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Dinosaur-Bird Flap Ruffles Feathers
Yahoo!News ^ | October 10, 2005 | E.J. Mundell

Posted on 10/11/2005 4:07:11 AM PDT by mlc9852

MONDAY, Oct. 10 (HealthDay News) -- Head to the American Museum of Natural History's Web site, and you'll see the major draw this fall is a splashy exhibit on dinosaurs.

And not just any dinosaurs, but two-legged carnivorous, feathered "theropods" like the 30-inch-tall Bambiraptor -- somewhat less cuddly than its namesake.

The heyday of the theropods, which included scaly terrors like T. rex and velociraptor, stretched from the late Triassic (220 million years ago) to the late Cretaceous (65 million years ago) periods.

(Excerpt) Read more at news.yahoo.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society
KEYWORDS: bambiraptor; cretaceous; dinosaur; dinosaurs; godsgravesglyphs; hitchcock; paleontology; science; theropods; triassic; tyrannasaurusrex; velociraptor
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To: newsgatherer

Hang in there newsgatherer. There is a difference between intelligence and education. The education is worthless without intelligence to decipher the wheat from the chaff. Some are so full of their education, that wisdom flies out the window. Wisdom is a wonderful thing, but in all thy wisdom, get understanding. Sound familiar?


101 posted on 10/11/2005 10:42:51 AM PDT by Pure Country
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To: Matchett-PI
I have yet to see a case, for evolution, based upon Common Parts, that did not make a better case for a Common Creator.

Jake

102 posted on 10/11/2005 10:50:31 AM PDT by newsgatherer
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To: Pure Country

Is that DaVinci Code for "stay strong my ignorant brother"?


103 posted on 10/11/2005 10:51:18 AM PDT by jayef
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To: Pure Country
It does, thanks,

Jake

104 posted on 10/11/2005 10:52:52 AM PDT by newsgatherer
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To: jayef
numerological placemarker
105 posted on 10/11/2005 10:54:26 AM PDT by js1138 (Great is the power of steady misrepresentation.)
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To: jayef
You arguing from the fallacy of "Appeal to Authority"

And you are not? Pulllleeeeaaaassssseeeee. What's really funny is that the one friend that I referred to taught evolution at a large state university. He started looking at the logic behind what he was teaching and was totally embarrassed. He has said so many times that evolutionists have a thought process that they feel is far superior, but is just steeped in ignorance. I won't even go into my credentials, but according to man's standard, the ole IQ is waaaay out there. So please, don't talk down to me, you have no idea who you are talking to. I find your comments quite humorous. Arrogance is very typical of evolutionists. They always resort to trying to convince everyone of their superior intellect and if another scientist disagrees with them, they are deemed dumb.

Can't wait to hear the response to this from those educated beyond their intelligence.

106 posted on 10/11/2005 10:57:40 AM PDT by Pure Country
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To: Pure Country
They always resort to trying to convince everyone of their superior intellect and if another scientist disagrees with them, they are deemed dumb.

...

I won't even go into my credentials, but according to man's standard, the ole IQ is waaaay out there. So please, don't talk down to me, you have no idea who you are talking to.

LOL

107 posted on 10/11/2005 11:03:37 AM PDT by Liberal Classic (No better friend, no worse enemy. Semper Fi.)
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To: newsgatherer
Do you know the guide I am referring to? Where you there? Do you know every guide in ever museum in the world? Do you know any of the kids or parents that were there?

That's a good point. Why don't you post the name of the museum and the name (or a description) of the guide you described? That way, everyone here will know what museum is disseminating information like this, surely interesting to those on both sides of this debate.
108 posted on 10/11/2005 11:04:58 AM PDT by Stone Mountain
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To: newsgatherer

I figured you would recognize it, but I doubt that some others do. I have to laugh. I taught discrete mathematics at an Ivy League school and I am always amazed at the superiority of some when they think that they can yell louder and longer...and that makes them smarter.


109 posted on 10/11/2005 11:05:01 AM PDT by Pure Country
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To: Stone Mountain
Why don't you post the name of the museum and the name (or a description) of the guide you described? That way, everyone here will know what museum is disseminating information like this, surely interesting to those on both sides of this debate.

Don't remember the guides name, older about 65 or so, proably retired. Kinda thin male. Boston Museum of Science.

But, having been there on more than one occasion, it is not just him, seems they all say the same thing. Kinda like canned ham.

110 posted on 10/11/2005 11:17:01 AM PDT by newsgatherer
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To: Pure Country

What is there to respond to? You know this guy with credentials and a high IQ who says evolution is ridiculous. I mean, what could possibly trump that? None of the misfits I know could possibly challenge this guy you know. I'll have to talk to this other guy that I know who I think is pretty smart. Maybe he knows some guys who think Creationism is astonishingly stupid.


111 posted on 10/11/2005 11:26:58 AM PDT by jayef
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To: newsgatherer

Is he friends with the short fat guy who gives tours there on Wednesdays? Because I know that guy and he says the old thin guy is a known crackpot.


112 posted on 10/11/2005 11:29:19 AM PDT by jayef
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To: newsgatherer
When you say millions and millions of years, you are calling God a liar! When you say we evolved, you are calling God a liar! Read Genesis chapter one and two. God says In the beginning He made everything. He says He did it in six literal 24 hour days, Read Exodus 2-:11, written not by man but by the very finger of God.

What physical proof do you possess that this 'book' was written by the finger of God.

Do you possess handwriting samples that we may compare to that of the Almighty's?

DNA evidence?

IOW, please show proof that the Bible isn't just a well-written novel.

113 posted on 10/11/2005 11:46:13 AM PDT by Ol' Dan Tucker (Karen Ryan reporting...)
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To: newsgatherer

I think you're talking about macroevolution (which is a philosophy of science (religion) because it's not testable/verifiable) -not microevolution - which is verifiable, testable science which occurs every day.


114 posted on 10/11/2005 12:07:18 PM PDT by Matchett-PI ( "History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid." -- Dwight Eisenhower)
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To: newsgatherer; Stone Mountain
Don't remember the guides name, older about 65 or so, proably retired. Kinda thin male. Boston Museum of Science.

This is the Boston Museum of Science that's located on the Charles River, right?

And approximately when was your last visit when you heard the guides say this sort of stuff? Season of the year and year will be close enough.

Were these paid chartered tours, or the free public tours conducted by the guides who are available daily? Or both?

115 posted on 10/11/2005 1:34:42 PM PDT by Ichneumon (Certified pedantic coxcomb)
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To: jayef
What is there to respond to? You know this guy with credentials and a high IQ who says evolution is ridiculous. I mean, what could possibly trump that? None of the misfits I know could possibly challenge this guy you know. I'll have to talk to this other guy that I know who I think is pretty smart. Maybe he knows some guys who think Creationism is astonishingly stupid.

I know a guy on the street corner, says he used to be Galactus, Eater of Worlds, and he says you are both wrong. You wanna challenge Galactus? Huh?

116 posted on 10/11/2005 1:54:37 PM PDT by RogueIsland
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To: Pure Country
To quote them, "Open up your eyes and look around."

What a stunning rebuttal to the last 150 years of research and observations. The entire theory of evolution just came crashing down.
117 posted on 10/11/2005 3:32:04 PM PDT by Dimensio (http://angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif <-- required reading before you use your next apostrophe!)
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To: Ichneumon

I thought Archaeopteryx was exposed as a fraud. I found this after a google search: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2002/11/1120_021120_raptor.html


Don't you think this cuts into your credibilty a little bit?


118 posted on 10/11/2005 3:53:58 PM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: Dimensio
What a stunning rebuttal to the last 150 years of research and observations. The entire theory of evolution just came crashing down.

WELL FINALLY! :) No need for a rebuttal, time will tell. Scientists'll get it right eventually!

119 posted on 10/11/2005 3:56:32 PM PDT by Pure Country
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To: Oztrich Boy
Penguins fly. They just do it in a denser fluid than air.

good point.
120 posted on 10/11/2005 4:01:08 PM PDT by evilrightwingconspirator (The ability to speak (or think) does not make you intelligent. Bill Clinton is a prime example)
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To: metmom
I thought Archaeopteryx was exposed as a fraud.

Did you read the article you linked? The article is about a fraud known as the Archeaoraptor, not Archaeopteryx. Two different things.

121 posted on 10/11/2005 4:03:20 PM PDT by RogueIsland
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To: RogueIsland

Spelling correction: "Archaeoraptor". My keyboard is obviously defective.


122 posted on 10/11/2005 4:05:07 PM PDT by RogueIsland
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To: r9etb; Michael_Michaelangelo
Given the subject of the article in question, it's more than slightly ironic that you should be posting your "theropod dinosaur to bird evolutionary transition" thingy on this particular thread.

There's nothing ironic about it at all. My post is based on the latest evidence and best fits all available research. Feduccia's fringe conclusion is not. As even the "article in question" admits, the theropod dinosaur origins of birds is "the prevailing theory" -- and it got that way because the copious evidence and decades of research has convinced the vast majority of biologists of the correctness of that conclusion. The only significant hold-outs are Feduccia and one other guy (Miller), and they frequently commit widely recognized errors in their methods.

For example, Feduccia has been caught relying on obsolete findings when newer, more complete information has superceded it, and so forth, which is a BIG no-no in science (it's grounds for legitimate considerations of incompetence and/or being dishonestly selective about your facts) so I don't have a lot of confidence in his reliability on that topic.

For one specific, Feduccia keeps harping on the "2-3-4" pattern of bird digits, as if that matter is settled in his favor (and as if it would actually be a major obstacle for bird evolution even if it were). But even the article which started this thread, you'll see that he relies on Hinchcliffe:

But the study's third author, Dr. Richard Hinchliffe -- a recognized expert in vertebrate limb development -- "points out that there are five different assessments showing that the bird hand has the three middle fingers left," the "2-3-4" morphology, Feduccia said.
The problem here is that Hinchcliffe's last research paper on this topic was in **1984**, which is ancient history as far as genetics goes. There have been ENORMOUS strides in analytical genetics since then. But Feduccia is still clinging to a twenty-year old study (apparently because he likes its conclusion), while *ignoring* many subsequent findings which use much more reliable analystical methods to find answers to that issue, such as:
The digits of the wing of birds are 1, 2, and 3. A review (J Exp Zoolog B Mol Dev Evol. 2005 May 15;304(3):206-19)
Feduccia is either inexcusably careless, or he's picking-and-choosing results based on what he *wants* the results to be, instead of on the latest, most accurate findings. And neither option inspires confidence. There are similar problems with Feduccia's other points which he argues in order to try to support his very minority view on the matter of bird evolution.

Do a Google on Feduccia's name, skip the fawning creationist websites (they love anyone who "bucks the evolutionist party line" no matter how poorly, even when he still espouses Darwinian evolution as Feduccia does), skip Feduccia's own personal pages, and most of what you're left with is pages of folks pointing out Feduccia's many mistakes on the subject.

For example:

The problems with The Origin and Evolution of Birds. Discussion of the problems with hypotheses made by Dr. Alan Feduccia in his new book on bird evolution, plus general discussion on the dinosaurian affinities birds.

Gregory Paul's comments about Feduccia's bird digit paper

The Continuing Debate Over Avian Origins (A review of Feduccia's book)

Perhaps you should consider retiring it for a bit....

I have given it all due consideration, and concluded that there is no need to revise my post. It contains no errors, fits all the evidence, and is not contradicted by anyone's findings, not even Feduccia's. If you have any actual evidence to the contrary, feel free to present it.

123 posted on 10/11/2005 4:25:38 PM PDT by Ichneumon (Certified pedantic coxcomb)
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To: Free Baptist

Huh, "Dr." Hovind? I thought he was in jail for tax evasion. Either that, or riding his pet dinosaurs around his yard.

And by the way, you should never refer to that scoundrel as "Doctor" seeing as though his doctorate was given to him from a diploma mill from a garage. I'm not saying one must be a phd to make a salient point, but I am calling Hovind a despicable liar.


124 posted on 10/11/2005 4:27:21 PM PDT by whattajoke (I'm back... kinda.)
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To: metmom
I thought Archaeopteryx was exposed as a fraud.

You thought incorrectly.

I found this after a google search: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2002/11/1120_021120_raptor.html Don't you think this cuts into your credibilty a little bit?

No, but it cuts into *yours*, since you're apparently unable to notice something as elementary as the fact that "Archaeoraptor" is not the same thing as "Archaeopteryx". Dyslexic much?

125 posted on 10/11/2005 4:29:50 PM PDT by Ichneumon (Certified pedantic coxcomb)
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To: Pure Country; Ichneumon

Just for the record, I'm considerably older than Pure Country and no one that I knew ever believed that polio "came out of the ground" it was known to be a contagious virus.


126 posted on 10/11/2005 5:00:05 PM PDT by From many - one.
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To: From many - one.; Pure Country

And I took discrete mathematics at an Ivy League school and I'm fairly certain my prof, nor any in the department were YEC's.


127 posted on 10/11/2005 5:39:03 PM PDT by whattajoke (I'm back... kinda.)
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To: RogueIsland
I know a guy on the street corner, says he used to be Galactus, Eater of Worlds, and he says you are both wrong. You wanna challenge Galactus? Huh?

I wouldn't. But I would put Marv from Sin City up against him.
128 posted on 10/11/2005 5:43:56 PM PDT by microgood
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To: metmom
Ironic thing about the archaeoraptor affair: The fossil turned out to be half of an early bird and half of an already known feathered dinosaur called microraptor. So even after allowing for the fraud by the Chinese farmer who pasted the thing together, we still have a feathered dinosaur!
129 posted on 10/11/2005 6:21:50 PM PDT by jennyp (WHAT I'M READING NOW: Art of Unix Programming by Raymond)
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To: Pure Country
You probably still believe the scientists who told my mom to keep the kids inside because polio comes out of the ground and if they don't go outside, they won't get it. Don't know how old you are, but I'm 55 and that's what the "scientists" told in my youth.

I find this particularly amusing since I'm just a few years older than you, and my father was among the first health officers to authorize mass immunizations against polio. Polio is mostly spread by people who don't wash their hands after using the toilet or changing a diaper. I'm sure you will be amused to know that when the oral vaccine came out it was in short supply, but whole families could be immunized by giving one dose to an infant, because the vaccine was contagious in the same way as the disease.

Your recollection of the science of the day is a false memory.

130 posted on 10/11/2005 6:32:18 PM PDT by js1138 (Great is the power of steady misrepresentation.)
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To: Ichneumon
They wave away walking catfish, too. "Why, it's a special creation, doncha know."

Think of the advantages of holding to this belief. It's easy to remember, saves oodles of time at the library, and can't be disproved.

Just a reg'lar tour de farce.

131 posted on 10/11/2005 6:49:44 PM PDT by Gumlegs
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To: Ichneumon

Your ignorance really showed with that post ;-)


132 posted on 10/11/2005 7:57:52 PM PDT by jayef
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To: GadareneDemoniac
Everybody in "Science" knows that the little dinosaurs became birds so they could get away from the big mean T-Rex's! Why don't you believe the scientists? They're always right!

Now you clearly don't understand science, but that doesn't keep you from pontificating on the topic. Why don't you go back to school and understand what it is you're talking about so you can actually be persuasive?

133 posted on 10/11/2005 8:03:48 PM PDT by Alter Kaker (Whatever tears one may shed, in the end one always blows one’s nose.-Heine)
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To: js1138
Your recollection of the science of the day is a false memory.

You all become authorities on everything. First, no museum guide would ever say....now you are saying that you know what every scientist and doctor in the country was saying about polio. And no....my recollection is not a false memory. We DID have to stay indoors and not go out. There was a fear in the country of this very thing. So please, don't assume that you can talk for all--I don't care how old you are.

134 posted on 10/11/2005 8:47:54 PM PDT by Pure Country
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To: js1138

Oh, and my kids say that I am older than dirt...how old does that make you? :)


135 posted on 10/11/2005 8:50:54 PM PDT by Pure Country
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To: newsgatherer; Pure Country; jayef; Ichneumon; megatherium
I am amused reading the anti GOD, anti BIBLE rantings by some on this post. However there has been one question this discussion has left out. The question is, What makes up a Fossil?

Are dinosaur fossils the bones of these animals? NO, fossils are mineral deposits that have leached into and taken the place/shape of these bones. The bone material is long gone.

Then a question that begs an answer is, how long does fossilization take? Laboratory experiment have produced fossilized bone in about one year.

What are the prime ingredients in the formation of fossils? Besides the bone and a mineral source, lots of WATER is necessary for fossilization.

One thing most everyone agrees on is, sometime in the past a catastrophic event killed large numbers of prehistoric animals and left a fossil record.

(Now here is where I lose the darwin wingnuts, Heh, Heh)

What BIBLICAL event spoke of large quantities of water and the death of every air breathing animal (except those in an vessel known as the ARK)? In addition the post flood world was radically different than the preflood world. Possibly including volcanoes and over 19K ft mountains where there were none before.

THAT'S RIGHT THE WORLDWIDE BIBLICAL FLOOD CAUSED THE FOSSIL RECORD. THE FLOOD HAPPENED ABOUT 4000 YEARS AGO!

CASE CLOSED. GOD/BIBLE-HOMERUN.....darwin-0

One more interesting thing about the BIBLE, it spoke about arrogant godless people like we see today.

(2 Ti 3:7) Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

(2 Ti 4:4) And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

If that isn't enough, the New Testament event where JESUS raised Lazarus from the dead. (John 11:39) Jesus said, Take ye away the stone. Martha, the sister of him that was dead, saith unto him, Lord, by this time he stinketh: for he hath been [dead] four days. At four days Lazarus was decomposing. NOW FOR YOU darwing nuts, JESUS in picoseconds (no evolution needed) fully restored life into a purifying dead body. So, seems to me JESUS being both GOD and man could easily create the universe in SIX DAYS. He said so in Genesis and I believe him!

(Phl 2:9-11)Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth; And [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father

PRAISE THE LORD FOR MAKING HIMSELF KNOWN TO THIS UNWORTHY SOUL!

136 posted on 10/11/2005 9:57:18 PM PDT by OKWNORD
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To: OKWNORD
(Now here is where I lose the darwin wingnuts, Heh, Heh)

That would be because you go off into la-la land with all kinds of ficticious supporting "evidence" for your bogus claims.

Wait, no, you were doing that before. Sorry, nevermind.

CASE CLOSED. GOD/BIBLE-HOMERUN.....darwin-0

How was the "CASE CLOSED"? What evidence do you have for your claims, and how do you counter the claims opposing you?
137 posted on 10/11/2005 10:53:07 PM PDT by Dimensio (http://angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif <-- required reading before you use your next apostrophe!)
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To: Pure Country; js1138
You all become authorities on everything.

We do when we spend a great deal of time and effort educating ourselves, yes.

First, no museum guide would ever say....

That's right, they wouldn't (not counting the "Creationist Museums", which misrepresent actual science). Newsgatherer was fabricating false stories.

now you are saying that you know what every scientist and doctor in the country was saying about polio.

That's not what he said, try reading it again.

And no....my recollection is not a false memory. We DID have to stay indoors and not go out.

Because Polio is contagious. Duh. When you stay indoors, you avoid other people who may transmit it to you.

There was a fear in the country of this very thing.

Fear of leaving the house when Polio was rampant. Sure. But not for the reason you claimed in your earlier post. Please support your claim that "scientists" within your lifetime stated that "polio comes out of the ground". Feel free to cite any historical book, document, or other contemporaneous account you choose.

I strongly suspect that you're either misremembering, or you (or your mother) had original misheard/misunderstood, doctors using the euphemism of "soil" for "feces". (As in the phrase, "to soil yourself".) This euphemism was even more common half a century ago, which would make it a likely expression back in your youth, when doctors would have (correctly) warned people to avoid "soiled" items (including baby diapers) and other sources of fecal contamination, since that's the primary means by which polio is transmitted.

You or your mother may well have misunderstood a warning about Polio being found in "soil" (i.e. feces) as meaning in "dirt" (i.e. "in the ground").

Or, in areas without modern flush toilets, doctors may indeed have warned (correctly) that the ground and/or groundwater may be contaminated with infected fecal material. If so, this is hardly a good example for you to use to try to ridicule scientists, since that would have been (and still remains) *valid* advice.

138 posted on 10/12/2005 1:29:03 AM PDT by Ichneumon (Certified pedantic coxcomb)
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To: Ichneumon

Sorry, we lived way out in the country--very far out in the country-- and not much contact with other people. Your comment not applicable.

Your comment about museum personel is absurd. Where is your scientific method in this? You've made an asumption and backed it up with your opinion. You claim to know all there is to know about all in the country. Laughable!

We did have indoor plumbing.

And don't "DUH" me. Your arrogance is amazing. Are you a Democrat?





139 posted on 10/12/2005 2:30:17 AM PDT by Pure Country
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To: Ichneumon

You're being trolled, big time.


140 posted on 10/12/2005 3:55:58 AM PDT by PatrickHenry ( I won't respond to a troll, crackpot, retard, or incurable ignoramus.)
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To: Pure Country; Dimensio; js1138; jennyp; From many - one.; PatrickHenry
Sorry, we lived way out in the country--very far out in the country-- and not much contact with other people. Your comment not applicable.

Then feel free to support your claim, as I suggested, by citing any contemporaneous or historical document of any sort which backs up your odd claims about what "scientists" allegedly said about Polio.

It's at least vaguely within the realm of possibility that some moron, somewhere -- perhaps one of your neighbors -- passed along an old wives tale about "polio from the ground" when you were a kid. But you didn't present "polio from the ground" as something you had just heard when you were young, you used it as an alleged example of "scientists" arriving at some absurd conclusion and disseminating it to the public. You were clearly trying to claim that there wasn't just one crackpot somewhere which held such an odd belief, you were claiming that this was a relatively widespread notion among the scientific community, and that they were obviously fools for believing such a stupid thing. If your claim is true, it shouldn't be hard to find records of such a position in journals, or public health advice printed in newspapers, or published announcements to that effect, etc. Go for it.

Lacking that, and given that several of us on this thread are quite familiar with the history of the epidemiology of Polio during this century and yet have not heard of such a notion being conventional wisdom at any time, we're going to have to call BS on your claim.

If you *do* manage to document it, I'll be quite happy to apologize for my skepticism and you can rub my nose in it all you like. That should be sufficient motiviation for you to spend a bit of time hunting for support for your assertion. But remember, showing the existence of an old wives tale to that effect isn't sufficient, you'll have to show that "scientists" were in the habit of giving such advice, since that *was* your original claim.

Your comment about museum personel is absurd.

Would you like to bet money on that? Say, twenty bucks?

Where is your scientific method in this? You've made an asumption and backed it up with your opinion.

I have more than that.

You claim to know all there is to know about all in the country.

No, I don't claim that at all. Stop make false charges against me. I don't *need* to "know all there is to know about all in the country" in order to know that what Newsgatherer claimed he heard museum guides say is entirely implausible on too many points to be even remotely possible. It has the form of the usual "creationist just so" story, made up from nothing but his own false preconceptions about how science "actually" works and how science exhibits "must" be presented. It has all the hallmarks of creationist fantasies about such presentations, and none of the characteristics of real-life museum exhibits or science presentations.

To those of us who *are* intimately acquainted with museums and the science behind the dating of fossils and other artifacts, his account is quite clearly simply made up -- and made up very poorly, due to his ignorance and misconceptions.

It's as clear as the obverse case would be if I were to claim that I had once visited a prominent Catholic church where the priest spoke from the pulpit in blue jeans and had made statements "admitting" that God was a fraud and that the story of King David on the ark with the animals wasn't workable, all while he spread Cheez Whiz on the eucharist wafers...

Anyone who had any *real* experience with Catholic churches and their practices would instantly recognize this as a fabricated piece of nonsense, too flawed on too many levels to even remotely be something that actually happened. And so it is with those of us who actually are quite familiar with museums, fossils, geology, and dating methods. Newsgatherer just made it up. He's lying. His story has far too many holes, of far too preposterous a nature, to be something that actually happened to him, not just once but several times, as he claims.

And don't "DUH" me.

This coming from the guy whose very first words on this thread were, "Give it up Ichneumon, you're sounding like an idiot"?

I'll make you a deal -- stop behaving like, well, yourself, and I'll stop DUHing you.

Your arrogance is amazing.

Thank you.

Good thing *you* haven't been arrogant yourself on this thread. Oh, wait...

Are you a Democrat?

Not at all. I am, however, very knowledgeable on a number of topics, and I don't take too kindly to those who aren't when they just make stuff up or speak complete nonsense in a belligerent manner. As the old saying goes, "better to remain quiet and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt." Actually, I have no problem at all with people who are not very well versed on a subject. We're all neophytes on various topics. What I *do* take exception to is the people who are extremely unfamiliar with a topic, then use their delusions of competence to lecture, berate, "correct", and ridicule those people who do know the field. You know, like the way creationists who couldn't tell a retrovirus from a retroposon constantly attack the entire field and all professional practitioners of evolutionary biology, along with several other fields of science.

141 posted on 10/12/2005 4:20:55 AM PDT by Ichneumon (Certified pedantic coxcomb)
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To: microgood
But I would put Marv from Sin City up against him.

I would put Jessica Alba from Sin City up against me, but the restraining order prohibits it.

142 posted on 10/12/2005 4:32:27 AM PDT by RogueIsland
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To: Ichneumon
I am, however, very knowledgeable on a number of topics

But can you calculate the airspeed of a European Swallow carrying a coconut?

143 posted on 10/12/2005 4:35:39 AM PDT by RogueIsland
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To: RogueIsland

:-)

I can.
Assuming an adult swallow and a mature coconut, of course.....
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144 posted on 10/12/2005 5:15:30 AM PDT by From many - one.
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To: Pure Country
We DID have to stay indoors and not go out. There was a fear in the country of this very thing. So please, don't assume that you can talk for all--I don't care how old you are.

This memory is correct. Public swimming pools were closed and people were indeed fearful. I don't believe there has ever been a comparable state of fear in this country, not even after 911.

What you lied about was the state of science. I know exactly what scientists were saying because my father was in charge of relaying the scientific position to the people of the state most affected by the polio epidemic.

Science knew what the disease was and how it spread. What they didn't know, prior to Salk, was how to protect children except by self-quarantine.

Polio was also the first epidemic disease of the rich. Most previous epidemics were weighted against the poor. You might remember a wealthy future president who was paralyzed by polio. There are some theories that suggest exactly the opposite of what you have claimed. They claim that poor hygiene (dirt) toughens up a child's immune system and is, in the long run, useful. It was noted that India had no paralytic polio.

Another little known nugget is that the Salk vaccine was a public health failure. Every single person had to have a shot, and everyone had to have a booster shot every year. I personally had four.

This seemed to protect those who got the shots, but it didn't stop the epidemic. The epidemic wasn't stopped until the live vaccine was used, and it worked because, like the disease, it spread itself.

145 posted on 10/12/2005 5:26:20 AM PDT by js1138 (Great is the power of steady misrepresentation.)
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To: Alter Kaker

May I suggest that you go back to school and stop by the department that teaches logical thinking and ask them what "Reductio ad absurdam" means? I rarely read these stupid evolution threads, and even more seldom post on them, but I couldn't resist an attempt at humor. Sorry that your belief system is so weak that you can't take a little jab.

Why do evolution proponents immediately get hysterical, go on the attack, and assume that anyone who doesn't believe the official party line is an uneducated dunce? Has science become that Stalinist?

Let me propose a test for you: you create a protocol whereby one species turns into another species - I'm not talking about a minor variation like green birds having blue offspring or slightly different beaks, I'm talking a completely new species - like a reptile into a bird. Then let's take that protocol to several independent labs and have them repeat the experiment under controlled conditions. If your protocol works, I'll start worshipping your god. If it doesn't work, YOU go back to school and learn the difference between "philosophy" and true "science".


146 posted on 10/12/2005 5:32:30 AM PDT by GadareneDemoniac
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To: OKWNORD
Want something to ponder?

It took God a grand total of six 24 hour days to create everything, and everything is pretty cool, but, think about this.

Some 1,973 years ago Jesus said: Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in Me.
In My Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto Myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
(John 14:1-3 ACP/KJV)

6 days to make earth, all the heavens, and everything on and in them and it is a pretty cool place.

BUT, Just for a minute try to imagine what our paradise, the mansion that Jesus is now building for us must be like, for He has been working on it for some 1,973 years so far.

I feel bad for the evolutionist, I feel bad for anyone that thinks this earth is worth being called home.

A man much wiser than me said: "For those of us who are truly Born Again Washed in the Blood of the Lamb Christians, this time on earth is the closest we ever come to hell, but for those who are unsaved, this time on earth is their heaven."

Jake

147 posted on 10/12/2005 6:13:15 AM PDT by newsgatherer
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To: GadareneDemoniac
Let me propose a test for you: you create a protocol whereby one species turns into another species - I'm not talking about a minor variation like green birds having blue offspring or slightly different beaks, I'm talking a completely new species - like a reptile into a bird. Then let's take that protocol to several independent labs and have them repeat the experiment under controlled conditions. If your protocol works, I'll start worshipping your god. If it doesn't work, YOU go back to school and learn the difference between "philosophy" and true "science".

Nice distraction with the "worshiping your god" routine. I love theatrical history -- I think this particular joke dates from about 1859.

But before anyone wastes any time trying your proposal, why not show us somewhere in the scientific literature where this is predicted by the Theory of Evolution?

If this sort of thing were demonstrated to have happened, it would disprove the Theory of Evolution.

I have an alternate proposal: How about learning something about the theory you're rejecting before you post again?< /holding breath >

148 posted on 10/12/2005 6:20:51 AM PDT by Gumlegs
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To: Gumlegs

And the Keebler Elves! Cough those up, Mr. Guy! I want the Keebler Elves, singing and dancing the Charleston, and baking those little cookies everyone loves! And I want them to do it all on the back of a unicorn! You produce all that, fella, and THEN maybe I'll think about signing up for your theory!


149 posted on 10/12/2005 6:30:07 AM PDT by Senator Bedfellow
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To: Ichneumon

Just a thought:

Influenza (Italian for influence) was originally thought to be from "bad air"...maybe this is a conflation of ideas. Not by scientists, of course, but possibly, by those who "heard it from" some local "authority" or the other.

As for the museum guide quotes, I find them totally irrelevant to anything.
Two choices:

1.it happened more or less as stated....guide needs more training in not getting enmeshed in disruptive creationist claptrap;
or...

2. it did not happen as stated....we need more practice in early troll alerts.

I wonder about the certainty of the quote: "16.7 -100 million". What seems more likely would be that the 16.7 was 67. Assuming, of course that there was such a statement made at all.

I also wonder about training kids to go to a museum and make fun of the volunteer or low paid guides. What other purpose could there be since they were not going to believe anything they were told?


150 posted on 10/12/2005 6:39:30 AM PDT by From many - one.
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