in this country. I can't see them filling up the plane to 100%capacity in this country either. I think Singapore Air was its first customer.

Just curious if you had any more information about it.

[RunningWolf]

Airbus A380 vs Boeing 747

On January 18 the Airbus A380 was officially revealed in a ceremony in Toulouse, France. The A380 represents one of the largest European industrial projects ever, and replaces the Boeing 747 as the world's largest airliner. Table 1 compares the Airbus A380-800 to the Boeing 747-400ER.

Table 1: Jumbos compared. Sources: Airliners.net, Wikipedia.

	Airbus A380-800	Boeing 747-400ER
Dimensions
Length	72.8 m	70.7 m
Height	24.1 m	19.4 m
Wingspan	79.8 m	64.4 m
Wing area	845 m2	541 m2
Cabin width	6.58 m	6.10 m
Weights
Operating empty	277,000 kg	181,755 kg
MTOW	540,000 kg	362,875 kg
Powerplants
No. engines	4 turbofans	4 turbofans
Max engine thrust	374 kN (84,000 lb)	276 kN (62,000 lb)
Performance
Cruising speed	902 km/h	907 km/h
Max speed	945 km/h	939 km/h
Range	14,800 km	14,205 km
Capacity
Flightcrew	2	2
Seating (typical)	555	416 (23/78/315)
Seating (max)	840	568
Cargo	N/A	137-158.6 m
Note the difference in the Max TakeOff Weight MTOW as opposed to the disparity in engine total thrust. Like you my engineering intuition says this will be a problem.

[phantomworker]

Interesting comparison of MTOW and the engines. 3 hours isn't a very long maiden flight, is it?

http://events.airbus.com/A380/seeing/indexminisite.aspx

[RunningWolf]

3 hours isn't a very long maiden flight, is it?

Actually I think that is okay to good performance for maiden flights. I have no historical info to back that up

About the Acft weight and total engine thrust, look at the increase in wing area and fuselage area. These things incur more drag of course.
More wing area = more lift.. if you've got the engines to push it. Airbus says all the details are worked out, we shall see ;)

The increase in fuel costs might hurt it even if it performs as advertised.

[magellan]

You might notice a trend toward smaller airplane ... such as the 737. The 757 line has shut down. ... the 767 line is almost down. ... Boeing is placing its bets on smaller more fuel efficient airplanes. The new 787 ...

The 787 is not a small airplane. It is a 250-300 seater, with two of the three proposed models bigger than the 767-400. The 787 is also a long-range airplane, intended for coast to coast, and ultra long range international (i.e., Los Angeles to Bankok, nonstop) routes.

The 787 clearly targets Delta's international model above other models. Delta has more long range 767-300 and 767-400 departures than any other airline. Of the three major U.S. international carriers (United, Northwest, and Delta), Delta is the only carrier which does not fly 747s. Instead Delta chooses to offer multiple daily departures with 767s (and the occasional 777).

This might indicate ... the smaller Southwest models will thrive in the near future.

There is no doubt the model of more, smaller aircraft, flying direct between destinations is a trend. Once can see that from the sales of Boeing 737s and Airbus A320s. However, the 787 is not an indication of this domestic trend. Aircraft like the 787 in no way fit into the Southwest domestic model. They do fit into a similar model at an international level, with direct flights between second-tier cities.

Perhaps the 787 will fit in JetBlue's coast to coast model, assuming JetBlue's traffic per departure doubles, requiring an aircraft with more than twice the capacity of its A320s. But JetBlue is likey to adopt the Airbus A350, as Airbus' financing is a tool JetBlue uses to minimize its operating costs.

[phantomworker]

Thanks, that makes a lot of sense. The 787 was built to fill the niche in the mid market range with superior fuel efficiency. What do you think of the A380 market?

[freeangel]

Delta is going for having to pay no Georgia taxes, a multi-million dollar savings. If a business can't make it on it's own, than that business does not need to be in business. Poor management and unions is what happened.

[phantomworker]

http://slate.msn.com/id/2126383/

Interesting stuff. The news just continues.

[Polyxene]

"I can't explain their pricing."

I can't either! Delta fares have always been higher here in Cincinnati than in any other city. My daughter and I flew to California last year and drove to Columbus to save money on the airfare. It was almost half what it would have been from Cincinnati. Most people here drive to Columbus, Dayton, Indianapolis or Louisville to save money on airfare.

[RunningWolf]

More grist for the mill. A very insightful article IMO

Airlines using bankruptcy as business tool

"There was a time when a major corporation's slide into Bankruptcy Court would have been freighted with significance, convulsion and shame. Now, it's just another business tool.

With Wednesday's filings by Delta and Northwest airlines, four of seven major airlines will be in bankruptcy reorganization.

There are really two airline industries: the dynamic low-fare carriers such as Southwest and the sclerotic cartel of the old "majors" that always finds a way to come back from the dead. The result is the worst of both worlds.

At the moment, labor is a convenient fall guy.

United has used bankruptcy reorganization to eliminate 25,000 jobs and commit the largest pension default in history.

Somebody's profiting, but it's not workers, and not, ultimately, customers.

What we have yet to see is management accountability."

[phantomworker]

Interesting article. People too easily forget what American unions have done for this country.

"At the moment, labor is a convenient fall guy.
That's odd, considering that every worker who enjoys an eight-hour day, a safe workplace, benefits and whose children don't toil 12-hour days - every one of us can thank organized labor for these good things taken for granted. Those victories were dearly purchased in the 1930s. Today, average Americans are likely to complain about stagnant wages and declining benefits while also bemoaning those nasty airline unions."

[RunningWolf]

Many Americans, 'us people' (go ahead and flame me someone!) too easily forget what Americans have done for this country. And that is whether the forgotten are CEO's, blue collar, white collar, immigrant, general, foot soldier, fly-boy, loader, et al.

I get sick of all the class baiting that goes on sometimes.
It happens on the FR occasionally, but you wont see it come out of the mouths of our administration.

[RunningWolf]

BTW I like the tag line.. It is not the answer that enlightens, but the question.

[magellan]

Thanks, that makes a lot of sense. The 787 was built to fill the niche in the mid market range with superior fuel efficiency. What do you think of the A380 market?

I believe the A380 has a very limited market. Basically, look for where a single airline has at least three daily 747 flights for a city pair, and that is where an airline is likely to replace that with two A380s. The airline still wants multiple departures for both customer choice and for connections.

New York to London, San Francisco and Los Angeles to Tokyo, and a few others are likely opportunities.

The real changes in international travel will continue to be the increase in point to point long-range international travel, brought about by the Boeing 767 and 777.

To give an example, as this thread is about Delta Airlines, Delta offers the following long-range nonstop international flights from Atlanta Georgia using 767s and 777s:

Amsterdam, Barcelona, Buenos Aires, Frankfurt, Dublin, Madrid, Manchester, Lima, London, Milan, Moscow, Munich, Paris, Rome, Stuttgart, Sao Paulo, Tokyo, Shannon, and Zurich.

These point to point flights are the wave of the future. Not hub and spoke operations into JFK, LAX, SFO, and MIA.

[chickenteeth]

Well I think it's more than fuel,fuel fuel. The pilots union made a sweet deal with the previous jerk CEO, Leo Mullin. Pilots can retire and walk out the door with a 1 million in at Delta have had wonderful work rules sometimes paid double pay for a flight. It's the other employees in the other departments who can least afford to take a paycut.Unlike the pilots they have had about a 2% pay raise in over a dozen years. Couple that with inflation and their pay has substantially decreased in the past 12 years. Not only that but the other departments which are non-union have incurred severe reductions in staff,medical benefits and a worsening work environment. If Delta announces more than a 15% paycut I would predict a lot of resignations. The mechanics are the only other labor department with substantial pay raises and have an average income of $100,000.

[printhead]

That and I think the mindset of potential passengers. I am in Atlanta several times a year for both business and personal reasons. Post 9-11 and the hassle of steping out of line to be searched (I don't even wear a turban)I drive there now. Sure it's 16 hours each way, but the way things are now I don't care if I ever get on a plane again. That's the mindset that needs fixing.