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Gay men can be priests if celibate
Yahooooooo ^ | 10/07/05 | Philip Pullella

Posted on 10/07/2005 5:26:14 AM PDT by Abathar

VATICAN CITY (Reuters) - The Vatican will allow gay men into the priesthood if they can show they have been celibate for at least three years, leading Italian newspaper Corriere della Sera reported on Friday.

But it said the Vatican will ban men who "publicly manifest their homosexuality" or show an "overwhelming attraction" to homosexual culture "even if it is only intellectually."

The Vatican views on gay priests are contained in a secret 16-page document which is expected to be released next month.

The document, an "instruction" by the Vatican's Congregation for Catholic Education, covers one of the most sensitive issues in the Roman Catholic Church.

Officials at the Congregation for Catholic Education and the Vatican press office could not be reached for immediate comment.

The Corriere report said: "Candidates who show a homosexual tendency will not be allowed into the priesthood unless they can demonstrate that they have been able to remain chaste for at least three years."

Media reports last month, primarily in the United States, said the document would bar all gay men from being ordained priests, even those who are celibate.

Those reports caused concerns in many quarters in the Church that many good men would be excluded by a total ban.

The Church teaches that homosexuality is not a sin but that homosexual acts are, and it expects all priests, whether homosexual or heterosexual, to remain celibate.

Corriere and the weekly Panorama magazine both reported on Friday that Pope Benedict had approved the document this summer.

Panorama said its release would be accompanied by a written explanation by "an internationally known psychologist."

WIDESPREAD CONTROVERSY

Reacting to earlier reports that the document would ban even celibate gays, Archbishop Diarmuid Martin of Dublin told the British Catholic newspaper The Tablet last week:

"You don't write off a candidate for the priesthood simply because he is a gay man."

Martin told the Tablet that seminaries did not in the past give men enough support to help them mature in their sexuality.

"We need to provide services of support for these priests and this will involve helping them along their personal journey and reassuring them."

In his book "The Changing Face of the Priesthood," Father Donald Cozzens estimated that some 40 percent of U.S. priests are gay but only a tiny minority are practicing homosexuals.

The Corriere report by the paper's respected religious affairs correspondent Luigi Accattoli, which he said was based on "verbal indiscretions," said the testing period for celibacy would be the last three years of seminary study.

Some conservative Catholics cheered last month's media reports that the new document would ban even celibate gays.

Archbishop Edwin F. O'Brien, head of the U.S. Archdiocese for Military Services, caused a storm when he said that even homosexuals who had managed to remain celibate for 10 years or more should not be admitted into seminaries.

Such positions were met by much criticism in the rest of the Church, particularly in the United States.

The Vatican has been working on the instruction on homosexual men and the priesthood for years. It will be a reform of a 1961 document which said men with "perverse inclination" to homosexuality should not be ordained.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: catholics; celibacy; gaymen; gaypriests; homosexualagenda; priesthood; priests; vatican
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To: Abathar
Reacting to earlier reports that the document would ban even celibate gays, Archbishop Diarmuid Martin of Dublin told the British Catholic newspaper The Tablet last week:

"You don't write off a candidate for the priesthood simply because he is a gay man."

Methinks the Vatican is backpedaling.

I favor enforcing the ban, not softening it.

51 posted on 10/07/2005 7:17:22 AM PDT by george wythe
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To: Abathar
The Vatican views on gay priests are contained in a secret 16-page document which is expected to be released next month.

Don't believe the hype. No one from the Vatican has said this or commented on it. This is a pressure leak by the usual suspects, pure and simple.

In fact, other rumors coming out of the Vatican are that men with homosexual inclinations are to be BANNED.
52 posted on 10/07/2005 7:19:54 AM PDT by Antoninus (The greatest gifts parents can give their children are siblings.)
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To: BibChr

IMHO, the passages in 1Cor 6 refering to those who will not inherit the Kingdom of God share a commonality that touches upon the way of thinking in one's heart. The root issue might be better found by touching on one of the other areas mentioned, such as liars or revilers or drunkards. The next few verses also stipulate this isn't an issue of the law, so the list of exclusionary descriptors isn't merely a list of criminal behavior.


53 posted on 10/07/2005 7:20:12 AM PDT by Cvengr (<;^))
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To: JimRed
Those who cannot or will not control sexual urges should choose another form of service.

IMHO, those who will not control their sexual urges, need to first focus on how they might have the mind of Christ. It comes by turning away from sin and returning to God. It's first a thinking exercise. The physical issues are minor compared to the thinking exercise in order to exercise the mind of Christ. This is the firt priority for the Christian to remain in fellowship with God on His terms.

The physical aspects, indeed manifest the heart and glaringly reflect where the fallen are inadequate.

54 posted on 10/07/2005 7:24:12 AM PDT by Cvengr (<;^))
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To: Cvengr

Not sure I understand your point. Are you saying that anyone who is tempted to sin cannot be saved, according to Paul?

Dan


55 posted on 10/07/2005 7:27:54 AM PDT by BibChr ("...behold, they have rejected the word of the LORD, so what wisdom is in them?" [Jer. 8:9])
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To: BibChr

NO, of course not,...but there is no temptation that cannot be resisted through Him.


56 posted on 10/07/2005 7:29:50 AM PDT by Cvengr (<;^))
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To: veronica

they are already there. The real issue is that the Church doesn't really talk about how to live a celibate life.


57 posted on 10/07/2005 7:34:27 AM PDT by saveliberty (I did not break the feed. I may have lost it, but I did not break the feed)
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To: Abathar
I include below the only relevant portions of this article:
leading Italian newspaper Corriere della Sera reported ...

contained in a secret 16-page document ...

Congregation for Catholic Education and the Vatican press office could not be reached for immediate comment ...

The Corriere report said ...

Media reports last month ...

Corriere and the weekly Panorama magazine both reported ...

Panorama said its release would be accompanied by a written explanation by "an internationally known psychologist ...

Reacting to earlier reports ...

The Corriere report by the paper's respected religious affairs correspondent Luigi Accattoli ...

So let me sum up for everyone:
Reporters are reporting that other reporters have written reports about various respected coreesponent's reporting reports.

58 posted on 10/07/2005 7:34:48 AM PDT by avg_freeper (Gunga galunga. Gunga, gunga galunga)
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To: Cvengr

Yes but doesn't each person have to reconcile himself or herself to the Almighty?

Mercy plays an important part.


59 posted on 10/07/2005 7:35:28 AM PDT by saveliberty (I did not break the feed. I may have lost it, but I did not break the feed)
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To: saveliberty

Nope, God does all the reconciliation, i.e. God reconciles man, not man reconciling God. God reconciles all mankind to Himself, and each person has to ratify that reconciliation by faith in Him through Christ.

EIRENE or Greek for the doctrine of Reconciliation is synonomous with making peace. Man can repent or turn away from disobedience, but the peacemaking is done by Him.


60 posted on 10/07/2005 7:41:51 AM PDT by Cvengr (<;^))
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To: Abathar

Is this report believable since the Vatican does not comment on documents until actually released?

There is no place for ANY homosexual in the priesthood. period. They are not an example in any way.


61 posted on 10/07/2005 7:45:27 AM PDT by longtermmemmory (VOTE!)
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To: Cvengr
Well, Paul's main word for "homosexual" is arsenokoites, which rather woodenly-literally means "a man one who lies sexually with males." It highlights activity, not feelings, or temptations.

Now it's true that the thought-life is in God's view. There is a difference between having temptations, and grasping a temptation mentally, clinging to it, pursuing it, nurturing it, accepting it....

So if "gay" "priests" who don't act on impulses they otherwise embrace, accept, and wallow in are OK, how about those also embracing thoughts of rape, murder, child molesting, theft, other things God condemns?

Doesn't make sense at any level.

Dan

62 posted on 10/07/2005 7:50:05 AM PDT by BibChr ("...behold, they have rejected the word of the LORD, so what wisdom is in them?" [Jer. 8:9])
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To: Abathar

No homosexuals in the priesthoood PERIOD... Vatican must end this practice immediately... YOu cannot make a deal with the devil and think you can keep it contained.


63 posted on 10/07/2005 7:51:40 AM PDT by HamiltonJay
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To: rface
>I am not sure how they (Vatican) can expect a priest to "prove" 3 years of celebate life....


64 posted on 10/07/2005 7:53:15 AM PDT by theFIRMbss
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To: BibChr

I agree with you. I've never heard a 'gay' proponent argue that they resist and turn away from homosexual thinking or homosexual acts in their seeking fellowhip with God on His terms, but I have seen many homosexuals who sense they lack a sincere fellowship with God, remain enslaved to sin, and attempt to fabricate any counterfeit relationship to God that might creep upon them. To that end, I understand the entire 'glbf' agenda in 'Christianity' as an attempt to create a counterfeit religion based upon what they see as right in their own eyes without God's work. Hence their efforts are good for nothingness from a divine perspective.


65 posted on 10/07/2005 9:57:27 AM PDT by Cvengr (<;^))
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To: BibChr

Is it just me or has reality changed?

I always seemed to remember the word 'homosexual' or 'Sodomite' being used in those verses, yet whenever I do a word search for those terms in Internet concordances, they never seem to hit, but now the Scripture has been changed on the net to read something like, 'those who defile themselves with mankind'.

I must have tripped into another parallel universe again,....Kurt Vonnegut would be jealous...


66 posted on 10/07/2005 10:08:08 AM PDT by Cvengr (<;^))
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To: pgkdan

Right. If you're celibate, you're NOsexual. Period.


67 posted on 10/07/2005 1:28:53 PM PDT by zeebee
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To: saveliberty
"I have to say that Shep Smith made a great comment the other night when he asked "If they are celibate, why would their sexual orientation matter?"

Because, being homosexual, they are mentally ill, and should be in treatment---not studying for the priesthood until they are cured.

I've known enough queers to know that they are NOT mentally normal. They're called "queer" for a reason.

68 posted on 10/07/2005 3:30:40 PM PDT by Wonder Warthog (The Hog of Steel)
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To: Abathar; 2ndMostConservativeBrdMember; afraidfortherepublic; Alas; al_c; american colleen; ...
Report: Vatican to ask seminarians with gay tendencies to prove chastity for three years

69 posted on 10/07/2005 6:14:16 PM PDT by Coleus (I support ethical, effective and safe stem cell research and use: adult, umbilical cord, bone marrow)
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To: ExcursionGuy84
"How can a Man possibly be Homosexual and Celibate at the same time [according to modern-day lifestyle examples found anywhere]???

I agree. Homosexuality is a behavior.

70 posted on 10/07/2005 6:28:48 PM PDT by ElkGroveDan (California bashers will be called out)
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To: Abathar
The main problem in the last 15-20 years has been Bishops who looked the other way when complaints were lodged against the folks running the Seminaries. These liberals who had worked their way into these places of power allowed obviously homosexual candidates to be ordained. These homosexual candidates, and some professors created a climate in these Seminaries that ran faithful young men out, and turned them off to the priesthood entirely.

Another problem was the feminist nuns who were sitting on Vocations boards who rejected faithful men, but allowed the homosexual men to enter the Seminaries because they were considered more 'mature' about their sexuality. Since these nuns and liberal professors are aging and dying off, their replacements, chosen by the newer, more orthodox Bishops are changing the Seminaries in ways that will be good for the Church in the next 5-10 years when these new priests take their place in Parishes all over the country.

71 posted on 10/07/2005 6:39:03 PM PDT by SuziQ
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To: Cvengr

bttt


72 posted on 10/07/2005 6:53:43 PM PDT by expatguy (http://laotze.blogspot.com/)
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To: george wythe

Archbishop Diarmuid Martin of Dublin loves the lavendar lads, and he's a right snake to boot.


73 posted on 10/07/2005 7:40:26 PM PDT by Maeve (Praying........)
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To: Coleus

This makes me nervous. How can they prove chastity??


74 posted on 10/07/2005 7:57:27 PM PDT by Sun (Hillary Clinton is pro-ILLEGAL immigration. Don't let her fool you. She has a D- /F immigr. rating.)
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To: brewcrew

Ummmnhhh...

The propaganda war continues.

IOW, there's less to this story than meets the eye. Key quote: "..anyone familiar with Church teaching knows what the document will say..."

Meaning the 1961 document will be re-affirmed.

All the rest of this is merely 'guidelines for judgment.' What that means is that Bishops and Vocations Directors STILL 'make the call,' and it's possible that the laity will regret it.

However, it's also clear that the Vatican looks with great unhappiness on the mess in the USA and is sending a clear message.


75 posted on 10/08/2005 9:14:40 AM PDT by ninenot (Minister of Membership, Tomas Torquemada Gentlemen's Club)
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To: saveliberty

Shep Smith's remark demonstrates that he's not exactly a "deep thinker." But we knew that already.

Homosexuality is NOT MERELY a matter of orifice-selection. It is a weltaunschuung--a worldview--which is "intrinsically disordered" and gravely so.

Smith and O'Reilly--a great like-minded duo. No mind in either one; a perfect match.


76 posted on 10/08/2005 9:17:36 AM PDT by ninenot (Minister of Membership, Tomas Torquemada Gentlemen's Club)
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To: Sam Cree

Ummmnhhh...

You DO know that The Press makes, ah, errors in its "reporting", right?

Hold your fire.


77 posted on 10/08/2005 9:19:21 AM PDT by ninenot (Minister of Membership, Tomas Torquemada Gentlemen's Club)
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To: veronica

As has been repeated endlessly--"press" reports have been erroneous.

We're still short about 9,000 corpses in NOLA.


78 posted on 10/08/2005 9:21:10 AM PDT by ninenot (Minister of Membership, Tomas Torquemada Gentlemen's Club)
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To: BibChr
Homosexuality is an activity

Really?

79 posted on 10/08/2005 9:21:59 AM PDT by ninenot (Minister of Membership, Tomas Torquemada Gentlemen's Club)
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To: george wythe

Martin's been a suspect for a long time.


80 posted on 10/08/2005 9:23:23 AM PDT by ninenot (Minister of Membership, Tomas Torquemada Gentlemen's Club)
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To: avg_freeper

Well said. The only part you forgot is that "these reports were gathered from respectable press accounts which were discussed over several bottles of booze at dinner."


81 posted on 10/08/2005 9:24:57 AM PDT by ninenot (Minister of Membership, Tomas Torquemada Gentlemen's Club)
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To: Wonder Warthog
I've known enough queers to know that they are NOT mentally normal. They're called "queer" for a reason.

COMMON SENSE PRIZE POST!!!

Same here, I second your sentiments and knowledge.

82 posted on 10/08/2005 9:27:06 AM PDT by ninenot (Minister of Membership, Tomas Torquemada Gentlemen's Club)
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To: ElkGroveDan

See above. I disagree--it's a mental disorder, regardless of the gerrymandering by the American Psychiatric Ass'n.


83 posted on 10/08/2005 9:28:14 AM PDT by ninenot (Minister of Membership, Tomas Torquemada Gentlemen's Club)
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To: Abathar; brewcrew; austinite

Looks to be rumor being repeated as though news, by hopefuls.

No ban on gays expected in Vatican document; will advise 'prudential judgement'
National Catholic Reporter ^ | Friday Oct. 7, 2005 at 8:27 a.m. CDT | John L. Allen, Jr.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1498416/posts


84 posted on 10/08/2005 9:32:04 AM PDT by little jeremiah (A vitiated state of morals, a corrupted public conscience, are incompatible with freedom. P. Henry)
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To: ElkGroveDan

Here's an interesting article:

http://www.winonadailynews.com/articles/2005/10/08/news/2news8.txt

Note that the shrinks state that 'the [candidate] is just fine, he's not a homosexual, he's stable...'

If you've read the stories on this guy, you'll find that 1) there are credible allegations of ephebophilia/homosexuality; and 2) the priest "cried a lot" during confessions, Masses, prayer, etc.

IOW, the shrinks were dead wrong. He WAS a homosexual and he was NOT "stable." But I repeat myself.


85 posted on 10/08/2005 9:32:16 AM PDT by ninenot (Minister of Membership, Tomas Torquemada Gentlemen's Club)
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To: livius; zeebee; All

Read the link I just posted. It'll cheer you up.


86 posted on 10/08/2005 9:33:23 AM PDT by little jeremiah (A vitiated state of morals, a corrupted public conscience, are incompatible with freedom. P. Henry)
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To: Coleus

Check out the link I just posted above.


87 posted on 10/08/2005 9:37:34 AM PDT by little jeremiah (A vitiated state of morals, a corrupted public conscience, are incompatible with freedom. P. Henry)
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To: ninenot; little jeremiah

From little jeremiah's link"

"A forthcoming Vatican document on homosexuals in seminaries will not demand an absolute ban, a senior Vatican official told NCR Oct. 7, but will insist that seminary officials exercise "prudential judgment" that gay candidates should not be admitted in three cases.

Those three cases are:

If candidates have not demonstrated a capacity to live celibate lives for at least three years;

If they are part of a "gay culture," for example, attending gay pride rallies (a point, the official said, which applies both to professors at seminaries as well as students);

If their homosexual orientation is sufficiently "strong, permanent and univocal" as to make an all-male environment a risk.

In any case, the Vatican official said, whether or not these criteria exclude a particular candidate is a judgment that must be made in the context of individual spiritual direction, rather than by applying a rigid litmus test."


88 posted on 10/08/2005 10:41:17 AM PDT by Sam Cree (absolute reality)
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To: Sam Cree

Guidelines, which ought to have been obvious.

SHOULD this be accurate, it's #2 which is most interesting; not only because there's a hint about the future of Sem profs who are rah-rah-queer types--but in addition, because 'participating in "gay culture"' will be a clear bar, especially if applied with any common sense.

EG, does the Seminarian hang around queer bars? Enjoy shopping for household decorative items? Spend inordinate time worrying about fashion, both personal and household?

you get the drift...


89 posted on 10/08/2005 10:53:54 AM PDT by ninenot (Minister of Membership, Tomas Torquemada Gentlemen's Club)
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To: ninenot
See above. I disagree--it's a mental disorder, regardless of the gerrymandering by the American Psychiatric Ass'n.

Oh I totally agree. That is my mantra, that these kinds of perversion are mental disorders. But it is also a behavior, in the same way that pyromania is a mental disorder and a behavior. The important point is that it's not an immutable characteristic like left-handedness that the PC crowd want us to believe.

90 posted on 10/08/2005 10:56:11 AM PDT by ElkGroveDan (California bashers will be called out)
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To: Abathar

Sure Gay Priests, why not, it has work well so far.

We need Gay Scout leaders too, wandering off into the woods with our children.

Not!


91 posted on 10/08/2005 10:58:15 AM PDT by TheForceOfOne (It was a village of idiots that raised Hillary to Senator status.)
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To: ninenot

Well, I don't know if they are necessarily obvious before they are made public.

My opinion is that there shouldn't be gay priests allowed at all, regardless of celibacy. I disagree with those posters who find it necessary that one actually practice the act before being classed a homosexual, I believe that what is in the mind is what counts.

That being said, I am sure that there have been many very fine priests who have been gay.


92 posted on 10/08/2005 11:18:28 AM PDT by Sam Cree (absolute reality)
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To: Abathar

**Gay men can be priests if celibate**

Huh? This sounds like propaganda from the left.


93 posted on 10/10/2005 9:15:02 AM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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