Experts Say Soft Soil May Have Caused New Orleans Levee Breaches ( Water Did Not Flow Over Top)

Voice of America ^ | 9 Oct 2005 | Staff

[Our_Man_In_Gough_Island]

Experts studying the flooding of New Orleans after Hurricane Katrina say the breach of key floodwalls might have been caused by soft soil under the walls, a problem the Army Corps of Engineers had been warned about.

Engineers from the American Society of Civil Engineers and the University of California at Berkeley said Friday there was no evidence that the floodwaters surged over the tops of the floodwalls at 17th Street or London Avenue Canals, as previously thought.

Instead, they said, soft soil may have given way underneath the walls - a danger a contracting company pointed out to the Army Corps of Engineers in the early 1990s. In one section of the 17th Street canal, a levee embankment had moved more than 10 meters from its original spot.

The experts also said they found at least 10 breaches and possibly more in the walls.

[dirtboy]

Instead, they said, soft soil may have given way underneath the walls - a danger a contracting company pointed out to the Army Corps of Engineers in the early 1990s.

Yeah, but the breaches were still OBVIOUSLY the fault of Bush budget cuts last year...

[Bahbah]

but the breaches were still OBVIOUSLY the fault of Bush budget cuts last year...

And he doesn't care about mass transit either.

[dirtboy]

And obviously Nagin and Blanco were so worried about this soft soil that they never got around to determining the legalities of a mandatory evacuation until 48 hours before forecast landfall.

And maybe those buses were parked on soft soil as well and couldn't be moved.

Yeah, that's it. It's gotta be Bush's fault somehow.

[HiTech RedNeck]

Instead, they said, soft soil may have given way underneath the walls - a danger a contracting company pointed out to the Army Corps of Engineers in the early 1990s. In one section of the 17th Street canal, a levee embankment had moved more than 10 meters from its original spot.

I would suppose there were records of the elevation of the tops of the walls. If they have sunk, the conclusion is a no brainer.

[Mind-numbed Robot]

Yep, they would have bought hard soil but Bush wouldn't let them.

More seriouser, I read an article earlier that the contractor told them about the problem and said what he was going to do would not work unless they replaced the present soil levee first and that it would cost X amount of money more. They denied the extra money and it was built as it was.

[Paige]

If this is so, then where is all the money sent to the area since before 1998 to New Orleans to handle such problems? The handling of these funds has been under investigation for quite some time. Furthermore, the Army Corp of Engineers had developed a plan to build a type of wall to keep the waters from coming into Lake Pontchartrain for over 30 years if such a situation were to take place and the environmentalist stopped them in court in 1976.

Once again, these very socialist type law suits and legislations along with corrupt local and state governments on the side of the Democrats have proven to be totally disastrous for this nation. When are people going to learn? I pray they learn long before something much more horrific takes place and tens of thousands die because of the neglect.

[maica]

One reason that the dems are so happy to be accusing the party in power in DC of a "culture of corruption" is because they (the dems) have been living proof of such a condition for years. And there is no better example than NOLA.

Douglas Brinkley, known as a historian [he wrote Kerry's 2000 biography] is writing a book about hurricane Katrina. I wonder how much of the background of the corruption - from levee boards all the way to the governor - he will put in his book.

[Jet Jaguar]

What happened to the Police Force having several hundred members that were on the payroll, but did not exist?

[kipita]

Instead, they said, soft soil may have given way underneath the walls - a danger a contracting company pointed out to the Army Corps of Engineers in the early 1990s.

Soil chemistry 101--hard water makes soft soil and soft water makes hard soil. Hard water primarily has calcium and magnesium.

[putupjob]

The Bush tax cuts required Bush to create a disaster so he dispensed Rove to set explosives in the levees to kill black people. George Bush doesn't care about black people.

[js1138]

Political chemistry 101. Decisions made by Clinton are Bush's fault.

[Jimmy Valentine]

Over at DU, they are convinced that the Levees were dynamited deliberately to flood the ninth ward.

[gulfcoast6]

You mean the 400 buses that flooded out?

[Popman]

Experts Say Soft Soil May Have Caused New Orleans Levee Breaches

That impossible.

Everyone knows white devils in hoods blow up the levee.

[toddlintown]

This news is as old as dirt.

[Popman]

I wonder how much of the background of the corruption - from levee boards all the way to the governor - he will put in his book.

Hopefully all of it, but I suspect it maybe will be enough to cover the inside of a match book with "Bush's fault" written on the strike plate

[Rudder]

The main problem with this area is related to hydraulics. The entire area was created by water flowing slowly from the Mississippi river...it still is (flowing slowly) beneath the delta.

I have a delta on my property at the mouth of a huge ravine created by a creek. We had the idea to dam up the creek and fill the ravine with water. So we got a bulldozer and dug down to find hard land or bedrock, whichever came first. At 7 feet down the soft soil ended and the bulldozer disappeared into 35 feet of water.

[pageonetoo]

At 7 feet down the soft soil ended and the bulldozer disappeared into 35 feet of water...

I hope the dozer was rented, and you bought the damage waiver insurance...

(BTW, what was the first clue that you may be on soft fill?)

[Use It Or Lose It]

From a Lisa Meyers Report:

The unveiling of the Mardi Gras Fountain was celebrated this year in typical New Orleans style. The cost of $2.4 million was paid by the Orleans Levee Board, the state agency whose main job is to protect the levees surrounding New Orleans — the same levees that failed after Katrina hit.

Beyond the fountain, there's the $15 million spent on two overpasses that helped gamblers get to Bally's riverboat casino. Critics tried and failed to put some of that money into flood protection.

Critics charge, for years, the board has paid more attention to marinas, gambling and business than to maintaining the levees. As an example: of 11 construction projects now on the board's Web site, only two are related to flood control.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9342186/

[sgtbono2002]

If the problem is soft soil, doesnt that mean that patching this break dosnt actually do anything? I mean if the problem is soft soil then the entire system is bad, and needs replacement. Isnt the real answer to build on higher ground?

[Rudder]

Bulldozer was owned by my friend and operator...he pulled it out with a huge backhoe. We let it sit in the sun for two weeks, cleaned it up and it was good as new. We, unlike the Corps of Engineers, knew (just from common sense and experience) that a delta would be decidedly soft and unstable soil.

[Thermalseeker]

Over at DU, they are convinced that the Levees were dynamited deliberately to flood the ninth ward.

Well, Calypso Louie said so! You see, Calypso Louie traveled to the Mother Ship in orbit and was told that George Bush personally planted the dynamite to destroy the levee!

[Roux]

In Baton Rouge there's a Softball facility near the Miss River off of GSRI Rd. When the river is high there were sand boils all over the infield. These were caused by water pressure from below.

This is 80 miles up river from NOLA. I can imagine it's worse there.

[chatham]

The right thing to do is allow the lower areas to return to the swamp.
Sending money to these Thugs and charlatans masquerading as Govt. officials is LAUGHABLE if it weren't so SAD and Serious.

Any place depending on mechanical electric means to maintain living conditions is only safe until the next electric OUTAGE.

[MilleniumBug]

The falling bulldozer demonstrates the nextb phase of the problem for New orleans - The China Syndrome. As Jane Fonda showed, overheated politicians will melt through the crust and fall to China. The only solution is to build a giant nuclear reactor in the ninth ward and let it drain the water to China. Feed enough SUV's and water into the sinkhole and maybe it will cool that global warming in the core of the earth. Where's Jules verne when you need him?

[Rudder]

Yep, I know what you're tyalking about. About quarter mile from my delta, before I knew how much water was underground, I thought the land was rising---but maybe, I thought, I just should cut back on the beer and I'd stop having these hallucinations. So I put a greenhouse there---I found out the hard way that the land was definitely rising.

[Rudder]

...overheated politicians will melt through the crust and fall to China.

You and I wish! LOL!

[Roux]

Levees require constant monitoring and maintenance and I'll bet that some of these things weren't done properly.

OTOH, Mother Nature can be a real bitch and when she gets in a mood there's not a whole lot man can do to stop her. Every now and then she teaches us one hell of a lesson.

I remember the damage from both Betsy '65 and Camile '69 and both were devastating.

[gura]

Where's the pics? :-)

[Rudder]

Yeah...it would have been nice to have some pics. But at the time, I was about two feet behind the dozer, all I could focus on was grabbing the operator as he scurried off the back of the sinking dozer.

[leadhead]

how much of the background of the corruption - from levee boards

Heard the Levee Board stopped BoatUS from using their own salvage contractors on boats they insured until BoatUS took them to Court. The Board anointed salvagers were 10x the going National salvage price. The Board also made it known that BoatUS salvagers would have to pay $25k if they wanted to operate in the salvage area.

FBI investigating.

[maica]

Of course I hadn't heard that! I rely on MSM for my "news". /s

Anything that might point to LA corruption will never make the news, unless we share it here on FR or some other conservative outlets.

[pageonetoo]

I found a good high bluff, 20 minutes, by boat, from the Atlantic. With steel roll-down shutters, and proper roof-to-ground linkage, my place, on the White Oak River, weathered with only a few shingles lost. They were fairly new, and the tabs hadn't sealed well enough, I guess.

I am building on the side of a mountain (WV), and have a base of shale. But, I am from SE NC, from Wilmington (my birthplace) to Beaufort (Grandfather's birthplace), where the rivers meet the sea.

I built a pond, by digging into the hillside, where water was springing forth. In addition, I dammed it, across a seasonal stream. It covers around two acres, and reflects the sunlight into my underground home, being built.

We used trackloaders, and bulldozers. We dug with a trackhoe, and used an old road roller (eBay, bought for $435, sold on eBay for $815) to compact it, after lining it with clay.

We have a good local fish stocking place (Zett's Tri-State Fish Farm & Hatchery Rt. 2, Box 218K Inwood, WV 25428 (304) 229-3654, no website), and for a little over a grand you can do fine. delivered.) They sell a complete package, to fill your requirements. You should hear the cacophany of frogs, in the cool summer evenings (fish food)... with a fine cigar, good cognac, good conversation, and looking forward to retiring, with your sweetie...

[jeffers]

You cut seven feet with a dozer with a backhoe standing by? How long was this dam going to be, it sounds akin to the grand couleee?

They found 40 foot deep scours at the 17th breach. On both sides of the canal.

[SauronOfMordor]

More seriouser, I read an article earlier that the contractor told them about the problem and said what he was going to do would not work unless they replaced the present soil levee first and that it would cost X amount of money more. They denied the extra money and it was built as it was.

And the reason it won't be persued by the media is that it happened during the Clinton Administration

[Rudder]

The dam would've been about 1700 feet long.

In retrospect, the operator would have been much better off starting out with the hoe since his intitial goal was to simply find "bottom." But, at the time his hoe wasn't on my property and he had just finished putting in some roads I wanted and used the dozer for all that work. When the doze sank it hung up (for a few moments) on the sides of the hole it had created and that gave us enough time to hook a chain on the towing pintle. The guy drove home and brought back his hoe and pulled the sucker straight up and out.

[Rudder]

I am building on the side of a mountain (WV), and have a base of shale.
I built a pond, by digging into the hillside, where water was springing forth. In addition, I dammed it, across a seasonal stream. It covers around two acres, and reflects the sunlight into my underground home, being built.

WV? I live in Ohio on the upper edge of the Ohio Valley, 50 miles from Wheeling.

Re: your pond: Your geology sounds a good bit like mine, I have lots of shale (my house is also on a shale mountainside) with water coming out of every nook and cranny. Below my house is the bottom land of about 15 acres and everywhere you dig, once you go below 7 feet you find an underground river. I told the guys from the electric company to be careful when they installed the poles, but they had to learn the hard way. Above my house, for about 6-8 feet is more shale. Above that is a layer of clay of about 20 feet then from there to the top (1,000 feet) is sand of all sizes from huge (house-size) boulders to beach like sand. The top of the hill looks like a sandy beach and I've got a house site there with underground electric and phone, septic and underground water line. I had to put together a pumping station to raise the pressure from my well to get the water up there, but it works fine. I expect in two years' time I'll have the house on the hill completed.

Where in WVa?

[sono]

Was the "barge collision" story debunked?

[pageonetoo]

Where in WVa?

Near Martinsburg. I can drive to visit my Dad, in DC, in about an hour and and a half... I'm 7 hours from NC, on a good day. One night, I spent four hours waiting to clear the debris from three trucks on I-81, at the VA/WV line, just as I started a trip... We left late (10:30 pm), to avoid traffic... Oh, well!

Our mountains here are just jumbles of rocks, with some volunteer trees' leavings for cover. It never ceases to amaze me, when I see a tree growing out from a split rock.

[Mind-numbed Robot]

And the reason it won't be persued by the media is that it happened during the Clinton Administration

Although this article mentions 1990, which would be the first Bush, I seem to remember it was in 1996. That would be Slick.

[WasDougsLamb]

Instead, they said, soft soil may have given way underneath the walls - a danger a contracting company pointed out to the Army Corps of Engineers in the early 1990s. In one section of the 17th Street canal, a levee embankment had moved more than 10 meters from its original spot.

The experts also said they found at least 10 breaches and possibly more in the walls.


---Maybe instead of embezzling the money they should have used it to fix the levee problem? IMHO



http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1499358/posts

[jeffers]

Gotcha.

When I was digging my pond, after a certain depth the stuff was coming out so sloppy that I couldn't keep it off the outriggers. When I went to lift them, there was enough weight holding them down that the main wheels collapsed the bank and I though that I was going for a swim, along with a quarter million dollar hoe that wasn't mine.

It took the bucket and arm, the blade on the front end loader, all the power I could pump into the drive wheels, and more hands and feet than I thought I had to get her out.

Got another pond planned, about 1000' by 150' by maybe 5 feet deep, with the fill going to swale out around two sides of a walkout basement. I need to figure out a way to get a pan in here over one lane bridges only rated for two tons. Making my own ford looks to be the only option, but I'll to do some smooth talking to get permission, because these drainage ditches run 15 to 20 feet deep.

[SaveTheChief]

I wonder if Cheney (with prompting from Karl Rove, of course) secretly had Halliburton replace existing levee soil with softer soil that would put the "poor black" areas of New Orleans at risk.

[jeffers]

There's a barge inside the floodwall at the southern Industrial Canal breach on the east side, which is generally thought to have punched the hole there to begin with. I disagree, and think the same mechanism described by the ASCE caused that one, and that the opportunistic barge floated in afterwards.

There may be more to it than that, the barge may have initiated the process, but the possibilities get pretty complex, so I'm going to wait to get into that until I can use imagery to help illustrate what may have happened.

This story refers to the 17th Street and London Canal breaches. There have been rumors that a small construction barge might have caused the 17th Street Canal breach, but I've looked and looked for it on aerial images and can't find a sign of it.

There is however, a big piece of the inner embankment shoved backwards about 30 feet just as they describe there.

[Jimmy Valentine]

True! He knows so much! About the "Big wheel" ? that orbits over the earth.

The rest of us are pygmies next to that man!

[Rudder]

Ahhh yes...life in the country.