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More women are asking for prenups
Sun Sentinel ^ | September 18, 2005 | Georgia East

Posted on 09/18/2005 3:05:48 AM PDT by Caipirabob

Over a casual dinner, Rachel Kaplan turned to her boyfriend and asked, "You're open for a prenup, right?"

Darren Waldohlz, 38, a partner in a successful speed-dating business, admits he was caught off guard. But he said he realized a prenuptial agreement would protect the house he owns, too.

"It's not that I plan to get divorced," says Kaplan, 23, a single mom from Fort Lauderdale, who has a sizable inheritance. "I have to protect myself and my daughter."

While men are still more likely to seek a prenup, "women are becoming a more dominant force," said attorney Alan Braverman, who has offices in Fort Lauderdale and Boynton Beach.

Experts attribute the change to women marrying later or more than once.

"It's not uncommon in today's world that women are entering marriages with assets and stock options," said matrimonial attorney Jacqueline Valdespino, in Coral Gables. "Now both sides have equal bargaining power."

(Excerpt) Read more at sun-sentinel.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Extended News
KEYWORDS: divorce; greed; marriage; matrimony; prenup; prenuptual
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By all means, if you believe the person you have chosen for a lifetime partnership is a lying, cheating, greedy skank-a-lank then get that dotted line signed.

Just kidding. I do mourn the moral and cultural breakdown that has reduced "Holy Matrimony" to a business transaction. And yet seriously, I don't blame many of these people.

It's a sad fact that the societal morality has degraded and destroyed the significance of marriage to the point where the social perspective of divorce bears no more stigma than a trip to the ATM. And since many divorces end up being a trip to the ATM for one or the other party, a prenuptual agreement is a wise approach if you have any lingering doubts.

Yet my thoughts would be that if you have any doubts, why bother getting married at all?

Let's face it, unless you AND your mate are strongly ground in morality, more than likely derived from a lifetime of faith, you are fodder for divorce lawyers.

Otherwise marriage is a temporary state that endures until one or the other partner decides they like the Lexus more than their partner.

I'm not being dour, just practical.

On the other hand, there is a place for non conditional marriage in this world. I hope that many who read this are part of such a relationship and pray that the others who hope to enjoy such one day.

Anyway, so what do y'all think? Have at it...

1 posted on 09/18/2005 3:05:49 AM PDT by Caipirabob
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To: Caipirabob
"It's not that I plan to get divorced," says Kaplan, 23,

That's exactly what your doing, you little harpy.

2 posted on 09/18/2005 3:16:08 AM PDT by Ajnin (I)
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To: Ajnin
That's exactly what your doing, you little harpy.

LOL! Nearly word for word I had the same thought.

3 posted on 09/18/2005 3:17:37 AM PDT by Caipirabob (Democrats.. Socialists..Commies..Traitors...Who can tell the difference?)
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To: Caipirabob

My only question is how to breach the subject of a prenup to your SigOther without having a plate of fettucine alfredo smeared on your face? Or, even worse (far worse), heart-wrenching sobs accompanied by 'why don't you trust me!'


4 posted on 09/18/2005 3:19:10 AM PDT by spetznaz (Nuclear-tipped Ballistic Missiles: The Ultimate Phallic Symbol)
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To: Caipirabob

She wanted to protect her inheritance for her child. If this was a first marriage, I would agree, but with a second marriage you do owe something to protect and provide for your child, just in case you were blinded by lust, oops, I mean love.

They could also be protected by your will, but...


5 posted on 09/18/2005 3:27:57 AM PDT by KeyWest
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To: Caipirabob

sign ..............


6 posted on 09/18/2005 3:35:16 AM PDT by sure_fine (*not one to over kill the thought process*)
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To: Caipirabob

If you're looking for outs before you make the commitment, what's the point? You're simply preparing for failure. Not many succeed while preparing for failure...


7 posted on 09/18/2005 3:37:01 AM PDT by DB ()
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To: Caipirabob

My wife and I were gonna have a prenup but we couldn't agree on who got the tent and who got the VW sans floor so we just said the hell with it.


8 posted on 09/18/2005 3:38:13 AM PDT by jwalsh07
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To: Caipirabob
Over a casual dinner, Rachel Kaplan turned to her boyfriend and asked, "You're open for a prenup, right?"

Darren Waldohlz, 38, a partner in a successful speed-dating business, admits he was caught off guard. But he said he realized a prenuptial agreement would protect the house he owns, too.

"It's not that I plan to get divorced," says Kaplan, 23, a single mom from Fort Lauderdale, who has a sizable inheritance. "I have to protect myself and my daughter."

In other words,

" I want him to support me and my child until my inheritance comes in, but then he gets nothing when I make my escape."

9 posted on 09/18/2005 3:39:07 AM PDT by Bon mots
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To: Caipirabob

We've gotta change the marriage vows.

"I _____ take you ______ to be my lawful wedded ______, to have and to hold from this day forward, for better for worse, for richer for poorer, in sickness and in health, until we are parted by death. This is my solemn vow."

Change to:

"I vow that I'll stay until I don't."


It'll shorten the ceremonies.


10 posted on 09/18/2005 3:41:11 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It!)
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To: Caipirabob
greedy skank-a-lank

LOL, I'm guessing John sKerry had to sign one.

11 posted on 09/18/2005 3:42:35 AM PDT by benjaminjjones
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To: jwalsh07
the tent...the VW sans floor

Ah, the good old days...

12 posted on 09/18/2005 3:44:30 AM PDT by benjaminjjones
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To: Caipirabob
Yet my thoughts would be that if you have any doubts, why bother getting married at all?

People do change, and during the courtship period most are putting on their best face. After marriage is when we really get to know the person.
13 posted on 09/18/2005 3:48:15 AM PDT by R. Scott (Humanity i love you because when you're hard up you pawn your Intelligence to buy a drink.)
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To: Caipirabob
I do mourn the moral and cultural breakdown that has reduced "Holy Matrimony" to a business transaction.

Marriage has a long history of being just a business transaction. Marrying for love is a very recent phenomenon (maybe the last couple of centuries).

14 posted on 09/18/2005 3:52:02 AM PDT by Junior (Just because the voices in your head tell you to do things doesn't mean you have to listen to them)
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To: DB
For most men getting prenups is the fact that in todays world the family court system is heavily stacked in favor for the women, and stacked heavily against men ( who usually get hammered financially in court ) with no thanks to the feminist.
A better way to stop this moral decline and madness is to get rid of NO FAULT DIVORCE.

I know a couple who were married for 25 years, and he was wealthy BEFORE her meet her.

At the end of the marriage, she decided that she " DIDN'T LOVE HIM ANYMORE " but, even in the face of the fact she didn't love him anymore, she wanted his wealth and got half of everything he owned, and that's not right.

She only loved the money and wealth he had, and he had no indication that she was this way or would do this to him years before hand, so ? I don't blame a man who would want to protect his wealth.

People can change over the years, and in most cases, you have no way what they might or might not do, or what is in their heart or motives.

It is not true that you can tell all the time if someone is going to lie, steal, cheat, deceive you, and get over on you, in some cases, you JUST DON"T KNOW.

Some people can be honest, or truthful in the beginning of a marriage, but, at some point can change on you, and you must take measures to protect yourself financially from someone who is out to get every dime out of you by deceitfulness or lying.
That is why we need to get rid of no fault divorce.
15 posted on 09/18/2005 3:52:57 AM PDT by Prophet in the wilderness (PSALM 53 : 1 The FOOL hath said in his heart , There is no GOD .)
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To: jwalsh07

Exactly. When my wife and I were first married, neither of us had squat. Everything we've got now, we've gotten together.


16 posted on 09/18/2005 3:53:30 AM PDT by Junior (Just because the voices in your head tell you to do things doesn't mean you have to listen to them)
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To: Caipirabob

Back in the day, it used to be common practice that the guy hand over his nups (or at least have them taken) on their wedding day. Now she wants prenups? This maybe going too far...


17 posted on 09/18/2005 3:53:45 AM PDT by Libloather (Hillary, be a doll and give me back my FBI file...)
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To: R. Scott

Yep, to many found out the hard way. Plus pren-ups also protect businesses to stay intact, which I am sure the employees appreciate! How many businesses have been ruined and liquidated just to pay the ex?


18 posted on 09/18/2005 3:55:30 AM PDT by neb52
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To: Bon mots
BINGO !!
19 posted on 09/18/2005 3:59:30 AM PDT by Prophet in the wilderness (PSALM 53 : 1 The FOOL hath said in his heart , There is no GOD .)
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To: Bon mots
Until they get rid of no fault divorce, prenups for men should be the mainstay and law of the land for men to protect what ever wealth he may have built up BEFORE he meet his wife.
20 posted on 09/18/2005 4:01:23 AM PDT by Prophet in the wilderness (PSALM 53 : 1 The FOOL hath said in his heart , There is no GOD .)
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To: Bon mots
" I want him to support me and my child until my inheritance comes in, but then he gets nothing when I make my escape."

Yup. Don't you just get that feeling.

21 posted on 09/18/2005 4:04:35 AM PDT by music is math
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To: R. Scott
" After marriage is when we really get to know the person. " .....

And even after years and decades of marriage, some still don't know the person they married.

There are people who are evil and devious to the core, but, are very good at hiding it from the rest of the world.
22 posted on 09/18/2005 4:05:44 AM PDT by Prophet in the wilderness (PSALM 53 : 1 The FOOL hath said in his heart , There is no GOD .)
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To: Caipirabob

Well, she does have a child from a prior relationship. She has an inheritance coming that needs to be sheltered for the child. It doesn't say in the article whether her bf has children from a prior marriage. If she should die, if I'm not mistaken, legally her husband would inherit all of her assets under common law. That means his children would also stand to inherit. Have you ever seen grown children fight over money? It isn't pretty.

As for first time married couples, pre-nups, set you up for failure. Jmo, however Tori Spelling has one, for obvious reasons. I'm sure when Paris and Paris tie the knot, they'll both have one. The rich are not like you and me.


23 posted on 09/18/2005 4:08:05 AM PDT by TheSpottedOwl ("President Bush, start building that wall"!)
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To: Junior
No fault divorce is what the real issue of prenups come from.
No fault divorce is what is have destroying the marriage, family, our communities, and our country.
A family is the backbone of society.
24 posted on 09/18/2005 4:09:04 AM PDT by Prophet in the wilderness (PSALM 53 : 1 The FOOL hath said in his heart , There is no GOD .)
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To: Caipirabob
The social perspective of divorce bears no more stigma than a trip to the ATM.

Yes, stigma having been stigmatized has had negative consequences. Approval and disapproval are what drives a culture "for better or worse."

If we recover our collective senses, getting married and staying married (even when the going gets tough) will be highly valued. Still, prenups are prudent to have, like wills and life insurance.

25 posted on 09/18/2005 4:14:59 AM PDT by NutCrackerBoy
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To: neb52
I wonder how it looked like before feminism really came to power and into play in our world and divorces.
If you really want to look at the reason why thing are today, just take a look at what the feminist have done to brainwash , warp, and pollute women's minds and how they managed to manipulate the court system to rule in their favor in the last 40 to 50 years.
26 posted on 09/18/2005 4:17:11 AM PDT by Prophet in the wilderness (PSALM 53 : 1 The FOOL hath said in his heart , There is no GOD .)
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To: music is math

Yup... and with no thanks to the feminsit, and TV shows like Oprah.


27 posted on 09/18/2005 4:18:58 AM PDT by Prophet in the wilderness (PSALM 53 : 1 The FOOL hath said in his heart , There is no GOD .)
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To: Prophet in the wilderness

Yep.


28 posted on 09/18/2005 4:25:55 AM PDT by R. Scott (Humanity i love you because when you're hard up you pawn your Intelligence to buy a drink.)
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To: TheSpottedOwl
Suppose it was the other way around ?
Like a flip flop, the man had a child from a prior relationship or marriage, and the man was about to get a inheritance that he wants to shelter his inheritance for his child from a conniving lying snake girlfriend ( who is good at hiding her true motives and character ) who wanted to marry him.
Would he be justified to protect himself and the child's inheritance and financial future from this woman ?
29 posted on 09/18/2005 4:26:26 AM PDT by Prophet in the wilderness (PSALM 53 : 1 The FOOL hath said in his heart , There is no GOD .)
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To: Prophet in the wilderness

"If you really want to look at the reason why things are today, just take a look at what the feminist have done to brainwash, warp, and pollute women's minds...."

Hold on a minute. As a female, I admit that Feminism has done alot of damage but it's also done some good. 40 or 50 years ago, a man could walk out on his wife for a younger woman (and it happened quite often), leaving the wife with absolutely nothing. There are instances like this in my family. The man left the woman (with kids) and carried on with his new girlfriend as if he didn't have a life before her. The wife had no choice but to go out and work, but back then, women weren't as educated as they are today, so the wife had to get a menial job and the pay was menial as well. Try raising children in a position like that.

Some of you Freeper men really confuse the hell out of me. First women are blood suckers and should be forced to sign a prenup if the man is wealthy. Then women are bitches if they dare to educate themselves, move up the corporate ladder but have a difficult time finding a male companion. So if you are looking to blame Feminism, then some of the blame falls squarely on your shoulders as well. Woman are damned if they do, and damned if they don't.

Sorry to rant, but geez.


30 posted on 09/18/2005 4:29:41 AM PDT by Arpege92 ("I am happy, be it yourselves." - Pope John Paul II)
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To: R. Scott
People do change, and during the courtship period most are putting on their best face. After marriage is when we really get to know the person.

Correct. Someone going into a marriage, may not see things which should raise red flags. Men as well as women can be gold diggers, never mind just plain nuts.

31 posted on 09/18/2005 4:30:49 AM PDT by TheSpottedOwl ("President Bush, start building that wall"!)
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To: TheSpottedOwl

Yep. But - love comes with a set of blinders.


32 posted on 09/18/2005 4:35:22 AM PDT by R. Scott (Humanity i love you because when you're hard up you pawn your Intelligence to buy a drink.)
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To: Caipirabob
My wife and I have a prenup.

One item, two words:

NO CATS

33 posted on 09/18/2005 4:38:15 AM PDT by Manic_Episode (Perhaps today)
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To: Caipirabob

-Darren Waldohlz, 38, a partner in a successful speed-dating business, admits he was caught off guard.-

Guess he jumped in too fast?


34 posted on 09/18/2005 4:42:18 AM PDT by AmericanChef
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To: Arpege92
The man left the woman (with kids) and carried on with his new girlfriend as if he didn't have a life before her.

The ability to treat deadbeat husbands, especially dads, as criminals is a great reason for the state to enforce the terms of marriage. This is just nuts and bolts of civilized life, or should be, if we weren't so fixated, collectively, on individual gratification rather than individual responsibility, to the extent that we don't even know what marriage is for.

Feminism defined as more women having career available to them is fine, but not when it takes away the option of devoting themselves to child-rearing. A woman should not have to stay in the workforce as a protection against the husband abandoning his responsibilities - society and the law should provide the protection.

35 posted on 09/18/2005 4:52:01 AM PDT by NutCrackerBoy
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To: Prophet in the wilderness

An even better question is why someone want to marry a lying, conniving snake, in the first place?

Just because there is a pre-nup, does not preclude the spouse from contributing money to the marriage. If the amount of money is sizable, then the principle is held in trust, and one can live off the interest.

Inheritances are exempt from the mutual assests considered in a divorce action. Well, they used to be. We don't know how the document was written up. It could have been worded to avoid a fight between the children in case of death. Wills can be successfully challenged. Just look at the mess Anna Nicole Smith went through.

Always remember that the love of money is the root of all evil.


36 posted on 09/18/2005 4:58:22 AM PDT by TheSpottedOwl ("President Bush, start building that wall"!)
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To: spetznaz
My only question is how to breach the subject of a prenup to your SigOther without having a plate of fettucine alfredo smeared on your face? Or, even worse (far worse), heart-wrenching sobs accompanied by 'why don't you trust me!'

Start asking her for money... Before long, if she doesn't dump you, she'll demand one!

Mark

37 posted on 09/18/2005 5:02:26 AM PDT by MarkL (I didn't get to where I am today by worrying about what I'd feel like tomorrow!)
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To: Caipirabob
Only those who make a fuss out of prenups before the marriage are the ones who have a ulterior motive in the whole thing , and has something to hid, because, if they didn't , they would have no problem with prenups.

That " Don't' you trust me " line is a poor excuse, and lame line to make the other party feel guilty for wanting to protect themselves and their property or wealth that was built up before they even meet.

It is the same deceitful heart condition, and motive as the same line in the Samson and Delilah story from Delilah.

The Philistines wanted to know were Samson got his strength so they can defeat Samson, so ? they conveniently sent beautiful Delilah his way because they knew Samson was weak when it came to beautiful women.

After many times trying to find out Samson's strength, Delilah got frustrated, and said to Samson ,

that, " if you TRULY LOVE ME, you would tell me were you get your strength from "

Knowing in her heart that he would want to please her, and not make her feel hurt, ( in truth, Delilah couldn't care less about Samson personally .

When ever their other person says " don't you trust me " or " don't you love me " red flags should go up in warning.

If they ( the other person ) leave or split after mentioning a prenup before getting married, then, they were the wrong one, and only wanted something else ( for selfish reasons ) out of the marriage than true love and commitment.

The party ( person ) who is wanting a prenup is basically saying,
( I am entering this marriage in good faith, wanting to make a commitment, and to love, )
However ? if by your part ( the other person ) is dishonest, deceitful, does not want to make a true commitment and for what ever reason this marriage fails ( and fails, not by my part, but, by your part )

then ?

I am taking necessary steps to protect myself, my family, and my financial future if ( you , on ( YOUR PART ) fail to live up to your commitment, or faith, or love in this marriage ).

Buy no means does a prenup necessarily mean that if you are the one who wants a prenup, that you are saying this marriage is going to fail.

You are putting the burden of the level of honesty, the level of commitment or the other person to live up their wedding vows on them to live up to, because you know in your hear that you want to make the marriage work.
38 posted on 09/18/2005 5:03:47 AM PDT by Prophet in the wilderness (PSALM 53 : 1 The FOOL hath said in his heart , There is no GOD .)
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To: R. Scott

Blinders and a temporary lobotomy, lol!

The ones you have to watch out for, are the ones who have a problem. They are one person during the courting process, then they get the ring on your finger, and you see the real person. If you're young, it's difficult to spot them in time.


39 posted on 09/18/2005 5:10:18 AM PDT by TheSpottedOwl ("President Bush, start building that wall"!)
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To: Caipirabob

"I'm not being dour, just practical."

Quite right. People grounded in morality KNOW they are going for the long haul because if they don't they are not who and what they believe themselves to be.

Looking at it from another angle: Those guys who go over the top into the teeth of machine gun fire do so not because they WANT to but because they recognize a Truth greater than their own lives.


40 posted on 09/18/2005 5:28:45 AM PDT by TalBlack
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To: Arpege92
Yes.. it was a travesty 50 years ago if a man were to leave his wife and find a new girlfriend, and leave his family.
However ? women are not angles either, and they did the same thing 50 years ago also, fooling around behind their husbands backs while the men are at work trying to feed the family.
So ? don't try to make women out to be the angles that you are trying to do here.
And what is the excuse for women today fooling around on their husbands backs ?
Or women taking men for a ride and taking every dime he's got even though he didn't deserve to be treated that way.
I know a couple who were married 25 years, and she just decided one day " I don't love him anymore, but ? still got half of everything he owns ( even though, he got his wealth before he meet her ) is it revenge that women are seeking towards men ?
You know, women DO cheat on their husbands ? it's been going on since time began.
I am not trying to seek a argument with you, I believe you are a decent, honest, caring person who wants to do the best in the world.
but, you must also look at both sides of the issue, not just one side.
Women are not angles either, and I also know that men can be rats also in the way they treat women, but, women must also admit and recognize that they also treat men like dirt also.
I had a friend tell me onetime that he was watching the Oprah show one time.
It was about WOMEN WHO TAKE MEN FOR A RIDE FINANCAILLY ..... and he told me, when Oprah and the women talked about how they managed to cheat those men out of their money, they laughed about it in front of the whole national TV audience....
That's just plane WRONG, and if I saw a TV show were men treat women like dogs or cheat women out of their money, that is WRONG ALSO.

I saw how divorce devastated my family when my dad went out and cheated on my mom and we had NOTHING.
No money, or food, no nothing
BUT ????? it wasn't because my dad didn't try to feed us, or help us.
It was because my mom was a bad manager of the money my dad gave her, and also ?
She had to get her revenge against him, and was vindictive towards him, and spent the money some were else to make him look bad ( THAT"S PLAIN WRONG ) yes, he cheated on her, but,, that does not make her right to make him look worse than the situation already was.
My dad was always a good provider, and even after he left us, he did his best to provide for us, but, my mom wanted to " STICK IT TO MY DAD IN HER REVENGE ) and either spent the money he gave her unwisely, or spent the money somewere else.
41 posted on 09/18/2005 5:30:59 AM PDT by Prophet in the wilderness (PSALM 53 : 1 The FOOL hath said in his heart , There is no GOD .)
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To: Ajnin
Dearly beloved,

How about taking your prenuptual agreement on the flight with you to Somalia? I bought you a one-way ticket.

P.S. Don't let the door hit you on your conceited little butt on the way out.

America - home of millions of women with attitude. (like we need more of that)

This is still more proof American males should seek women from Russia and Eastern Europe.

42 posted on 09/18/2005 5:36:01 AM PDT by NoControllingLegalAuthority
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To: TheSpottedOwl
They are one person during the courting process, then they get the ring on your finger, and you see the real person. If you're young, it's difficult to spot them in time.

I had some mighty big blinders when I married my first wife. She was young (17) and I was her 3rd husband. I found this out when applying for the license – but by then it was too late. We had a great relationship before we married.
On the morning after she woke me up, pointed at the certificate on the wall and said, “Now you can’t leave me.” The marriage lasted 6 months.
43 posted on 09/18/2005 5:37:30 AM PDT by R. Scott (Humanity i love you because when you're hard up you pawn your Intelligence to buy a drink.)
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To: TheSpottedOwl
Look...... some people have entered a marriage on good footing, or good motives, however ? NONE of US know what's truly in a person's mind or heart, and no matter how many year you may know someone, we really don't.
Only GOD knows what is in a person's mind or heart.
Some devious , dishonest, people can hide their true heart, thoughts, motives, character every well over the course of years and decades, and courtship does not necessarily is going to let you know what that person is all about.
Those who take the institutive in getting a prenup truly want to make the marriage work ( at least for the most part ).
Unfortunately in todays world, someone's word is not enough anymore, and would you enter a muli - BILLION contract with someone or some company just by their word ? without getting legal protection financially or legally ?
In todays world, a Prenup is as prudent and important, as a will.
44 posted on 09/18/2005 5:41:05 AM PDT by Prophet in the wilderness (PSALM 53 : 1 The FOOL hath said in his heart , There is no GOD .)
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To: Arpege92

Yeah,

Being a female around here can be a bit 'fusin' at times. Seems we are bad no matter what we do, say or believe. I just sit back, eat popcorn and occaisionally throw rocks at the gorillas :)


45 posted on 09/18/2005 5:44:22 AM PDT by najida (So, I said to myself -Self, I really think shrimp heads in the flower pots as compost is a bit much!)
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To: Caipirabob
I do mourn the moral and cultural breakdown that has reduced "Holy Matrimony" to a business transaction.

Holy Matrimony? Sounds more like mergers and acquisitions to me.

46 posted on 09/18/2005 5:45:11 AM PDT by Uncle Vlad
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To: DB
I don't think covering your ass is preparing for failure. Being practical has is advantages.

I'm 35, my house is paid for and my son is the beneficiary of my will. That however does not protect that asset from a nasty divorce, should being married not kill me first.

Sure I plan on being careful that my future mate is sincere, and that the relationship is mutual, but assets of a half million are tempting to certain types of people.

47 posted on 09/18/2005 5:50:36 AM PDT by CBF ('' .... behind every blade of grass.'')
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To: NutCrackerBoy

Your opinion to which I mostly agree with fails to point out that the women back in the 40's and 50's did not have the rights and opportunities like we have today.


48 posted on 09/18/2005 5:51:39 AM PDT by Arpege92 ("I am happy, be it yourselves." - Pope John Paul II)
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To: Arpege92



You said it.






49 posted on 09/18/2005 5:53:39 AM PDT by SouthernFreebird
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To: Caipirabob

I wouldn't marry anyone i had to have a pre-nup with. Another thing, I think that the church needs to take back the marriage issue. Let the unbelievers marry who-ever and where-ever. The church should be conducting weddings, as it has historically done, and with historical standards that do not include the things that the unbelievers are willing to call a marriage, ie. pre-nups, possibility for divorce, homosexual relationships, multiple partner relationships, etc.

After a while the "church wedding" will once again become the true wedding, while the "civil" ceremony will be looked at as just what it really is for most... The least path of resistance.


50 posted on 09/18/2005 5:57:50 AM PDT by TrailofTears (."We mock loyalty and are shocked at finding traitors in our midst." CS Lewis)
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