Skip to comments.Dissolve the President's Tax Reform Panel
Posted on 10/15/2005 12:45:23 AM PDT by beyond the sea
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Thanks for the reminder. I had forgotten about that. I thought it was here for me.
So now the suggestion is to raise our taxes by removing the tax credit for home mortgages!
Despite the differences of opinions, I believe most FReepers are on the same side.
You are quite welcome!
Never. Like I said, a change like this in the deduction would probably depress sales of expensive properties, or at least reduce the size of mortgages.
But my opinion remains the same that this particular proposal will not affect most Americans, and those Americans whom it will effect will have a variety of options in which they'll be able to take advantage of the proposed reduction in the deduction up to the limit, and whatever funds that are no longer used to purchase property will be redirected toward other investments, or used to purchase fewer properties with larger down payments and smaller mortgages.
I wholeheartedly concur!
Err no, that was $15 BILLION to Africa, not million.
When I rants, I rants!
Wait'll you see my nextun, Bigun!
"this won't affect most Americans"
then the panel really DIDN'T do its job!
For some insight into what a lot of voters thought about the performance of the Tax Panel, check this thread:
And these were less than one day's comments. I can hardly wait to see more.
But WITW (Why In The World) should this or any other government have the ability to futz with our economic lives by this manner oif intrusiveness when there is a clearly better way via the FairTax?
I really hate this government!
My biggest beef with the Fair Tax system is that at the end of the year most Americans won't have any idea how much they paid in taxes. With a Flat Tax the tax system will be simple, easy to administer, and every American will know exactly how much they are paying to the government.
I think knowing how much you're paying in taxes is a huge part of active citizenship and empowerment. The Fair Tax, while interesting, seems to me to be too much of a hidden tax. I live in Hawaii where we have a 4.5% VAT, plus a tax on our income, taxes on every hotel room, and so many more taxes it is ridiculous. We have a lot of hidden taxes built into everything we buy that other than our income tax, we don't know how much each of us is individually contributing in taxes.
Political participation in this state is limited to turning out to vote Democrat because that's what they've already done.
With the FairTax most Americans should have a very good idea of how much they've paid in tax otherwise they have only themselves to blame.
The tax amount will appear on each receipt in a specified form and things not taxed are pretty obvious. Actually, determining the taxes paid would be easier than at present as you hint at in your state.
In addition to the things you observe in HI that present obfuscation, in all states, the cascading, embedded tax costs that become part of the additional cost of everything we buy cannot be calculated with any degree of certainty - but they're certainly there and add unnecessarily to prices.
The same difficulty would be true under any income-based system such as a flat tax - which would also still present the taxpayer with payroll/withholding taxes just as at present (which many people do not presently realize are taxes. thinking they are just somehow due to the government for allowing them to exist). With the FairTax, each and every receipt clearly states the tax involved. If one does not know how much he has paid in tax it is only because he's not interested enough to find out.
The Fair Tax system relies on a certain high level of ideal citizenry, which does not exist.
The average person from middle to low income will not track their Fair Tax contributions. Many of these people do not even save their receipts. They should, but they don't, and nothing exists to tell me that a Fair Tax will change the basic patterns that people follow.
In an ideal world, the Fair Tax system would empower individuals and promote economic growth. In the real world it will likely achieve the latter while doing nothing for the former. In all likelihood, the Fair Tax system will actually give greater power and influence to the socialists/Democrats.
I'm a proponent of the Flat Tax system because of its simplicity. An average citizen would be able to take their W2 form, fill out the tax filing postcard, and mail it in. We could even go so far as to include on the post card a spot that looks like a simple check, in which the citizen will sign over the contents of their income tax withholdings to the government. A carbon copy tear off is saved for their personal records, and in less than 2 minutes, their taxes are done. But just as the act of voting is important to the maintenance of our democracy, the act of filling out a tax form and signing over our money to the government is important. It is the act that empowers us.
How would we feel if our vote were calculated based on our spending habits?
With the FairTax most Americans should have a very good idea of how much they've paid in tax otherwise they have only themselves to blame.How much did you pay in state sales taxes last year?
But with the flat tax "their taxes" aren't done in two minutes - or at all - by the idealized method you cite. As I said previously there are other taxes such as payroll and withholding taxes which many peoople aren't aware of as well as the taxes embedded in the cost of things we buy at retail.
The Flat Tax is no better at giving a taxpayer a complete picture of his tax burden. In fact if a taxpayer is truly interested in keeping track of it the FairTax offers the best and most complete picture of the true tax burden. If the person doesn't want to retain records (or enter the data into a spreadsheet each week or perhaps each month or so) the total tax burden is probably not of interest to him.
The fact remains that it cannot be obtained correctly with the flat tax.
That's none of your business, Nightie, just like it is none of the government's business as to how much I make in income.
More evidence that Bush wasn't really interested in tax reform only to use said issue as a springboard to win re-election.
I would love a strict flat income tax too of around 15% or so. Don't waste your time with the UnFair Tax proponents.
That's none of your business, Nightie, just like it is none of the government's business as to how much I make in income.Translation: you have no clue how much you paid in state sales tax - just like nobody would have a clue how much they paid in FairTax.
The Flat Tax is no better at giving a taxpayer a complete picture of his tax burden. In fact if a taxpayer is truly interested in keeping track of it the FairTax offers the best and most complete picture of the true tax burden.What about the federal taxes that would be embedded in their state and local taxes? How are they to keep track of that?
You're making an assumption - a VERY bad one. But that's OK since you've made many others just as bad in trying to attack the FairTax.
There are some people who are interested enough in the amount of taxes they pay to keep track. Obviously you're not one of those and you assume everyone else is equally inept. Bad assumption Nightie.
What about them, Nightie??? Are you trying to claim that some3how a flat tax somehow eliminates federal taxes embedded in state and local taxes??? Since these would not be separately identified how would that be so?
And even more to the point - what makes you think I said that since I said nothing of the sort. Your ignorance is overwhelming.
Why is it you happen to be so interested in my taxes, Nightie - can you find no other diversionary tatic to use on the thread.
I've already told you it's none of your business - and that's not going to change. You can assume whatever you wish and be as incorrect as you wish. I'll bet that really sticks in your craw, doesn't it?
When are you going to start harping on the Nightwmare Tax again so that you can change the subject of the thread? Your tactics are totally transparent.
Why is it you happen to be so interested in my taxes, Nightie - can you find no other diversionary tatic to use on the thread. I've already told you it's none of your business - and that's not going to change.You can't even tell us if you do know how much you paid in state sales taxes? Interesting.
"You can't even tell us if you do know how much you paid in state sales taxes? Interesting."
I didn't say "can't" Nightie (quite the opposite) ... I said "won't" since it's none of your affair and not pertinent to the thread IAE. You're getting as bad as Looey in intentionally warping things and trying to misstate what was said. Eat your heart out - I'll certainly not tell you. See if you can find something along the lines of the topic of the thread instead of trying the diversions ... for example tell us why you think the Tax Panel should NOT be dissolved (or do you think it's doing a great job?).
Unfortunately, the only way to correctly calculate the embedded costs in retail prices is if that cost is ZERO.
The only way to accomplish THAT is to give up the fiction that businesses can pay taxes without adding them into their prices.
The only way to accomplish THAT is to remove all taxes -- income, payroll, property, etc. -- from businesses. That would make it clear that all taxes were being paid for by individuals.
The only way to accomplish THAT is to eliminate all income and payroll taxes from individuals. Why ? Because otherwise individuals would soon shift all their income to where it was business income. Businesses would have no employees -- only sub-contractors.
So. To get prices to reflect the true, untaxed, cost of production and profit, we have to eliminate all income and payroll taxes from both business and individuals.
Can anyone say "FairTax" ?
True, but that doesn't go far enough. A change in the tax system will change EVERYTHING. Go see
Winners and Losers under the 'FairTax'
And you should also be aware that the points about "winners and losers" were wwell refuted by the 450 posts on that thread.
The poster is an anti-FairTax advocate.