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Dover, PA Evolution Trial [daily thread for 07 Oct]
York Daily Record ^ | 07 October 2005 | Staff

Posted on 10/07/2005 7:23:15 AM PDT by PatrickHenry

To keep this all in one daily thread, here are links to two articles in the York Daily Record (with excerpts from each), which has been doing a great job of reporting on the trial:

Forrest cross-examination a rambling wonder.

About the time that Richard Thompson, head law guy at the Thomas More center and chief defender of the Dover Area School Board, started his third year of cross-examination of philosopher Barbara Forrest, it was easy to imagine that at that moment, everyone in the courtroom, including Forrest, who doesn’t believe in God, was violating the separation of church and court by appealing to God for it to please, Lord, just stop.

It wouldn’t have been so bad if there was a point to the ceaseless stream of questions from Thompson designed to elicit Lord knows what. He’d ask her the same question 18 different times, expecting, I guess, a different answer at some point. And he never got it.

Thompson, who said he’s a former prosecutor, should have known better. Forrest, a professor at Southeastern Louisiana University and expert on the history of the intelligent design creationist movement, was a lot smarter than, say, some poor, dumb criminal defendant.

Here is a summation of Forrest’s testimony: She examined the history of the intelligent design movement and concluded that it’s simply another name for creationism. And what led her to that conclusion? The movement leader’s own words. They started out with a religious proposition and sought to clothe it in science. The result was similar to putting a suit on your dog.

[anip]

Thompson was in the midst of asking Forrest whether she had heard a bunch of things that some people had said to indicate, well, to indicate whether she’d heard a bunch of things that some people had said, I guess, when the topic came up.

Thompson asked whether she had ever heard a statement by some guy — frankly, this one caught me off-guard and I didn’t catch the guy’s name — who said that belief in evolution can be used to justify “cross-species sex.”

This came on the same day that Thompson grilled Forrest about her opposition to the so-called Santorum amendment to the No Child Left Behind Act that seemed to encourage, sort of, the teaching of intelligent design. Our U.S. Sen. Rick Santorum is a friend of the intelligent design people.

He also has a strange obsession with bestiality, commenting that court decisions that uphold the right to privacy would lead to — naturally, and you know you were thinking it — man-on-dog sex.

Dover science teachers testified that they fought references to intelligent design.

Defense attorney Richard Thompson [he represents the school board] said differing opinions on whether teachers and administration worked in cooperation to create the Dover Area School District’s statement on intelligent design comes down to perspective.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Miscellaneous; Philosophy; US: Pennsylvania
KEYWORDS: crevolist; dover; evolution; scienceeducation
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Everyone be nice.
1 posted on 10/07/2005 7:23:16 AM PDT by PatrickHenry
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To: VadeRetro; Junior; longshadow; RadioAstronomer; Doctor Stochastic; js1138; Shryke; RightWhale; ...
EvolutionPing
A pro-evolution science list with over 300 names.
See the list's explanation at my freeper homepage.
Then FReepmail to be added or dropped.
See what's new in The List-O-Links.

2 posted on 10/07/2005 7:24:54 AM PDT by PatrickHenry ( I won't respond to a troll, crackpot, half-wit, or incurable ignoramus.)
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To: PatrickHenry

The religious right should be fighting better battles than this one.(loud whisper----the euthanasia battle, as well as abortion) Although I believe in God and agree that Darwin's theory of evolution is only a theory--intelligent design is basically a faith question trying to pass itself off as science.


3 posted on 10/07/2005 7:28:48 AM PDT by brooklyn dave (Allah is a Moon god)
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To: PatrickHenry

I'm in.


4 posted on 10/07/2005 7:32:39 AM PDT by narby
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To: PatrickHenry
Thompson asked whether she had ever heard a statement by some guy — frankly, this one caught me off-guard and I didn’t catch the guy’s name — who said that belief in evolution can be used to justify “cross-species sex.”

They're paying this guy money for this?

5 posted on 10/07/2005 7:44:17 AM PDT by Quark2005 (Where's the science?)
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Comment #6 Removed by Moderator

To: PatrickHenry
This isn't the first instance where the judge has indicated he thinks the Thomas More law center's attorneys are incompetent. I mean, bestiality? The great thing in a bench trial is the judge can let them waste their time without stopping them, as he would in a jury trial. And as long as they waste their time, they're not presenting material that would actually help their case...if there is anything that would help their case.

Dembski on his blog has already concluded Dover's probably going to lose. What he's hoping is that this will be a narrow decision; that the court will find that Dover erred without finding that ID is a form of creationism and therefore constitutionally excluded from public schools. Conversely, it looks like the ACLU is shooting for all the marbles. And they might well win them.

7 posted on 10/07/2005 7:48:10 AM PDT by Right Wing Professor
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To: PatrickHenry
They started out with a religious proposition and sought to clothe it in science. The result was similar to putting a suit on your dog.

That pretty much sums it up.

He also has a strange obsession with bestiality, commenting that court decisions that uphold the right to privacy would lead to — naturally, and you know you were thinking it — man-on-dog sex.

The more I learn about this intelligent design hoax, the more I learn there's some very sick and sick minded people pushing it.

8 posted on 10/07/2005 7:54:53 AM PDT by shuckmaster (Bring back SeaLion and ModernMan!)
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To: PatrickHenry

Thanks for the ping!


9 posted on 10/07/2005 7:55:39 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Right Wing Professor
This isn't the first instance where the judge has indicated he thinks the Thomas More law center's attorneys are incompetent. I mean, bestiality?

You've got to figure that these type of people are used to dealing with a brainwashed congregation that drinks up that kind of kool-aid. Now, instead of being happy with their freedom of religion, they want to push taliban style fanaticism into science class and lose in court. It would seem that reasonable people in the religious community would call them on it but they sit silent even as the major advocates of the intelligent design hoax slink back into the shadows and wash their hands.

10 posted on 10/07/2005 8:02:45 AM PDT by shuckmaster (Bring back SeaLion and ModernMan!)
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To: PatrickHenry
A space alien supporter from the article:

The editorial board of the Oracle, the student newspaper of the University of South Florida, wrote, “Intelligent design is not just dressed up creationism.” Those who dismiss the position “undermine their own academic credibility. People who think dogma is only found in religion should think again.”

Space aliens are certainly credible. The last sentence is true, however.

11 posted on 10/07/2005 8:09:57 AM PDT by <1/1,000,000th%
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To: Right Wing Professor
... finding that ID is a form of creationism and therefore constitutionally excluded from public schools.

The worst of all possible outcomes for them. They would have to go back into the creation science labs, sweep away all the cobwebs, raise the lightening rod, and do some science.

12 posted on 10/07/2005 8:33:25 AM PDT by js1138 (Great is the power of steady misrepresentation.)
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To: PatrickHenry

These ID people are an insult to dogs.


13 posted on 10/07/2005 8:38:29 AM PDT by RightWingNilla
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To: js1138

I guess then we'll have to throw out any scientific work done by non-atheists that lived before Darwin.


14 posted on 10/07/2005 8:50:43 AM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: metmom
I guess then we'll have to throw out any scientific work done by non-atheists that lived before Darwin.

Why? I don't think you seem to understand - the affront of ID is not that it acknowledges God, but that it tries to place God under the dominion of science.

Not only does this lead to premature scientific conclusions, I think it's insulting to God. But then again, the latter is only my personal opinion.

15 posted on 10/07/2005 9:03:34 AM PDT by Quark2005 (Where's the science?)
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To: js1138
The worst of all possible outcomes for them. They would have to go back into the creation science labs, sweep away all the cobwebs, raise the lightening rod, and do some science.

Or just find another euphemism for the same phoney nonsense.

"This is Originated Complexity. It's not creationism, and not intelligent design, oh no, this is new, and scientific"

16 posted on 10/07/2005 9:06:14 AM PDT by Right Wing Professor
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To: PatrickHenry
... naturally, and you know you were thinking it — man-on-dog sex.

ABOMINATION!!!

Not the doggies! That's what the sheep are for. </Redneck_mode>

17 posted on 10/07/2005 9:14:54 AM PDT by VadeRetro (Come back, Shane!)
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To: PatrickHenry
He also has a strange obsession with bestiality, commenting that court decisions that uphold the right to privacy would lead to — naturally, and you know you were thinking it — man-on-dog sex.

Well, he's actually right on this one. If there is a right to privacy in the constitution, then the state has no power to outlaw bestiality, adult incest, or polygamy.

18 posted on 10/07/2005 9:33:04 AM PDT by curiosity (Cronyism is not Conservative)
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To: Quark2005

Based on some of the responses by evolutionists towards creationists and Christians it appears that the affront IS God. The vitriol directed towards those who profess fatih of any kind is very concerning. Post 10 is a good example. There are others if you peruse other creation/evolution threads.


19 posted on 10/07/2005 9:41:42 AM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: Right Wing Professor
One day they might come up with something that is bad science but sufficiently removed from religion to pass Constitutional muster. After all, there's nothing in the Constitution that says public schools must teach sound science, and it's not the place of the courts to decide science education policy.

That's why defeating intelligent design in court is not enough. We've got to fight them state by state, school district by school district.

20 posted on 10/07/2005 9:42:16 AM PDT by curiosity (Cronyism is not Conservative)
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To: metmom
The vitriol directed towards those who profess fatih of any kind is very concerning.

Oh BS. Most pro-evolution Freepers are believing Christians, including me. Occaisionally some non-believer might make an intemperate remark, but these are usually directed only at young earth creationists (YECs), not Christians in genereal. Furthermore, such comments are seldom as nasty as YEC comments about non-believers. Heck, YECS aren't below be nasty toward their fellolw Christians who just happen disagree with their ultra-literalist interpretation of scripture.

21 posted on 10/07/2005 9:50:07 AM PDT by curiosity (Cronyism is not Conservative)
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To: shuckmaster

22 posted on 10/07/2005 9:52:16 AM PDT by balrog666 (A myth by any other name is still inane.)
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To: PatrickHenry

exactly what the hell are these buffoons smoking? catnip?

I'd love to see a step by step flowchart of the "logic" they use to infer that the ToE "justifies" the sexual perversion known as "zoophilia".


23 posted on 10/07/2005 10:13:59 AM PDT by King Prout (19sep05 - I want at least 2 Saiga-12 shotguns. If you have leads, let me know)
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To: bobbdobbs
He also has a strange obsession with bestiality, commenting that court decisions that uphold the right to privacy would lead to — naturally, and you know you were thinking it — man-on-dog sex.

That must have been Darwin's secret agenda!!! (sarcasm)

But there's proof!

"You care for nothing but shooting, dogs, and rat-catching, and you will be a disgrace to yourself and all your family."

---Robert Darwin to son Charles

24 posted on 10/07/2005 10:19:07 AM PDT by Stultis
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To: King Prout
I'd love to see a step by step flowchart of the "logic" they use to infer that the ToE "justifies" the sexual perversion known as "zoophilia".

It's one thing for these creationists to always be preaching to the choir, so to speak. They'll always get agreement, support, and even praise for their arguments. (I assume even a nutcase like Jack Chick gets tons of adoring fan mail.) But when they get out into the rest of the world, they can find that folks look at them like they're stark raving bonkers.

25 posted on 10/07/2005 10:20:39 AM PDT by PatrickHenry ( I won't respond to a troll, crackpot, half-wit, or incurable ignoramus.)
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To: PatrickHenry

these particular folks are not nutbags... they are a few too many nuts short to qualify


26 posted on 10/07/2005 10:26:52 AM PDT by King Prout (19sep05 - I want at least 2 Saiga-12 shotguns. If you have leads, let me know)
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To: brooklyn dave

No, it isn't...intelligent design is just that, the proposition that the evolutionary process was possibly assisted by an outside power. Taht power NEED not be god, Intelligent design attacks the dogmatic adherence to Darwinism, in the face of good questions. Darwinism is offered up as the answer to all questions. I for one, do not beleive for one moment in the 6 day creation, or any of the Old Testament stories of creation, I find it incredible, but on the other hand for Darwin to come along and close the door to all debate is nothing short of intellectual thuggery. Many of the proponents and supporters of ID are indeed, creationists, but most of them are like me. Regular attendees of the Church of the Big Bang, that have many questions and don't like the thug posted at the door to the classroom, be he Creationist or Darwinist.


27 posted on 10/07/2005 10:29:12 AM PDT by ronnieb
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To: PatrickHenry
More shocking truths about how evolution will lead to experimentation with cross-species sex can be found by following this link. WARNING: Not for the faint of heart!
28 posted on 10/07/2005 10:29:17 AM PDT by Liberal Classic (No better friend, no worse enemy. Semper Fi.)
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To: PatrickHenry
Forrest cross-examination a rambling wonder.

One really, really has to go to that link and read the FULL account to get the full effect. The stunner was when he said the JUDGE suggested to the plaintiff's attorneys that they object, so he bring the cross-x to an end, because it had gone so far afield and, in the judges words: "it's not helping me."

Waaaaaaaa!

From the characterization of the questions the judge DID allow in, I get the impression the judge is making SURE this case isn't going to get overturned on appeal, for denying defendants their chance to bring in everything, including the kitchen sink, into evidence during cross exam.....

I also suspect the plaintiffs' attorneys sense victory, and they aren't bothering to object very much to this rambling incoherent cross-exam because 1) they know it isn't going to hurt their case, and 2) why give the defense a point on which to try to appeal a decision against them?

Very interesting account of the case, I must say....

29 posted on 10/07/2005 10:31:55 AM PDT by longshadow
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Comment #30 Removed by Moderator

To: shuckmaster

Wow...that is hilarious...so whole segments of the population are just idiots. They have no questions or thoughts which you condescend to respect, perhaps they are 4/5 of a human in your view...Taliban...whoa...heavy stuff, how about Nazi's( a bit overdone..Taliban, has a better ring, much more contemporary and, indeed, holding a creationist view is to be compared to clitoris removal and chopping off hands of petty thiefs, and the complete denail of civil rights to half of the population. Yeah, they deserve that and worse..How about Uber Taliban, that captures the historical connection we all constantly seek, and at the same time, gives it a 21st century feel. I like it. Uber Taliban....


31 posted on 10/07/2005 10:45:31 AM PDT by ronnieb
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Comment #32 Removed by Moderator

To: ronnieb
I find it incredible, but on the other hand for Darwin to come along and close the door to all debate is nothing short of intellectual thuggery. Many of the proponents and supporters of ID are indeed, creationists, but most of them are like me.

Personally, I'm up in arms that they don't teach about fairies and gremlins in history class. There is absolutely no scientific proof that fairies and gremlins don't exist, and if they did, it would certainly explain many puzzling facts of history. I think this affront to we wee-people-ists is nothing short of intellectual thuggery.

33 posted on 10/07/2005 10:56:46 AM PDT by donh
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To: bobbdobbs

No it DOES NOT! Your description is a Ferry boat on top of a Canoe. Darwinism is not a monolithic truth, impervious to challenge for all time. The qualities of ID are not the point, however, the point is do the citizens have any say over their institutions, namely their schools which they pay for. I really don't care if you believe Turtles on Tops of Turtles means something, or not, but I do care if you somehow justify stopping discussion of what I would call the eternal question because you have made up your mind. ID is on the right side of intellectual curiosity.


34 posted on 10/07/2005 10:58:08 AM PDT by ronnieb
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To: Right Wing Professor

How about algorithm at inception?


35 posted on 10/07/2005 11:00:33 AM PDT by js1138 (Great is the power of steady misrepresentation.)
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To: donh

Brilliant....Actually they do teach about Fairies and Gremlins in History Class. Some of us haven't figured that out yet.


36 posted on 10/07/2005 11:03:49 AM PDT by ronnieb
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To: js1138

Maybe we need a Top Ten list : 'next "alternative to evolution" once ID is flushed down into the great sewage lagoon of pseudoscience'


37 posted on 10/07/2005 11:04:31 AM PDT by Right Wing Professor
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To: Junior
The code I copied from you is now in place. It's the all-new, clickable index to The List-O-Links.
38 posted on 10/07/2005 11:07:25 AM PDT by PatrickHenry ( I won't respond to a troll, crackpot, half-wit, or incurable ignoramus.)
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To: Right Wing Professor

That flush just fertilizes the next infestation of weeds.


39 posted on 10/07/2005 11:09:27 AM PDT by js1138 (Great is the power of steady misrepresentation.)
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To: ronnieb
They have no questions or thoughts which you condescend to respect, perhaps they are 4/5 of a human in your view

Whereas, what ID has to say, is so utterly respectful and courteous toward the hundreds of thousands of biological scientists who slave away to expand the story of Darwinian evolution in concrete detail, after having spend a fortune and a good part of their lives becoming qualified to do so.

As I recall, we don't normally consult lay opinions about what is taught in science class, for the same reason we don't hire the deaf to teach music, or the illiterate to teach english. If we wanted children to graduate from school with their brains as mushy as they started, we wouldn't waste the money on schools. When laypersons want to use the color of law to countermand what scientists want to put in science textbooks, it is an affront no rhetoric in these threads comes remotely close to matching.

40 posted on 10/07/2005 11:09:50 AM PDT by donh
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To: Right Wing Professor
Maybe we need a Top Ten list : 'next "alternative to evolution" once ID is flushed down into the great sewage lagoon of pseudoscience'

I'm expecting the post-modernist, politically correct theory of the spontaneous, holistic, biocosism. (That sentence drove the spell-checker crazy.)

41 posted on 10/07/2005 11:12:01 AM PDT by PatrickHenry ( I won't respond to a troll, crackpot, half-wit, or incurable ignoramus.)
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To: Right Wing Professor
Maybe we need a Top Ten list : 'next "alternative to evolution" once ID is flushed down into the great sewage lagoon of pseudoscience'

How about 'The Immaculate Biospectrum'?

42 posted on 10/07/2005 11:18:12 AM PDT by Antonello
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To: ronnieb
Brilliant....Actually they do teach about Fairies and Gremlins in History Class. Some of us haven't figured that out yet.

Uh huh. This theory finds many strong proponents amongst those who think eubonics, spanglish, and pigeon ought to be taught as an acceptable alternative to autocratic, elitist english spelling and grammar.

I'd suggest that at the heart of the civilization conspiracy is the notion that some ideas are better than others, and therefore, deserve primacy of consideration, and in that regard, the democratic spirit does not outrank scientific, or most any other form, of intellectual achievement.

43 posted on 10/07/2005 11:19:49 AM PDT by donh
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To: js1138
They would have to go back into the creation science labs, sweep away all the cobwebs, raise the lightening rod, and do some science.

No, they would have to rely on the "argument from consequences." For example they could argue that Darwinism leads to people wearing stripes with plaid.

44 posted on 10/07/2005 11:20:31 AM PDT by Doctor Stochastic (Vegetabilisch = chaotisch ist der Charakter der Modernen. - Friedrich Schlegel)
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To: js1138
They would have to go back into the creation science labs, sweep away all the cobwebs, raise the lightening rod, and do some science.

Or...

they could just have a little meeting, come up with a new and snazzy name for creationism/intelligent design, and spend the next few years lying about how it isn't about creationism, intelligent design, or religion, and we can all go through this again, and again, and again...

45 posted on 10/07/2005 11:21:08 AM PDT by wyattearp (The best weapon to have in a gunfight is a shotgun - preferably from ambush.)
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To: donh

That response can stand on it's pompous silly self! I will say that Science in this and many cases is not a house undivided nor is it a house untainted with the stench of politics. Your irrelevant analogies notwithstanding, ID wether there are the dreaded Creatists in their midsts or not, deserves airing. As I said before, free inquiry means exactly that(on a turtle) people are not disqualified by their religion. Those of you that think so, can find yourselves being prominently featured in all kinds of history books throughou time( a hint...your not the fairy...your the Gremlin!)


46 posted on 10/07/2005 11:23:38 AM PDT by ronnieb
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To: Doctor Stochastic

47 posted on 10/07/2005 11:23:43 AM PDT by js1138 (Great is the power of steady misrepresentation.)
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To: ronnieb

Are you related to Richard Thompson, by any chance?


48 posted on 10/07/2005 11:31:18 AM PDT by wyattearp (The best weapon to have in a gunfight is a shotgun - preferably from ambush.)
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Comment #49 Removed by Moderator

To: longshadow; PatrickHenry

this cross examination is so absurd, so perfect an exemplar (even... charicature?) of the extreme edge of ID lunacy, that I am forced to consider the possibility that the IDiot's Counsel might have been bribed or planted by Darwin Central.


50 posted on 10/07/2005 11:33:50 AM PDT by King Prout (19sep05 - I want at least 2 Saiga-12 shotguns. If you have leads, let me know)
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