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The Problem With Evolution
ChronWatch ^ | 09/25/05 | Edward L. Daley

Posted on 09/26/2005 5:44:09 AM PDT by DARCPRYNCE

Charles Darwin, the 19th century geologist who wrote the treatise 'The Origin of Species, by means of Natural Selection' defined evolution as "descent with modification". Darwin hypothesized that all forms of life descended from a common ancestor, branching out over time into various unique life forms, due primarily to a process called natural selection.

However, the fossil record shows that all of the major animal groups (phyla) appeared fully formed about 540 million years ago, and virtually no transitional life forms have been discovered which suggest that they evolved from earlier forms. This sudden eruption of multiple, complex organisms is often referred to as the Cambrian Explosion, and even Darwin knew about the lack of evidence in the fossil record to support his theory a century and a half ago.

(Excerpt) Read more at chronwatch.com ...


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To: Wicket

Perhaps it is more likely that noone believed him because he had no evidence - you said yourself he couldn't propose where the water came from.

Geologists don't assume that the earth forms by a gradual process only. Gradual is the overall theme, but it incorperates local catastrophic events along the way.


201 posted on 09/26/2005 4:00:33 PM PDT by bobdsmith
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To: bobdsmith

Why rely upon logic when a big fat conspiracy theory will do just as well?


202 posted on 09/26/2005 4:07:16 PM PDT by Mylo ( scientific discovery is also an occasion of worship.)
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To: Mamzelle
The other day I was watching the hummingbirds after the cardinal flowers. The blur of the wings, the angling balance of the tail, the hovering, the fearlessness of humans, moving backwards and downwards like a helicopter...no other bird can do these things. No other bird is so small, or burns so much fuel. So, where's the "in between " bird and hummingbird--? For such differences to emerge, you'd need several "missing links."

Sure and not all missing links will be found. Fossils are rare. Bird fossils are especially rare. But there is recent evidence of hummingbird characteristics in non-hummingbirds in the fossil record:

It's this logical problem that I don't hear addressed, or the question I always ask - how do you evolve an immune system while you're busy trying to evolve a beating heart? And eyes, and the skin...the computer-hormone chemical system that makes an organism's organs all "talk" to one another?

I don't see the problem with different organs evolving in parallel. What would stop eyes evolving at the same time as the heart?

And don't you always need a Mrs. to go with your newly-evolved Mr. Species?

Not if Mr can reproduce asexually.

Why hasn't centuries of breeding livestock, in geographic isolation, not produced a new species of something? If it happens so readily by accident, why can't it be reproduced on purpose?

Why would speciation be more likely to occur in captivity than in the wild? I think the answer is that speciation of animals generally takes a lot of time.

203 posted on 09/26/2005 4:57:39 PM PDT by bobdsmith
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To: bobdsmith
re: Not if Mr can reproduce asexually.)))

LOL! What a silly remark. Obviously the most interesting, complex, and diversified mammals reproduce sexually, and the theory of evolution and speciation is supposed to account for the existence of sexually-reproducing organisms.

IOW---speak for yourself, Mr. ....

My hummingbird was just an example of the problem of "in betweens"--the most obvious "in between" difficulty is mankind.

re: I don't see the problem with different organs evolving in parallel. What would stop eyes evolving at the same time as the heart?)))

The organism would choke and die while trying on contact lenses. Continually silly...

re: Why would speciation be more likely to occur in captivity than in the wild? I think the answer is that speciation of animals generally takes a lot of time.)))

Evos claim that speciation occurs in the wild. If speciation occurs by accident, it ought to be able to be duplicated on purpose. As for time, domesticated animals have been bred to specfication for thousands of years on separate continents. That is, a laboratory of significant history. You'd think, under ideal conditions, that at least one accident would have happened.

Not enough time, eh? Well, that's the stock answer. Billions and billions of years and it'll happen. All these fortuitious accidents in perfect fortuitous order, and not only that....but parallel fortuitous accidents (the lens of the eye) happening with perfect fortuitous cooperation (the circulatory system)...

It's just too absurd for words.

204 posted on 09/26/2005 7:06:07 PM PDT by Mamzelle
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To: Mamzelle
It happens all the time. New species are discovered every day, and new speciation events have been seen in nature and in the lab. They are most commonly seen in plants.
205 posted on 09/26/2005 7:19:36 PM PDT by Mylo ( scientific discovery is also an occasion of worship.)
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To: DARCPRYNCE
ID does not disregard the fossil evidence. In fact, it explains it better than Evolution does.

Say WHAT?!? Please support this amazing statement. We'll wait.

Which are no different, fundamentally, than the evolution story, which is just as unsupported by the facts.

ROFL! Okay, feel free to support *this* one was well. How did you ever arrive at the ludicrous conclusion that evolution is "just as unsupported by the facts"?

Be sure to explain how, exactly, the massive DNA evidence for evolution (along dozens of independently confirming lines) is, you allege, not actually support for evolution. This should be really amusing.

Yet, the physical evidence does not support the theory that life came about completely by random chance, out of lifeless chemicals, and then evolved into many different organisms.

...because...? Funny, it sure *looks* that way to the people who are most intimately acquainted with the physical evidence -- over 99% of biologists accept the validity of evolution, based on the evidence.

Are you sure you know what in the hell you're talking about?

Furthermore, just because science cannot prove the existence of a creator doesn't mean that one doesn't exist. It simply means that human beings have limited abilities to discover the nature of life.

Exactly so, just as the fact that science cannot prove the existence of unicorns doesn't mean that one doesn't exist.

206 posted on 09/26/2005 7:27:46 PM PDT by Ichneumon
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To: DARCPRYNCE
However, the fossil record shows that all of the major animal groups (phyla) appeared fully formed about 540 million years ago

Wow, what a bald-faced lie. Birds are a "major animal group", and they didn't appear before 150 million years ago. Nor did they appear "fully formed" at that time.

Are you sure you know what in the hell you're talking about?

And no, dishonestly calling phylum-level taxa "the major animal groups" doesn't fix your lie either, because first, they are not equivalent as you dishonestly (cluelessly?) claim, and second, they hardly appeared "fully formed". Compared to today's "major animal groups", they appear extremely "incompletely formed" -- the earliest vertebrates appear not as cats or crocodiles or birds, they appear as a primitive chordate which most resembles a finned worm. Say hello to your distant ancestor:

That's hardly a "fully formed" mammal, bird, reptile, or fish, now, is it?

Again, I really must ask: Are you sure you know what in the hell you're talking about? Or are you just knowingly lying?

207 posted on 09/26/2005 7:41:48 PM PDT by Ichneumon
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To: Mylo
How many people were murdered by government leaders convinced of the truth of evoultion, and thus that there was no God? In excess of 135 million in the 2oth century alone: Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot, etc.

Democide

208 posted on 09/26/2005 7:49:28 PM PDT by LiteKeeper (The radical secularization of America is happening)
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To: Mamzelle
It's just too absurd for words.

The only thing absurd is your multiple misunderstandings and misrepresentations of evolutionary biology. Perhaps you might want to *learn* something about the topic before you attempt to critique it again.

For just one example, you write:

Evos claim that speciation occurs in the wild. If speciation occurs by accident, it ought to be able to be duplicated on purpose. As for time, domesticated animals have been bred to specfication for thousands of years on separate continents. That is, a laboratory of significant history. You'd think, under ideal conditions, that at least one accident would have happened. Not enough time, eh? Well, that's the stock answer. Billions and billions of years and it'll happen.
Um, gee, Einstein, you mean like the way that mankind has created countless new species of domestic plants and animals from their wild ancestral species? Please engage brain before posting next time.

Here's another "too absurd for words" argument from your post:

and not only that....but parallel fortuitous accidents (the lens of the eye) happening with perfect fortuitous cooperation (the circulatory system)...
Lenses evolved before the circulatory system, and did so just fine, thank you. By what failure of understanding did you arrive at the erroneous conclusion that they had to be "perfectly fortuitous" together?

Or were you incoherently trying to say that the lens had to "perfectly fortuitously" arise at the exact same instant as the eye, and that the modern vertebrate circulatory system could only successfully arise "all at once" or not at all? Wrong *AGAIN*, as anyone who has ever bothered to *learn* a tiny bit about biology before they spouted off about it would already know, which of course leaves out the great majority of the anti-evolutionary creationists...

209 posted on 09/26/2005 7:51:57 PM PDT by Ichneumon
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To: Mamzelle
The other day I was watching the hummingbirds after the cardinal flowers. The blur of the wings, the angling balance of the tail, the hovering, the fearlessness of humans, moving backwards and downwards like a helicopter...no other bird can do these things. No other bird is so small, or burns so much fuel. So, where's the "in between " bird and hummingbird--? For such differences to emerge, you'd need several "missing links."

There are no hummingbirds in Hawai'i. There are, in fact, very few kinds of bird; there is however one subfamily, called the honeycreepers, which arrived there maybe 10 million years ago, and had very little competition, so they diversified. And the honeycreepers, although they are finches, evolved a bird called the I'iwi. It's small, brightly colored, and very pugnacious, just like a hummingbird. He feeds from flowers, hovers, and has a long down-curved bill, just like a hummingbird. Yet, genetically, he's clearly a finch.

There are other honeycreepers that look and act like ordinary finches; others that look and act like woodpeckers. They're an entire family of missing links.

But if you're really interested in hummingbird evolution, this is about fossil hummingbirds.

It's this logical problem that I don't hear addressed, or the question I always ask--how do you evolve an immune system while you're busy trying to evolve a beating heart?

Why one and and then the other?

210 posted on 09/26/2005 8:23:32 PM PDT by Right Wing Professor (Why is FR censoring mainstream science?)
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To: Mamzelle
When attempting to understand evolution and evolutionists, I get very hung up on the "betweens" that do not exist in nature (or the fossil record, as far as I know.)

I've highlighted the key phrase in your above statement...

It's also instructive to note that the most popular creationist "missing links" of years gone by have all actually been subsequently found (whales with legs, snakes with legs, multiple intermediate stages of bird evolution, etc.) If you're still "hung up on" the few cases you can desperately grasp for which haven't yet been found, instead of getting a clue from the many that *have* been found in accordance with the predictions of evolutionary biology (and in violation of the predictions of the *creationists*), well, that's *your* personal problem.

The other day I was watching the hummingbirds after the cardinal flowers. The blur of the wings, the angling balance of the tail, the hovering, the fearlessness of humans, moving backwards and downwards like a helicopter...no other bird can do these things. No other bird is so small, or burns so much fuel. So, where's the "in between " bird and hummingbird--? For such differences to emerge, you'd need several "missing links."

And there are. Happy now? Or will you just blythley blow that one off and then grasp for *another* possible "gap" you can cling to?

It's this logical problem that I don't hear addressed, or the question I always ask--how do you evolve an immune system while you're busy trying to evolve a beating heart?

By evolving one before the other. Many organisms survive just fine with one and not the other. Where did you get the erroneous impression that they are somehow "required" to both be present for survival?

And eyes, and the skin...

See above. Same answer. Try to learn some biology before you attempt to critique it.

the computer-hormone chemical system that makes an organism's organs all "talk" to one another?

One stage at a time, of course. Evolution proceeds by building on what came before. Your lack of imagination is not a restriction upon nature's possibilities.

And don't you always need a Mrs. to go with your newly-evolved Mr. Species?

Sigh... You have not one, but *two* extremely elementary misconceptions in your question.

First, *populations* evolve, not individuals.

Second, "newly evolved species" do not arise *poof* in one generation. They are the result of multiple mutations accumulating in a population across *many* generations, until eventually the whole breeding population has acquired the new set of mutations. Any one of the mutations individually is neither large enough to "make" a new species by itself, nor create a barrier to interbreeding.

This is Evolutionary Biology 101. Go buy a book or something.

Why hasn't centuries of breeding livestock, in geographic isolation, not produced a new species of something?

It has.

If it happens so readily by accident, why can't it be reproduced on purpose?

It has.

I did study some biology, and believe that it is really impossible to study life without using the "tree of life" theory as a paradigm to illustrate the interrelatedness of organisms.

Apparently *not*, since you seem to misunderstand the subject so badly, and can't even get the most basic things about it correct.

And the "scientists" themselves use language dogmatic, patronizing and unscientific.

...only in response to know-nothings who attempt to "lecture" the scientists about their own field of study, and "disprove" it using stuff from clueless creationist tracts instead of actual knowledge of the subject. Know anyone like that?

Hmm, you're sounding pretty "dogmatic, patronizing and unscientific" yourself.

They don't speak in terms of "best reasonable explanation"--

Yes, they do.

but insist that you believe--

Horse manure. Feel free to believe any silly thing you want. What *will* get a scientist pretty testy, however, is when people who really haven't any clue what in the hell they're talking about attempt to "disprove" evolutionary biology loudly and stridently, and spread complete falsehoods about the subject, and try to use the courts to force psuedoscience into classrooms, and...

Look, believe what you want, but when someone spouts lies or disinformation -- about evolution or any other subject -- they should rightly expect to get slammed for it.

211 posted on 09/26/2005 8:29:40 PM PDT by Ichneumon
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To: bobdsmith
And don't you always need a Mrs. to go with your newly-evolved Mr. Species?

Not if Mr can reproduce asexually.

Incomplete answer. Evolution is a phenomenon of populations, not individuals. There is never a first member of a new species looking for a mate,

212 posted on 09/26/2005 8:33:15 PM PDT by js1138 (Great is the power of steady misrepresentation.)
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To: LiteKeeper
How many people were murdered by government leaders convinced of the truth of evoultion, and thus that there was no God? In excess of 135 million in the 2oth century alone: Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot, etc.

We were convinced that the people needs and requires this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out.

-Adolf Hitler, in a speech in Berlin on 24 Oct. 1933

213 posted on 09/26/2005 8:42:20 PM PDT by Right Wing Professor (Why is FR censoring mainstream science?)
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To: LiteKeeper; Mylo
How many people were murdered by government leaders convinced of the truth of evoultion, and thus that there was no God? In excess of 135 million in the 2oth century alone: Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot, etc.

First, it's completely and obviously false to claim that being "convinced of the truth of evolution" is "thus" to believe that "there is no God". And as I recall, you've already been informed of this before, and it has been pointed out to you that the obvious falseness of this idiotic claim is made clear by the fact that the *majority* of Americans who are "convinced of the truth of evolution" are actually *Christians*.

So please explain your continued use of false claims. Isn't bearing false witness one of the Ten Commandments?

Second, I hate to be the one to have to intrude upon your fantasy with inconvenient facts, but in actuality Hitler leaned on *God* as support for his "ethnic cleansing":

"I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.."
-- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf
Hitler's own handwritten notes, drawing an outline of his philosophy:

Hitler divided his study into five sections:

1. The Bible
2. The Aryan
3. His Works
4. The Jew
5. His Work
Under the first section, "The Bible -- Monumental History of Mankind", he lists these topics (among others): "2 human types-- Workers and drones-- Builders and destroyers", "Race Law", "First people's history (based on) the race law-- Eternal course of History".

So it seems that Hitler was actually basing his racial view of mankind on *Biblical* foundations.

Nazi SS belt buckle, with motto "Gott mit uns [God is with us]":

Nazi propaganda paper:

The headline reads, "Declaration of the Higher Clergy/So spoke Jesus Christ". The caption under the cartoon of the marching Hitler Youth reads, "We youth step happily forward facing the sun... With our faith we drive the devil from the land." And as for the communists you mention, if evolution was supposedly the foundation of communism, then I guess Marx had a time machine: Darwin's book on evolution ("Origin of Species"): 1859. Marx's book on communism ("Communist Manifesto"): 1848. What's wrong with this picture?

Hint: If Communism is founded on evolution, then how did Marx lay out the blueprint for Communism eleven years *before* Darwin had ever published his eye?

Nice try.

214 posted on 09/26/2005 8:45:53 PM PDT by Ichneumon
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To: Wicket
We may have just a bit of that kind of groupthink going on these days, whatcha think?

I think you're unaware of the vast mountains of evidence which support evolutionary biology, in dozens of independently cross-confirming ways, and thus all you're left with is imagining that it's just a popular notion that hasn't already been validated and revalidated countless thousands of times.

215 posted on 09/26/2005 8:49:18 PM PDT by Ichneumon
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To: doc30

First, Josephus discusses a man that was referred to as the Christ by his followers on multiple occassions. First, in The Antiquities he describes how the high priest Ananias took advantage of the Roman governor Festus- who is also referred in the New Testament- in order to have James killed. His exact words were, "He convened a meeting of the Sanhedrin and brought before them a man named James, the brother of Jesus, who was called the Christ, and certain others...and delivered them up to be stoned."

He also wrote in the "Testimonium Flavianum", "About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he was one who wrought surprising feats and was a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many of the Jews and many of the Greeks. He was the Christ. When Pilate, upon hearing him accused by men of the highest standing amaong us, had condemned him to be crucified, those who had in the first place come to lovehim, did not give up their affection for him. On the third day he returned to them restored to life, for the prophets of God had prophesied these and other marvelous things about him. And the tribe of Christians, so called after him, has still to this day not disappeared."

Other accepted historians (Tacitus and Pliny the Younger to name a couple) also refer to Christianity quite explicitly, feel free to do the research.

The reality is that the bible itself is an unarguable historical document as of yet to be proven innaccurate. Many archeologists follow it with great success. There is no body of ancient literature in the world which enjoys such a wealth of good textual attestation as the New Testament.

There is no srgument from any well educated individual as to whther Christ lived, the point of contention is, was Jesus who he claimed to be? I ask you, does it make any sense that so many thousands, so close to his time would have died the horrible tortures, stonings, or crucifictions all in the name of a lie. A few, maybe even a few hundred, but not the thousands that did.

Whether Jews, Muslim, or Christian, most all refer to Jesus, if not as Christ as a great prophet. My argument to you would be that he either was God or he was a complete wack job. He would not then be a prophet, he would be a fraud.

I pray that you may soon see the truth.


216 posted on 09/26/2005 8:55:55 PM PDT by AZConcervative
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To: Mamzelle; metmom; bobdsmith; Right Wing Professor; js1138; Mylo; DARCPRYNCE; PatrickHenry
And don't you always need a Mrs. to go with your newly-evolved Mr. Species?

Oh, what the heck... As elementary as this misconception is, it's practically universal among creationists (who are the experts at "elementary misconceptions", at least when it comes to the biology they're ill-equipped to attack), so it seems now might be a good time to repost a few of my prior posts explaining how new species *actually* arise in evolutionary biology (instead of in the creationist cartoon-version).

I know evolutionists believe that the changes occurred gradually. My point was at some point man was fully man. Unless every single creature gained that full manness at the same time, he was mating with something that would have been less (even if it only slightly less) human than he was.

Okay, let's see if I can explain it this way...

First, part of your confusion (in this, and in a lot of other topics in this thread) comes from your insistence on declaring that things must be 100% A or 100% B. The living world is not so black and white. The range of living things is a continuum more often than it's either/or. And not just across time, either -- several people have asked you to ponder the existence of "ring species", but I haven't seen you tackle it yet.

Furthermore, creationists often fail to appreciate the significance of the "nested hierarchies" of living things. It's as incorrect to say that a specific creature must be *either* a human *or* an ape as it is to say that a creature must be *either* a lion *or* a cat. Ponder that one for a moment, and then you'll be ready to understand the point of the essay You Are an Ape. Please read it.

Finally, even if you cling to the view that there's some "required" combination of genetic differences which, as soon as they're acquired, turn a "mere ape" into a "human", *bang*, that still doesn't make the evolution of one into the other a problem, or create any "breeding impossibilities". Here's how it works...

First, keep in mind that even if the "special" combination of genes which make primate DNA be considered human DNA has to all be present before *you'd* finally agree to label the resulting organism "finally human", a creature with only, say, 99% of those genes would still look pretty darned human and not so "classicly" apelike, since it would consist of 99% of the things that "separate" humans from apes. It'd only be missing one little thing out of the full set, so only one part of it would still be "apish" -- for example maybe it'd have more of a protruding brow than most people but all other human characterstics.

The other thing to keep in mind is that any one (or five, or fifty, or...) genetic differences is usually not enough to prevent interbreeding. The genetic differences just "mix and match" in members of the popuation, in the same way that both the blue-eyed gene and the brown-eyed gene swirl through human populations without any big deal.

So now that you've got some of the background, the way in which an "ape" population would evolve into a "human" population is straightforward. At some time a mutation X1 appears in the birth of a member of the population which offers some small advantage by virtue of being a small improvement (which in this example happens to bring the individual slightly closer to the advantages of being "humanlike"). The change is likely to be barely noticeable to those around him, perhaps he stands just slightly more upright, or has a slightly larger brain, or his hands are just a bit more talented, or he can voice a slightly wider range of sounds -- whatever. It's due to a small DNA change within him which just happens, by luck, to make a biochemical improvement to a particular protein in his body in a way that makes some function in his body perform just a touch better than was possible without the change. So, unlike many other mutations in the population, which made no difference, or the ones which caused damage to the functioning of the affected individual and got weeded out by natural selection, the individual who was lucky enough to receive X1 does a little better than the others in his species, and passes on his new X1 gene when he has children.

But wait, you ask, he's a "mutant", wouldn't that prevent him from mating with all the rest of the population since they don't have X1? No, it wouldn't, any more than your brown-eyed gene would prevent you from having children with a blue-eyed man. The "owner" of X1 mates with a woman who has the original form of the gene, call it Q1. Due to ordinary genetics, each of their children will have 2 X1's, or 2 Q1's, or 1 X1 and 1 Q1, by random chance. But because X1 gives a survival boost, more of the children who drew X1's from the genetic deck will have their own children than those who missed out. And so on and so on across generations, causing X1 to become more and more prevalent in the population than the competing "obsolete" Q1. Statistically, eventually X1 will "fix" in the population by virtue of being the only variety of that gene existing in the population, the Q1's having gone extinct when the last few individuals who still had a Q1 either didn't manage to have children, or had children but their children drew X1's from their parents genetic "deck".

So now the whole population is made of individuals with X1 genes and no Q1 genes.

Repeat this process for X2, another gene change which is a step along the road from "apeness" to "humanness". Then for X3, and X4, and... Finally, at some point the population will have genes X1 through X(N-1) out of the N genes which you believe are required to make them "fully human". They already look and behave pretty much entirely human, since they have almost every genetic feature which makes a species human, but you're still unwilling to declare them human because they're missing X(N), the last gene of the set. Okay, fine -- repeat the process I described above about X1 to gene mutation X(N). The first individual which gets that mutation is now "fully human" in your book. Hooray for him. However, he really isn't noticeably different from the other members of his species, since he only varies from them by a single genetic difference. So other than being the guy (or girl) who loses that last tiny remnant of "apeness" which is barely even noticeable in the population (maybe jaws on average protrude just 3% more than his or his offspring will), he has no problem having children with the mate of his choice, because they only differ by a single mutation. And eventually his X(N) gene spreads through the population over the next fifty generations until the old-style Q(N) gene gets replaced by it, and all of his kind are now 100% human instead of 99.9% human as they had been before the X(N) mutation.

And note that all the above is *standard* population genetics, *extremely* well established as ordinary processes which occur all the time in nature. It's not just an "imagine if" story.

Also note that I've simplified it somewhat by implying that, for example, mutation X46 wouldn't happen until mutation X45 had finished "fixing" in the population. Instead, it's just as easy for it to occur and be spreading into the population *while* X45 is in the process of doing so as well, for example. But this just makes the process even *more* likely, not less. There are always multiple sets of alleles floating around in populations without ill effect -- if there weren't we'd all be identical and homozygous clones.

Frankly, though, I don't think we're fully human *yet* -- if nothing else, we really need to get rid of the ape genes we still carry that cause these damned wisdom teeth which fit nicely and were useful in the longer ape jaw but just get jammed up and cause health problems in the rear of our smaller more human jaw. It looks as if we're still waiting for X(N) and haven't quite gotten the "full human" transformation finished just yet...

And:

Oh my, where to start... At the top, I suppose. You start with, "The definition of a species is that it can't reproduce with anything outside the species." No, this is incorrect. While it's true that if two groups *can't* interbreed, they are necessarily separate species, the converse is not true. Groups that can interbreed to some degree can still be separate species. Consider lions and tigers, for example. A better definition is that species are groups that *don't* interbreed to any large degree. A more technical way to put it is that they are independent breeding populations. But there are exceptions and gray areas -- this is because nature itself does not recognize the "species" concept. It's a manmade label applied for convenience and utility to certain groups. If Darwin was right, there should not be clear-cut distinctions between groups as they are in the process of diverging evolutionarily. And indeed, this is exactly what we find, which is why there's no "one definition fits all situations" meaning for "species". Groups like "ring species" throw a monkeywrench into any "nice and neat" definition of "species" that humans might care to try to formulate, for example. Nature is nowhere near that tidy.

But even leaving that aside, your idea about how a population can split into two distinct species (even by your definition) is a wildly incorrect misconception about how it actually works.

You have two major misconceptions and wrapped them around each other.

The first is that species formation involves a sudden "freak" with a massive mutation that occurs in a single individual in one generation. Nope, wrong. This is widely snickered at in the biological community as the "hopeful monster" scenario. But it's not how evolution proceeds.

Your second misconception is that having a different number of chromosomes would prevent successful mating. It doesn't. Or at least it needn't, depending on the nature of the difference, and there are many known cases where it doesn't. For example, the Przewalski horse, which has 33 chromosomes, and the domestic horse, with 32 chromosomes (due to a fusion), are able to mate and produce fertile offspring.

A third misconception, a combination of your first two, is that speciation requires anything like an "extra" chromosome. It doesn't.

What actually happens (or at least in most cases -- as in my earlier discussion of the definition of "species", nature is flexible and abounds with variations, and refuses to follow any one "script" in every single case) is that accumulated small changes in a population diverge if from a parent population.

Note for example that there is no one "big mutation" separating humans from our nearest extant cousins, the chimps. There are *thousands* of genetic differences, as one would expect after five million years of divergent evolution between the two groups. Heck, there are hundreds of genetic differences between *human* groups, and we share common ancestors a lot more recently.

[Sidebar: However, the nature of any one specific difference considered by itself is minor and of the type one would expect to be produced by evolution. There are no portions of the human -- or chimp -- genome which are so different that they seem "completely rewritten", or "written fresh on the drawing table" when compared with the other group. Both the human genome and the chimp genome have been completely sequenced and are available on several online databases. I challenge any creationist to compare any portions of the two and look for any difference between them which are "unique", or are major minor variations from the other to be of the sort -- in both amount and kind -- which one would not statistically expect to result merely from five million years of evolutionary "drift". Good luck! None have been found so far by anyone, but hey, maybe you could be the first.]

One genetic mutation does not a new species make (again, usually). Often *hundreds* are not enough, as proven by the many genetic differences occurring even within human populations.

Instead, it takes *many*, *many* accumulated mutational differences to separate one population from another to a degree large enough to warrant describing the two as different species, and/or to interfere significantly with their ability/willingness to reliably interbreed.

So the answer to your question is simple: Speciation does not occur in a single generation by one mother suddently giving birth, *poof*, to an offspring so mutated that it's a "new species" from its mother, and unable to interbreed with the rest of its (sort of) kind. Instead, subpopulations of a larger population (often separated by distance, geography, or other barriers) each accumulate genetic differences apart from each other as new mutations accumulate separately in each subpopulation, each mutationoccurring originally in a single individual then spreading through the subpopulation in succeeding generations (while detrimental mutations get constantly weeded out by natural select, and beneficial mutations get "amplifed" by it), until eventually the two populations are different enough from each other in their overall genetic makeup so that morphologically they are obviously different "subtypes" of creatures even to the unaided eye, and no longer reliably interbreed with each other.

And yes, there are countless field studies and genetic studies and all sorts of other studies which have established the reality of this, it's not just a hypothetical scenario.

And:
I'm no expert (this will become obvious momentarily) so I've always been puzzled about one thing. At a certain point a mother gives birth to a child with a different genetic code, right? Fine, but let's say the child is a female. My question is; where does the male come from with the same genetic code to propagate this new species? Or is it a horse + donkey = mule type of thing where the species are similar enough to carry on. My ignorance on this is great so I would appreciate any answers you could provide?

You're asking the wrong person, allow me...

The answer is that it's not a matter of having "same" or "different" genetic code. Every human being has a different, unique genetic code (that's why DNA matching works in criminal cases). But obviously we can still interbreed.

No "exact match" of DNA is required to interbreed, just "close enough".

And the short answer to your question (there are all sorts of fascinating complicating details) is that when a population (usually, an isolated *subpopulation*) of species X is evolving towards becoming species Y, the amount of genetic change per generation is small enough that each member of the population can continue to interbreed with the rest of the population, even if it has a mutation that hasn't yet spread to the rest of the population.

Over several generations its novel mutation does spread through the population and becomes ubiquitous in the population, and thus when the next novel mutation pops up in the population, everyone's already on the same "page" with respect to the last one, and the new mutation is no more hindrance to interbreeding than the last one originally was.

Rinse, repeat, etc.

Eventually number of novel mutations in the population becomes so large that even though the population itself can still interbreed (because they all "evolved together" into species Y through genetic exchange), the population is "enough different" DNA-wise that it will no longer be able to interbreed with members of the *original* population of species X it split off from (which itself may be relatively unchanged, or evolved off in a different direction itself).

This is how one species splits into two (or more), each "daughter" species unable to mate with its "sister" species, yet always able to breed with itself at every stage along the way.

Look back a few posts for a discussion of "ring species", whereby each subgroup along a "ring" around a mountain or whatever is still able to interbreed with its "neighbor" subgroups on the ring, but when the far "arms" of the ring meet each arm has changed enough genetically that they are unable to mate at the point where they "meet up" on the other side of the geographic obstacle. This works in a way similar to my description above -- each subgroup is "not too different" from its neighbors to interbreed, but over the whole extent of the line/ring, the far "ends" have diverged enough from each other to be unable to mate. Same thing, basically.


217 posted on 09/26/2005 9:00:49 PM PDT by Ichneumon
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To: YHAOS
Yeah, that representative republican form of government can be a real bitch, especially if you don't have the majority.

That's why we have the Constitution, to protect us from the tyranny of the mob.

218 posted on 09/26/2005 9:03:18 PM PDT by Right Wing Professor (Why is FR censoring mainstream science?)
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To: Ichneumon

You are so right in fact you are evidence yourself
no feeling thinking entity could have created such a
faithful creature following the edicts of select
group of humanoids blest with knowledge far superior
to any bible thumping pew warmer. You must have congealed from primordial ooze gathering cells and various parts until you now are ,all just chance, sort of tornado in
a junkyardish.


219 posted on 09/26/2005 9:03:33 PM PDT by claptrap (optional tagline under re-consideration)
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To: Right Wing Professor

Why does anyone who is mainstream bother coming here?
Why not postulate your junk science to mind numbed
robots of the leftist communists who desire not God
but are determined to be gods to themselves.
Face it the earth and sky cry out the existence of
God, you and the evo-fools just seek to deny God
the honor and worship only he deserves.
Besides fossil evidence is tripe stalagtites can form in as little time as fourteen years and petrify. So literally
anything could be a fossil.


220 posted on 09/26/2005 9:17:22 PM PDT by claptrap (optional tagline under re-consideration)
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To: AZConcervative
He also wrote in the "Testimonium Flavianum", "About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he was one who wrought surprising feats and was a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many of the Jews and many of the Greeks. He was the Christ. When Pilate, upon hearing him accused by men of the highest standing amaong us, had condemned him to be crucified, those who had in the first place come to lovehim, did not give up their affection for him. On the third day he returned to them restored to life, for the prophets of God had prophesied these and other marvelous things about him. And the tribe of Christians, so called after him, has still to this day not disappeared."

| Unfortunately, that passage was either heavily doctored or outright forged by a later Christian author. No observant Jew, as Josephus was, would have referred to Jesus as the Christ. Furthermore, Origen, a later Christian author, said that Josephus did not believe Jesus was the Christ.

Scholars argue about whether this passage is partially or entirely forged, but almost no one believes it's fully genuine.

221 posted on 09/26/2005 9:18:54 PM PDT by Right Wing Professor (Why is FR censoring mainstream science?)
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To: claptrap
Why does anyone who is mainstream bother coming here?

Good question! With the 'bible-is-a-science-book' crowd clogging the F.R. airwaves, I fully expect the flat-earthers to make an appearance any day. Not much need for actual science around here anymore.

222 posted on 09/26/2005 9:21:42 PM PDT by blowfish
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To: Ichneumon
"I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.." -- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf

Now I know that you know that the Lord was a Jew so what exactly is the point of fighting garbage with garbage?

223 posted on 09/26/2005 9:21:43 PM PDT by jwalsh07 ("Don't get stuck on stupid!" General Honore to twit reporter)
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To: claptrap
Why does anyone who is mainstream bother coming here?

Sometimes I wonder.

Mostly, I think, it's to remind guys like you to take your meds and go to bed, and maybe to tell the nice men in the white coats you might need the dose upped a little.

Oh, and it's not necessary to hit carriage return every line. Browsers wrap text automatically for you. Try it and see!

224 posted on 09/26/2005 9:25:42 PM PDT by Right Wing Professor (Why is FR censoring mainstream science?)
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To: Mylo

Now how many massacres were initiated by differences in Scientific ideology? How many people were burnt at the stake for disagreeing about Science? How many wars were started over Scientific interpretation?


About 100 million were slaughtered in the century dominated by Darwinism. Marx wanted to dedicate Das Kapital to Darwin, but Darwin declined to save himself more controversy. And the wacky race based eugenic theories of the Nazis were tied to some of the evolutionary ideas espoused in Darwin's book, ON THE ORIGIN OF SPECIES BY MEANS OF NATURAL SELECTION, OR THE PRESERVATION OF FAVORED RACES IN THE STRUGGLE OF LIFE .

Of all the forerunners of Hitler in Germany—Hegel, Comte, Nietzsche, Bernhardi and others—the most significant was certainly Ernst Haeckel, the atheistic founder of the Monist League and the most vigorous promoter of both biological Darwinism and social Darwinism in continental Europe in the late-nineteenth and early wentieth centuries.

Almost any 19th or even mid-20th century book on human evolution carries illustrations showing the progression: monkey, ape, Hottentot (or African Negro, Australian Aborigine, Tasmanian, etc.) and white European. Few of the early evolutionists were free of such arrogance, not even the politically liberal Charles Darwin and Thomas Huxley.

"The more civilized so-called Caucasian races have beaten the Turkish hollow in the struggle for existence. Looking to the world at no very distant date, what an endless number of the lower races will have been eliminated by the higher civilized races throughout the world."—*Charles Darwin, Life and Letters, p. 318.

"Biological arguments for racism may have been common before 1859, but they increased by orders of magnitude following the acceptance of evolutionary theory."—*Stephen Jay Gould, Ontogeny and Phylogeny (1977), p. 127.


225 posted on 09/26/2005 9:25:50 PM PDT by razorbak
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To: claptrap
You are so right in fact you are evidence yourself no feeling thinking entity could have created such a faithful creature following the edicts of select group of humanoids blest with knowledge far superior to any bible thumping pew warmer. You must have congealed from primordial ooze gathering cells and various parts until you now are ,all just chance, sort of tornado in a junkyardish.

Did you have an actual argument to make, or actual evidence to present?

Apparently not.

But I see that you've been reading too many creationist tracts and not enough biology textbooks, or else you wouldn't be repeating that old creationist fallacy about a "tornado in a junkyard".

This chestnut is so old that I'll just fling some of my old posts about it at you instead of composing yet another one to a "straw man" fallacy I've seen scores of times before:

Sir Fred Hoyle, a British astronomer famous for research on origins of the universe,

...but a lousy biologist...

"claims that believing the first cell originated by chance is like believing a tornado could sweep through a junkyard filled with airplane parts and form a Boeing 747."

Good old Hoyle and his straw man. First, no biologist believes that "the first cell originated by chance". Hoyle is grossly misstating the actual mechanism(s) by which the first replicator may have arisen, *and* how the first "cell" likely arose (note: The two are *not* the same thing).

Second, a "tornado in a junkyard" is a truly ridiculous analogy for either evolution (it lacks both replication and selection) *or* abiogenesis (a 747 and a junkyard, by their natures, share very little in common with organic systems and chemical environments -- what is highly improbable in junkyards is not nearly so absurd in organic chemistry).

Plus Hoyle believed that insects might be as intelligent as humans, so I'm not sure if he's really all that good a source.

And:

There's a broad range of creationist alleged "disproofs" of evolution which fall into the category best summed up in Hoyle's term, the "tornado in a junkyard".

These are the arguments which try to claim that it would take some insanely long time for [pick some biological structure/process] to come together "by chance". Hoyle's technique, for example, was to picture a tornado going through a junkyard, randomly rearranging the junk there over and over again, and then ask the reader to ponder how long it would take the tornado to randomly assemble a 747. Admittedly, it would most likely never happen at all.

The creationists then claim to have shown how ridiculous it is to believe that evolution could "randomly" produce anything complex, either.

The problem with such analogies, however, is that this is *not* an accurate picture of how evolution works. Yes, evolution does include a component of random change. But that's not the *only* process at work. Random variation (and not-so-random variation) is only one factor at work -- the other two are reproduction and selection. Without all three present, evolution goes nowhere (see below). *With* all three present, evolution can take off and do some very surprising things.

Some of the creationist "tornado in a junkyard" arguments involved the difficulty of randomly producing a particular string of text. This is the "monkeys on typewriters" variation, named after the famous old saying that if you had enough monkeys randomly smacking away on typewriters long enough, you could produce all the works of Shakespeare. True enough, but as the creationists rightly point out, for even a relatively short phrase the amount of time you'd have to wait for the monkeys to get lucky would likely exceed the expected lifespan of the universe itself.

And again, creationists use this to argue that evolutionary formation of something even more complex, say, a housecat is more unlikely than infinity squared.

But again, evolution is *not* just one random rearrangement after another, as are the tornado and the monkey examples.

And:

He said the odds that a cell is formed by chance is equal to the odds that a tornado going through a junkyard would create a working 747 with all instruments working.

Yes he did, and the gross inappropriateness of that analogy to actual evolutionary processes has been explained again and again now. Not that creationists ever learn the lesson...

And:
Yea...toronao through junkyard yields 747..evolution.

The flaws in that grossly invalid analogy have been explained *countless* times. So what's your excuse for still using it?

Hint: Evolutionary processes require three things -- 1) variation, 2) reproduction, 3) selection. Surely even you should be able to identify which TWO of those three are missing entirely from the childish "tornado in a junkyard" example, making it a vastly inappropriate model for evolution.

Sheesh.

I've said it before and I'll say it again -- anti-evolutionists should really learn *something* about evolution, and about science in general, before they attempt to critique it.

The fact that creationists are still using this stupid analogy after all these years indicates that they're highly uneducated at best, and disgustingly disingenuous at worst. Which is it in your case?

And:
If you have a bunch of bricks to build a house and you leave them on the ground the odds of them forming a house by chance are zero. If you drop them by accident or randomly throw them down it won't work either.

And evolution wouldn't work either if it actually resembled your example. But it doesn't.

Unlike these "tornado in a junkyard" attempts to understand (or misrepresent, e.g. Hoyle) evolution, evolution is *not* just repeated random variation. As you correctly realize, that wouldn't "get anywhere" useful.

Instead, evolution is the process which occurs when *three* conditions are in play (if any one or more of them are missing, evolution will not take place):

1. Replication (or "reproduction" if you prefer).

2. Variation (more specifically, inheritable variation).

3. Selection (that is, some process which "weeds out" some variations while "favoring" others). In nature, this generally takes the form of the fact that not all individuals in a population will manage to survive -- or if they do, not all will manage to reproduce -- even then, some will manage to reproduce more often than others. Statistically, the individuals which are better equipped, genetically (e.g. are faster, more cunning, better able to fly, etc.) will have the edge when it comes to surviving and reproducing.

When these three factors are in place (as they are rather inevitably whenever life itself exists), evolution will take place, and will in the long run collect the "better" variations (i.e. mutations) while quickly weeding out the "bad" ones. Over time, vast numbers of useful mutations will accumulate.

This is not just a theoretical assertion -- it can be observed occuring in living things, and also when the process is implemented in computer programs, etc., rapid improvement (including increasing complexity) results.

In short, evolution *works* as a process, even if it may seem counterintuitive at first.

For a quick (albeit admittedly trivial) example of the enormous power of evolutionary processes when compared to "pure" random chance, see this old post of mine.

For more impressive examples, do a Google search on "genetic algorithms", "genetic programming", and "evolutionary computing". For years now people have been harnessing the power of evolutionary processes in order to solve problems that they themselves did not know how to solve (which rules out "intelligent design" as an accidental cause), just by turning evolution loose on it to "search" for a solution. The solutions that evolution comes up with in those cases are often beautiful, highly complex, and "brilliant". In some cases no one can figure out *how* the solution which evolution produced works, because it is too complex or too "unconventional", but work it does.

And:

To randomly create even the simplest life form would be, as some say, like having a tornado go through a junkyard and produce a 747. Not in a billion billion billion years. Forget it, no way, nada, yah right.

If evolutionary processes -- or biological processes in general -- were anything like "a tornado in a junkyard", you might have a valid point. But since they aren't, you don't. Hoyle's goofy "tornado making a 747" analogy was recognized as fatally flawed way back when he made it. What excuse to creationists have for still using it?

Hint: Evolutionary change is the result of the interplay of *three* separate processes. (Extra credit for the creationists: Do you understand even the *basics* of evolution well enough to name them, or are you entirely ignorant of the fundamentals of the field you presume to "lecture" other people about?) Hoyle's cartoonish example models only *one* of them, and leaves out the other two critical components of evolution, and as such is a completely invalid analogy for what evolution can actually do. One has to wonder whether he blew his example out of gross ignorance of biological processes, or through intentional dishonesty, but neither option inspires confidence. The same question arises about the myriad of creationists who repeat his invalid example. For example, what's *your* excuse for presenting such a childishly incorrect argument, which in no way constitutes a valid analogy for evolutionary processes? Are you presenting dishonest sophistry that you *know* is invalid and misleading? Or are you presenting it because you're so ignorant of even the very simplest basics of evolutionary processes that you actually thought that wind through a junkyard was in any way a conceptually accurate model of how evolution actually proceeds?

And:

It's people like this and atheistic fools like you that want us to believe life on his planet evolved by random chance. Believing that is is the equivalent of believing a tornado could sweep across a junkyard an assemble a 747.

No it isn't, because Hoyle's "tornado in a junkyard" analogy is 100% flawed as a model of evolutionary processes. No wonder you're so fond of it. Here, try to learn something.

In short, why don't you anti-evolution folks try to think for yourselves for a change instead of parroting the usual creationist fallacies -- or at least come up with some new material?
226 posted on 09/26/2005 9:26:11 PM PDT by Ichneumon
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To: Right Wing Professor
No observant Jew, as Josephus was, would have referred to Jesus as the Christ.

Excepth Josepuhus was not writing for the Jews, he was writing for the Romans and as such his writings would be informing Romans that Jesus of Nazareth was the Christ to Christians.

Furthermore, Origen, a later Christian author, said that Josephus did not believe Jesus was the Christ.

True, but dispositive of nothing vis a vis the Josephus quote.

227 posted on 09/26/2005 9:31:56 PM PDT by jwalsh07 ("Don't get stuck on stupid!" General Honore to twit reporter)
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To: blowfish

You are right science can account for some things.
Science has yet to devise a method to detect other dimensions or realms of exsistence. So when you die
are you going to take some scientists word that there is
no life after death, and chance coming face to face
with an indignant creator who you have spent your life ignoring because some intelectual in a lab coat said
he couldnt possibly exist? Even the most reckless gambler hedges his bets.


228 posted on 09/26/2005 9:36:02 PM PDT by claptrap (optional tagline under re-consideration)
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To: Right Wing Professor

Actually most Jewish and Christian scholars believe that the passage as a whole is authentic, although there may be some interpolations. For eaxmple, , "He was the Christ...". However, "For he was one who wrought surprising feats and was a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many Greeks." is generally considered authentic. Even without the interpolations the passage corraborates important information about Jesus that he was the martyred leader of the church in Jerusalem and that he was a wise teacher who had established a wise and lasting following, despite the fact that he had been crucified under Pilate at the instigation of some of the Jewish leaders.


229 posted on 09/26/2005 9:39:39 PM PDT by AZConcervative
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To: RoadTest

Bump for later


230 posted on 09/26/2005 9:40:59 PM PDT by Burlem
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To: claptrap
Even the most reckless gambler hedges his bets.

Good idea! Do science in the lab Monday-Friday. Go to church on Sunday. Don't pretend your chemistry book is a morals guide. Don't pretend your bible is a science book. Works for me.

If you want to use your bible as a science book, you have to allow for a variety of hypotheses, including the hypothesis that not all of the bible is literally true. You can make a very persuasive argument for this one!

231 posted on 09/26/2005 9:46:07 PM PDT by blowfish
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To: claptrap
You are right science can account for some things.
Science has yet to devise a method to detect other dimensions or realms of exsistence. So when you die
are you going to take some scientists word that there is
no life after death... ...you have spent your life ignoring because some intelectual in a lab coat said
he couldnt possibly exist? Even the most reckless gambler hedges his bets.


Bravo! Claptrap, Good Point!

OH & BTW you have all the votes to hit carriage return every line when you wish!!

Wolf
232 posted on 09/26/2005 9:50:30 PM PDT by RunningWolf (U.S. Army Veteran.....75-78)
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To: Right Wing Professor

Why "Right Wing Professor" when you sound more like a left wing lackey trotting
quotes from another left winger like Hitler.


233 posted on 09/26/2005 9:53:14 PM PDT by claptrap (optional tagline under re-consideration)
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To: claptrap; Right Wing Professor; blowfish
Why not postulate your junk science to mind numbed robots

...says the guy who thinks that there's a valid scientific argument in his following ramble:

Besides fossil evidence is tripe stalagtites can form in as little time as fourteen years and petrify. So literally anything could be a fossil.

Ooookay...

What can I say -- you're apparently the local expert on "junk science" and MNRs.

But just for fun, perhaps you might want to answer the following questions about your, um, amazing claim.

1. What in the hell is a "stalagtite"?

2. Did you perhaps mean "stalactite" or "stalagmite"?

3. If so, which one?

4. Do you even know the difference?

5. Do you even think it matters whether you know or not before you spout off about geology and what its alleged implications for evolutionary biology might be?

6. Are you aware that the only kind of "fast-growing" stalactites are of the gypsum or concrete/mortar type, and are easily distinguished from the more common calcium carbonate stalactites, which are indeed very slow growing?

7. Are you aware that the creationists who spout the "fast stalactites" garbage are lying to you when they pretend that there's no difference between gypsum stalactites and calcium carbonate stalactites?

8. Do you care that they're lying to you in order to dishonestly propagandize in favor of creationism?

9. Are you somehow under the impression that gypsum or mortar stalactites have anything whatsoever to do with the processes of fossilization?

10. Are you really that enormously ignorant?

11. Are you under the bizarre impression that the speed of fossilization is somehow relevant to the *age* of the fossil?

12. Why?!? Not even the creationist pamphlet-writers are dense enough to try to make that claim. When they write about fast-growing stalactites, they do it in order to try to (fallaciously and disingenuously) attack age-of-earth evidence, not fossils.

13. Are you so unfamiliar with the science you attempt to hand-wave away that you're entirely unaware of the many ways in which the age of fossils are independently determined and cross-checked?

14. Even if, as you incorrectly allege, "anything could be a fossil", how would this actually support your broad claim that "fossil evidence is tripe"? Wouldn't the morphology of the fossils be useful evidence even if "anything could be a fossil"?

15. Are you so arrogant that you're proud to snottily denounce the sciene without actually knowing the first thing about it?

16. How did you turn out that way?

17. Was your screen name consciously chosen for its aptness to the content of your posts, or is that just a fortuitous happenstance?

Thank you in advance for your elucidating answers.

234 posted on 09/26/2005 9:58:52 PM PDT by Ichneumon
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To: claptrap; blowfish; RunningWolf
So when you die are you going to take some scientists word that there is no life after death, and chance coming face to face with an indignant creator who you have spent your life ignoring because some intelectual in a lab coat said he couldnt possibly exist?

Good point -- so how do you plan to please Odin, Shiva, and Quetzelcotl, just in case? You don't dare risk coming face to face with an indignant Huitzilopochtli who you have spent your life ignoring, so you'd better get cracking on pleasing him in every way. Time's a-wasting.

235 posted on 09/26/2005 10:03:22 PM PDT by Ichneumon
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To: blowfish

If not all of the Bible is true then it should be disreguarded.
Yet I have seen wonderful things happen when I started doing
what is right by Gods standards. Evil things happened when I was
following standards like the nutty "right winged professor " represents
What he suggests is to dishonor God and make himself a god and in turn
influence others to become like him arrogant and decietful.


236 posted on 09/26/2005 10:04:28 PM PDT by claptrap (optional tagline under re-consideration)
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To: claptrap; Right Wing Professor
Why "Right Wing Professor" when you sound more like a left wing lackey trotting quotes from another left winger like Hitler.

[...]

standards like the nutty "right winged professor " represents What he suggests is to dishonor God and make himself a god and in turn influence others to become like him arrogant and decietful.

The mind boggles.

237 posted on 09/26/2005 10:11:08 PM PDT by Ichneumon
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To: Ichneumon

There were over 500 witnesses to Jesus after his crucifixion. His own brother didnt beleive yet later became
a believer and was willing to die for that belief.
There is more evidence for a real Jesus than for any
evolutionary process. His simple yet profound words
are so unique yet only a few will ever really believe and stand up for their faith, just as he said. None of the deities you have mentioned have that reach. I made my journey by adopting a disabled child from SE Asia after
seeing hell first hand I can never retun to your world
of mocking superority and smug complacency, and you would
not envy me my world but Im not counting on just the here and now for happiness sadly thats all you have.


238 posted on 09/26/2005 10:22:25 PM PDT by claptrap (optional tagline under re-consideration)
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To: Ichneumon
These are all many names for the one infinite beyond the absolute, and mans attempt to comprehend it. Ostensibly your gang has names too, they are called cosmology, evolution, et-al. Your gang wants to replace the names of Shiva and the rest these with your names.

Wolf
239 posted on 09/26/2005 10:31:16 PM PDT by RunningWolf (U.S. Army Veteran.....75-78)
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To: Ichneumon

Okay stalagmite is a mound of deposited minerals.
Stalactite forms in a downward direction.
In Colorado there is a place called Cave of the Winds
I have been there many times and they can form quite rapidly, blocking out whole sections of open areas.
The abundance or redeposited minerals should suggest the transitory nature of geological formations, if earthquakes dont do it for you.


240 posted on 09/26/2005 10:42:31 PM PDT by claptrap (optional tagline under re-consideration)
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To: Ichneumon
Ichneumon,

Believe it or not it is not my intention to diss science, or all the work those of you do in science fields. If you knew me more than from here you might see that. I'm a science and technology nut (among other nuttiness) ;)

Unfortunately the nature of these things gets many to places far from where most would rather be.

Wolf

241 posted on 09/26/2005 10:53:18 PM PDT by RunningWolf (U.S. Army Veteran.....75-78)
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To: Ichneumon

Calcim carbonate is formed from carbonic acids leaching minerals from soil and rocks, underground there is also sulfuric acids combined with a slurry of other materials.
With all these possible interactions millions of years are not required for petrification, On Mt Evans there are bristlecone pines that are half petrified and some completely petrified and some are still growing they are well above the treeline( elevation at which trees grow )
so I still insist that stone can form rapidly, by my own
observation, and Ive seen seashells stuck in half granite half quartz rocks way above 9000ft which suggests tremendous geologic activity which would render layer dating useless yet thats how most supposed fossils are dated.


242 posted on 09/26/2005 11:02:10 PM PDT by claptrap (optional tagline under re-consideration)
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To: claptrap
Well Claptrap obviously you do not understand.

All your observations will be bogus and rejected by the peer review board (80% of them) unless it points to a preordained conclusion (that comes from the high council of the peer review board)

Kind of circular it is isn't it huh ? /sarc>

Wolf

243 posted on 09/26/2005 11:12:22 PM PDT by RunningWolf (U.S. Army Veteran.....75-78)
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To: Ichneumon

If weeding out is such a preferable occurance why on earth the hue and cry to "save " endangered species?
Only because it is man who is doing the weeding?
Why dont the endangered species adapt and variants
occur to overcome their specific threat?
For example : gorillas why are they stuck being lousy gorillas they are rapidly dying off, no variant, no sub-species to replace them. Where is the evolution why arent they becoming smarter they have had billions and billions of years why the heck are they stuck as gorillas?


244 posted on 09/26/2005 11:28:59 PM PDT by claptrap (optional tagline under re-consideration)
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To: RunningWolf; claptrap
All your observations will be bogus and rejected by the peer review board (80% of them) unless it points to a preordained conclusion (that comes from the high council of the peer review board)

Do you really think that being a slanderous liar is helping your case?

Kind of circular it is isn't it huh ?

No, it isn't, but I suppose it may look that way to the grossly ignorant.

You guys are doing conservatism no favor with this sort of childishness. If you don't have any actual insights into the subject, ridiculing things you don't understand only reinforces the most ugly stereotypes of conservatives.

245 posted on 09/26/2005 11:34:51 PM PDT by Ichneumon
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To: claptrap
There were over 500 witnesses to Jesus after his crucifixion.

Really? Name them, and point me to their individual accounts.

There is more evidence for a real Jesus than for any evolutionary process.

You're not really clear on what the word "evidence" means, nor the nature and volume of the evidence for evolution, are you?

None of the deities you have mentioned have that reach.

Because their peak popularity took place before the invention of the printing press.

I made my journey by adopting a disabled child from SE Asia after seeing hell first hand I can never retun to your world of mocking superority and smug complacency,

EXCUSE ME? All of your posts on this thread have utterly reaked of "mocking superiority and smug complacency".

and you would not envy me my world but Im not counting on just the here and now for happiness sadly thats all you have.

You haven't a clue what I actually believe, son, but I see that that doesn't stop you from mistaking your fantasies about me for solid fact. The world is not as simple as your little black-and-white presumptions about it, and neither am I.

246 posted on 09/26/2005 11:40:14 PM PDT by Ichneumon
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To: RunningWolf
These are all many names for the one infinite beyond the absolute, and mans attempt to comprehend it.

No they aren't.

Ostensibly your gang has names too, they are called cosmology, evolution, et-al. Your gang wants to replace the names of Shiva and the rest these with your names.

Your complete failure to actually understand the first thing about "my gang" is obvious.

247 posted on 09/26/2005 11:41:45 PM PDT by Ichneumon
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To: Ichneumon
Liar? I am just taking material from right here on these boards from 'your side'

If no favor is being done to conservatism no favor with this childishness, then by the totality of the material here on these boards, we are all in the same club, (well I cant include you account I have not read all of your material). If your are honest you will own that for your 'side'.

And no one is one my side but me.

Wolf

248 posted on 09/26/2005 11:50:28 PM PDT by RunningWolf (U.S. Army Veteran.....75-78)
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To: Ichneumon
All of your posts on this thread have utterly reaked of "mocking superiority and smug complacency"

Thats wrong, I don't see that there, thats Your misinterpretation.

Wolf
249 posted on 09/26/2005 11:55:24 PM PDT by RunningWolf (U.S. Army Veteran.....75-78)
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To: Ichneumon
Your complete failure to actually understand the first thing about "my gang" is obvious.

That may be, but all I have to go on is what your gang puts up here. BTW if you don't like 'gang' give me a term you do like.

Wolf
250 posted on 09/26/2005 11:59:06 PM PDT by RunningWolf (U.S. Army Veteran.....75-78)
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