Ask FReeper Xenalyte.
That's her small sword.
Posted on 09/19/2005 3:32:59 PM PDT by blam
September 19, 2005
Notebook: Archeology
Medieval ancestors measured up to our height standards
By Norman Hammond, Archaeology Correspondent
OUR ANCESTORS were as tall as we are, contrary to popular belief. Over the past five millennia the average height of men in Britain has remained stable at about 170cm (5ft 7in), and that of women at 160cm (5ft 3in). We may be surprised at how small the armour worn by the Black Prince or King Henry V was, but such giants on the battlefield were not physically large and were towered over by contemporaries of all classes.
“The enduring myth that people in the past were much shorter than we are today contains a small element of truth,” writes Sebastian Payne, chief scientist at English Heritage, in British Archaeology. “There have been small changes, and average height has increased by an inch or so over the past 50 years,” he says, attributing the increase to better health and nutrition.
The myth seems to stem from such things as low doorways on some medieval houses, and the small suits of clothes and armour in museums. But Dr Payne says that there are plenty of tall doors, and we simply don’t register “normally” sized outfits. “Recruits in 18th and 19th-century military records were considerably below today’s average heights,” he says, but adds: “Recruits are often from poorer families whose average height is less, and were often not fully grown.”
In the abandoned medieval village of Wharram Percy in Yorkshire, the churchyard has yielded hundreds of skeletons for analysis. There “ten-year-olds were around 8in shorter than children today: by the time they were fully grown they were nearly as tall as modern adults”.
A study by Charlotte Roberts and Margaret Cox, drawing together evidence of stature from skeletons across the country, shows that adult heights in both sexes have remained constant since the Neolithic era.
British Archaeology No 84: 51
GGG Ping.
"the average height of men in Britain ....5ft 7in"
I think the warm beer is stunting their growth
bttt....from a 5'7" guy myself. :)
Wow, I feel like a giant at 5' 8".
{;o)~
Me too, at 5'9"!
Most Armor that survived the medieval era would have had to been well taken care of, I.e. Most likely ceremonial and as such smaller then the norm for most armor of it's time. Ceremonial armor tends to be smaller because of cost.
I have trouble buying this. I know far too many of the baby boom generation that are significantly taller than their parents of the WW-II generation, and far too few who are shorter, to believe this completely. (including my brother an I, only one "blood" uncle is about our height, the other earlier generation relatives are shorter) The baby boom also marks the transition from most people living on farms, to most people living in towns or cities with all the changes that brought. I also see the effect in first generation Americans, of most all ethnic groups, the kids are taller than the parents.
Maybe the effect didn't occur in England? Maybe the effect didn't occur in Jolly Olde, or happened much earlier, and they are just short.
Wow, 5'7 is the average? I'm 6'6 and I generally think of guys under 6 ft as being overly short.
When the fight starts remember that I'm on your side.
I think it's wishful thinking on the part of the author.
Notice this so-called study was done by women? Do they have a bias? LOL
But seriously, go to any museum and see the outfits people wore in history and try making the same claim. Were this true, short shorts made their appearance eons ago, and some outfits would have been like thongs on the wearer.
"I think the warm beer is stunting their growth"
Do you know why the English drink warm beer?
Because George Lucas also made refrigerators.
Ask FReeper Xenalyte.
That's her small sword.
Nown to his subjects as Edward Longshanks.
I drink cold beer; 6'3".
lol. See?! I think there's something to this theory. ;~ )
I think it is because of the queen, and they should just stop listening to Elton.
So, this here sword will only reach to your neck.
Well, I think it's best to stay away from a sentence that has "queen" & "Elton" in it.
Which sword? Are you currently wielding a sword?
It's possible that those surviving to adulthood, and therefore reaching their "full height," were the best-nourished and therefore tallest of the population. This would be consistent with the much shorter height on pre-adolescents, compared to today: they were malnourished, they didn't grow very tall, then they died young.
Height is very much a function of nutrition. Japan, for example, has been having to re-size many things in their society for the people born in the 80's and later. Even as children, they were so much taller than earlier generations that they needed bigger school desks, among other adjustments.
Or Elton and the term "Bottoms up!".
ping
That too!
Let's hear it for The Prince of Darkness.
What you don't realize about that photo is that, just off to the photographer's left, they've just taken a whole beef sirloin off the barbecue.
I've read that the height requirement for a Roman legionarie was 5'10".
I supposed the guy wearing the armor for ceremonial kind of stooped over for ceremony and stood tall for war.
That would be a Japanese blade?
5'8" is a fine height for a man! I'm 5'8", and so is my idol, Maxwell Smart.
Yeah, my little brother is 6'2" and my oldest son is also 6'2".
I think I was weaned too early.
"If you have a dead ten year old and a dead adult, how can you claim the ten year old will become a "normal" size?"
Excellent point.
Darwin wrote about the mercenaries in the civil war from Europe whose uniforms had to be shortened from the stock used by the regular forces; what has GB to do with the modern world?
Suppose I should have explained better. Full suits of armor that were actually used during Medieval times has long since rusted or been destroyed in battle. Most Ceremonial armor is very heavily decorated,after all it is a show piece, and would not last 2 seconds in an actual battle(very thin metal because of the decorations.
These ceremonial suits were never actually fitted for anyone, but instead were made to make the Lord of the manor look good. A good comparison would be someone with lots of money who flaunts it by putting expensive furniture in their home for the purpose of "Showing off".
You are correct.
It sure seems like the average guy in America is taller than 5'7". Although 5'7" is half a foot taller than me.
Overly short? Damn, I'm no where near 6'. You probably think I'm handicapped or something equally silly.
Just a possibility. I've seen the uniforms of Audie Murphy, from World War II, and Confederate General Wheeler. They were both about the size of my 14-year-old daughter, about 5'2", maybe 110 pounds soaking wet.
There was a fluff in the filmmaking community when the recent movie of "Cold Mountain" used Romanian Army reservists as Civil War extras, but the producers pointed out that American reenactors are almost all too big, too old, too clean, and have too many teeth to be anything like realistic :-).
I had a good laugh when I went through Windsor Castle and saw the armor made for Henry VIII’s portly size.
I don’t recall Henry leading his troops into battle so the armor was no doubt ceremonial. Like Clinton, he was too busy with the ladies to bother about war.
Keep in mind the clothing most likely to survive to be in a museum was clothing the heirs had no use for. If the clothes fit others it would have been worn until it was worn out. Smaller clothes might have had a better chance, statistically, to survive. Just a thought
Have you ever been to Korea? You'd be a freak over there. I remember riding a bus there once and I felt like I was a NBA star.....and I'm only 5-11.
I'd question that figure. The requirement to be Roman Cavalry was 5'8", so legionaires would have a considerably lesser requirement.
Well, there is tallness on both sides of my family...my dad was the short guy at 5'10"...my brother was 6'7"...my mothers brother was 6'2"...my mom herself was 5'8"...all my male cousins on both my mom and my dads side were at least 6' tall...I am the short lady, being only 5'6"
So I was always used to being around tall men, and would not even date a guy shorter than 6'...luckily for me, my hubby is 6'2"....our older boy died after just turning 15, from leukemia, but by then he was already 5'11"...my younger boy is 6'5"
What I find unusual is my hubbys family...they are all from Sicily...I had always thought that Sicilian and Italian men were short, but not in my hubbys family...his dad, and all his uncles are over 6'...even the old grandfather was over 6' tall...
I like em tall...
Gads, I didn’t realize that Audie Murphy and General Wheeler were so short. Audie Murphy looked short, but I didn’t know HOW short. No wonder the Germans couldn’t zero in on him and shoot him. He was a mere speck in the distance.
Thank you about that information on the movie "Cold Mountain" and why Romanians were used. I found that interesting. And yes, the Romanians don’t have good dental care as well as other folks in that area of the world.
Ahem.
But that is the average height of kids so unhealthy--and so likely stunted--as to die at ten.
Um, weren't the great majority of people poor?
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