Posted on 09/17/2005 7:50:54 AM PDT by Graybeard58
GRAND RAPIDS, Mich. -- In the market for a good used car? Watch out for vehicles that sat submerged for days in the flooded streets of New Orleans, Biloxi or other Gulf Coast cities ravaged by Hurricane Katrina.
Insurance companies usually purchase such vehicles from policyholders, declare them "totaled" and then sell them at auction to be resold for parts, many of which will still be suitable for use in other cars and trucks.
But some unscrupulous dealers and wholesalers buy flood-damaged cars at scrap prices, clean them up, retitle them and resell them. The vehicles may look good, but their electronics and safety systems are likely damaged -- and threaten the safety of the new owners.
After virtually every major U.S. flood, the Better Business Bureau warns prospective used car buyers to be on the lookout for flood-damaged vehicles.
"You want to be extra cautious," said Ken Vender Meeden, president of the Grand Rapids-based Better Business Bureau of Western Michigan. "Unfortunately, deals that sound too good to be true for cars could include damaged goods. 'Let the buyer beware' applies most readily in post-hurricane-type disasters."
When Hurricane Floyd struck Florida in 1999, an estimated 75,000 vehicles were ruined by floods and totaled by insurance companies, according to Carfax Inc., a Fairfax, Va.-based firm that performs background checks on used vehicles.
More than half of those cars and trucks, however, were resold to buyers unaware of the vehicles' past or uninformed about the extent of the damage caused by flooding, Carfax said.
Carfax estimates, based on information it has received from law enforcement and government authorities, that between 250,000 and 500,000 vehicles could have been damaged by flood waters generated by Katrina.
Prospective buyers should have a used car's history researched to make sure a flood-damaged title hasn't been issued for it, Carfax spokesman Larry Gamache said. A search using a vehicle identification number can be performed for a fee at Web sites such as Carfax.com and AutoCheck.com.
A mechanic also should inspect the vehicle.
"A mechanic is going to be able to look for signs of water damage that won't appear on a title document or a piece of paper," Gamache said. "Things like water levels in the engine well, rusting wires. He can look inside your ventilation system and see if there's any debris."
Prospective buyers also can do a bit of detective work themselves. The National Automobile Dealers Association, which represents approximately 20,000 new car and truck dealers, offers a 10-step inspection checklist to guide shoppers.
While there's no foolproof way to detect vehicle flood damage, NADA officials say potential buyers should inspect the interior, trunk and engine compartment for rust, musty odors and other signs of significant water damage.
"Dealers are very concerned these affected vehicles could enter the used car market," said Jack Kain, chairman of the McLean, Va.-based association. "Fortunately, there are steps that car shoppers can take to detect water damage and protect themselves."
While nearly all states have laws against sellers misrepresenting flood-damaged cars and trucks to their buyers, the nation needs a uniform system for clearly identifying such vehicles, said Clarence Ditlow, executive director of the Center for Auto Safety.
Ditlow said his Washington-based advocacy group has lobbied state and federal lawmakers to mandate the words "flood damaged" be placed on certificates of title of all flooded vehicles.
He also wants to require that "flood damaged" markers be placed on doorjambs of affected vehicles. The sale of all used cars should include disclosure sheets listing any known problems, he said.
"Every consumer buying vehicles should be aware that they may be buying flooded vehicles," Ditlow said. "Just because you live in Nevada, don't think you aren't going to run into a flooded vehicle."
Jim Casey, a manager at Berger Chevrolet in Grand Rapids, said his dealership checks the titles of all used vehicles it purchases at auction and accepts in trades to make sure none have had flood damage.
Casey advised potential buyers to closely examine titles, which can be altered, falsified or laundered through another state.
In Michigan, titles for good cars are printed on green paper while titles for salvage vehicles are printed on orange paper.
"There are ways to get a clean title (for a flood-damaged car) and that's the thing that people need to be aware of," he said.
Good advice...but it reads like an ad for Carfax ... typical of a lazy reporter copying a press release.
Always, always, always check the VIN with Car Fax before buying a used car. It may look perfect on the outside but if it has been underwater there is a very good chance the electrical system is shot. And if water got into the exhaust, the catalytic converter and muffler are probably shot as well and the inside of the engine may very well have be corroded.
There is an enormous amount of jonque out there. The steel mines could almost be closed down for several months, while the stock of automotive scrap is used up.
LOTS of reclaimable plastics, aluminum and lead-acid batteries to be salvaged. I see great potential for an electric-power foundry or two to go into operation.
I just returned from ten days of shooting photos in the affected areas and can tell you firsthand of the hundreds of cars sitting in yards with all two or four doors, the trunk and the hood open to speed the drying out process. I was amazed at how little visible damage these vehicles had, but they had been fully submerged in some cases. Give me a minute to figure out how and I will post a link to a photo of one such vehicle. Meanwhile, interested parties can peruse the pictures I took during that time at: http://www.jwparker.com . You'll have to click on a thumbnail in the second row of images for the storm shots. The site is used to display my various shoots and not just for the storm, so you'll have to excuse the other sections.
Steel mines?
A major clue and easy to check is the fact the vehicle will be missing it's owners manual. Also flip up the back seat and look for the work order. If it's rotted out, one may deduce that the vehicle was in the soak, wash and spin cycle.
I'll bet you can get a good deal on well-marinated school buses, too.
peyton randolph wrote:
Good advice...but it reads like an ad for Carfax ... typical of a lazy reporter copying a press release.
---Good point, People need to be aware "Carfax" is not to be trusted for accuracy either. I've run into cars that have obviously been damaged and repaired (major accidents) and Carfax does not report it for what ever reason (maybe the owner fixed the car if they had enough money to fix without giong through the insurance, title being laundered, etc.
Definately have the car your going to purchase checked out by a mechanic that works on that particular brand everyday.
Having experts check out a potential car has saved me hassles.
I thought your insurance company did a title check?
I purchased such a vehicle in 1994: a 1990 Nissan Sentra with 22,000 miles. I drove it for 6 years, sold it to a friend. He drove it for 3 years, at which point it needed some work. He sold it to a guy who fixes up cars. He replaced the clutch and rebuilt the transmission. It's still going, now it has over 100,000 on the clock.
The vehicle was sold to me by a dealer who explained the rebuilt title and the type of flood damage.
I see no problem with selling these flooded cars as long as the buyer is aware of what he is getting.
Bargains for those who can rebuild and clean them.
"Good point, People need to be aware "Carfax" is not to be trusted for accuracy either."
I've read similar reports about Carfax. Another service is Autocheck.com, but don't know if they're any better.
'There was nothing wrong with that caah but a couple of finganail scratches on the door handles, and a slight musty smell.'
A lot of Corinthian cows will pay for this disaster with their lives. We'd better alert PETA.
I'd be more concerned about water moccasins under the seat.
Seriously, a car that's been underwater for days will never be the same again. Mostly it's all those electrical connections and sensors. Even if you manage to clean it up and get that fishy smell out, things will just stop working at times, from windows and door locks to the engine. It is possible to WD-40 every single connector and plug, but even then you will have strange problems. And that fishy smell always comes back in the summer.
Graybeard58 wrote:"
A lot of Corinthian cows will pay for this disaster with their lives. We'd better alert PETA."
--I wonder how they take the flood smell/stains out of the leather seats?
But not all flooded vehicles go that route. Plenty of individual operators will be fixing up these cars and selling them on the side, side-stepping the insurance companies, Car Fax, etc.
I always laugh when "they" tell you to have a mechanic check out a car before you buy it. Whatta they think, we're gonna convince a seller to let us have the car for a day or two and pay a mechanic $120/hr (or whatever the heck it is nowadays) to pour over every car we're thinking about buying? No thanks.
Personally, in the future I think I'll just avoid all used cars up through model year 2005.
The tv show on Discovery Channel, Myth Busters showed how you just can't recover a car when a person dies in it. They put meat (whole pig) in a fancy late model car and had the experts try to recover. No one could, hazmat suits had to be warn to dispose of the car.
maybe
(Denny Crane: "Sometimes you can only look for answers from God and failing that... and Fox News".)
I told them it was probably a bad buy but they had both just graduated from college and were starting out without much money. They bought it, and to my surprise, it never gave them any trouble. Apparantly it can be done if done correctly.
After careful consideration, I being the magnanimous and gracious fellow that I am and in the interest of comity, have decided to accept what you said and do so without delving into any underlying or sinister motives on your part.
I did check your resume and references but I don't call that "delving", just being careful, as are most self respecting members of this forum.
I'm off to an arts and crafts fair now with my wife. I asked her if I could just take a beatin' instead but she says she wants my opinion on myriads of items and "works of art".
If you were only here, I could explain to her the utter necessity of we two scholars retiring to the local bistro to solve the worlds problems and more mundane issues as well, if we only had the time.
Ebay shyster ping
Anytime one buys a used car you are taking a chance. I've bought my share over the years and even if they are checked by a "mechanic" and are not flood damaged they can still have significant problems. That's why I buy them new.
There are going to be a whole bunch of pissed off used car buyers in the future from these flood cars. They'll even have a "60 minutes" piece for sure.
Everytime a section of the country floods, we get this "warning" from the press. Lazy reporters, dusting off an old story.
Bush's Fault.
carfax had a free trial a few months back. a bunch of people on another forum who had cars that had been in a major wreck put there cars in and they came up clean.
they can't know everything, but I guess its better than nothing
There will be a boatload of flood cars on sale all over the country. Many years ago, a friend of mine got a "real deal" on a 74 Caprice, only to find it smelled like rotten fish whenever it rained.
Are Naugas only useful for the hyde or is the meat tasty?
Ahh... but in the end, they were able to sell the car (for parts).... so the myth of a "car too smelly to sell" was busted.
LOL true, I agree with you there. I like Myth Busters, fun show.
Yeah, and the redhead (Kari, not Adam) isn't bad to look at either!
Some? And while we're at it I'd like a list of the "scrupulous" dealers. Never mind I had it right here on this page before I started writing.
I think they are next to the spaghetti orchards.
I think they are next to the spaghetti orchards.
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