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Hockey fighting flares emotions - on both sides
Lansing State Journal ^ | October 19, 2005 | John Schneider

Posted on 10/19/2005 10:17:59 PM PDT by RWR8189

DIMONDALE - Can we all agree that the coach-ordered fistfighting Bob McClean believes he witnessed at The Summit ice arena last week is a bad thing?

We cannot.

Gordon Allington has no objection to it. His 17-year-old son, Chase Allington, plays in the local Capital Centre Pride league. The kid says he fights when the coach says "fight."

The father accepts it as an occupational hazard. Calling Tuesday from Wasilla, Alaska, he said: "They must learn how to protect themselves. It's a way to get the kids to the next level."

Al Harris agrees. He lives in East Lansing and has two sons - 11 and 17 - who play hockey. In an e-mail responding to Tuesday's column, Harris wrote:

"In my opinion, the parents of these high-caliber players brought their kids to this coaching staff in order to prepare them for hockey at the next level."

He added: "Regardless of how it looks, these players were learning to protect themselves and their teammates in a sport that condones physical confrontation."

Fight night

As I wrote Tuesday, McClean, a retired cop who lives in Dimondale, was watching his grandson play at The Summit, in Dimondale, on Oct. 11, when he saw something that filled him with disgust.

He called it "orchestrated brutality."

As McClean described the scenario, a coach at a practice session of teenage hockey players ordered the kids to drop their gloves and helmets, and fight each other, one on one. He said he witnessed four or five fights, which left several kids bloodied.

Debi Haigh of Eagle, at The Summit with her 9-year-old daughter, said she saw the same thing McClean saw.

"I was stunned," Haigh said. "One boy took a heck of a beating. He skated to the side holding his nose and wiping tears."

Based on McClean's account and a preliminary review, Jim Cain, who runs both The Summit and the league, suspended an unnamed coach while he investigates.

"We have reason to believe fighting occurred," Cain said, adding that such conduct violates rules of both the league and USA Hockey, the governing body of amateur hockey in the United States.

Also, George Atkinson of the Michigan Amateur Hockey Association said Tuesday that his group will "get to the bottom" of the incident.

"We certainly do not condone the type of behavior described in your article," Atkinson said.

Speaking theoretically, Eaton County Prosecutor Jeffrey Sauter said a coach who encourages minors to engage in assault could face misdemeanor charges.

Parents feel stymied

Clearly, some parents of players who know about the fighting don't like it, but they feel paralyzed by their sons' hockey ambitions.

I heard from two women who identified themselves as mothers of two of the players on the team in question.

One of the mothers said her son suffered a concussion and three loose teeth in one of the "practice fights." The other mother said her son was forced to fight his best friend.

But neither had filed a complaint, and both were adamant about not being publicly identified.

Why? They offered identical motives: Their sons begged them not to do or say anything that would threaten their standing on the team and their future in hockey.

Their reasoning went like this: The boys struggled through the ranks to become part of an elite team in the Pride league. Being linked to an official complaint would subject a player to being shunned, at best, and possible retaliation.

Said one mother: "If it ever got out that he complained, his days of playing serious hockey would be over."


TOPICS: Extended News; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: goons; hockey; thugs
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Fighting has no place in amateur hockey.

Speaking as an amateur hockey referee, coach, and parent, the conduct of this coach is ridiculous and should not be tolerated.

This guy should not be in charge of any team. This is not what the game is about

1 posted on 10/19/2005 10:17:59 PM PDT by RWR8189
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To: Hat-Trick

ping


2 posted on 10/19/2005 10:20:06 PM PDT by RWR8189 (George Allen 2008)
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To: RWR8189
He called it "orchestrated brutality."

Um... this is hockey, not golf, we're talking about?

3 posted on 10/19/2005 10:27:31 PM PDT by thoughtomator ("Stare decisis" means every bad decision a court ever made is perpetually binding)
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To: RWR8189

Another article on the same story:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1505713/posts


4 posted on 10/19/2005 10:35:09 PM PDT by Dan Evans
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To: RWR8189

I agree wholeheartedly with your assessment of YOUTH hockey but the pros should be allowed to mix it up. Not allowing them to fight almost always leads to stickwork or other nasty behavior.


5 posted on 10/19/2005 10:37:17 PM PDT by Minus_The_Bear
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To: RWR8189
"They must learn how to protect themselves. It's a way to get the kids to the next level."

The "next level". The next circle of Hell?

How low are we going to go?

6 posted on 10/19/2005 10:37:49 PM PDT by Dan Evans
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To: RWR8189

The only time there should be fighting in hockey practice is if fighting is in the league rules - and then it should be practiced by the appropiate players. I don't think most coaches want the Yzermans on the team fighting and off the ice for five minutes. They send the McCartys out there to fight, to protect the Yzermans.

The question I have here is whether it is the Capital Center Pride LEAGUE or TEAM. The Capital Center Pride TEAM is in the NAHL, which is a junior hockey league(Junior A?). Eric Lindros used to play in it for Detroit Compuware before he went to the OHL, so this is a fairly bigtime league. There may be fighting allowed in it. It's considered amateur, but it's probably closer to semi-pro.

Now if it's a local league with "no fighting" rules, that's another story.


7 posted on 10/19/2005 10:40:38 PM PDT by Dan from Michigan ("My Gov'nor don't got the answer")
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To: Minus_The_Bear
The rationale that the coach gave for having kids fight was that they will have to do it in the pros. I think it's nuts for cities to sponsor these bare-knuckle competitions disguised as legitimate sport.
8 posted on 10/19/2005 10:41:13 PM PDT by Dan Evans
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To: Minus_The_Bear

You can't even compare youth hockey to the pros.

Pro-hockey is about entertainment, fights are a part of the show.

In the pros, you get in a fight you take your 5 minute penalty and get back on the ice.

In youth hockey you're looking at least 3 game suspension and you're headed to the review board.


9 posted on 10/19/2005 10:43:31 PM PDT by RWR8189 (George Allen 2008)
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To: RWR8189
I just read the other story on it. It doesn't sound like a junior league practice. I now agree with this comment.

"This guy should not be in charge of any team. This is not what the game is about"

10 posted on 10/19/2005 10:44:13 PM PDT by Dan from Michigan ("My Gov'nor don't got the answer")
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To: Minus_The_Bear

"I agree wholeheartedly with your assessment of YOUTH hockey but the pros should be allowed to mix it up. Not allowing them to fight almost always leads to stickwork or other nasty behavior."

I'll second this...nothing sticks out more in my head than going with my dad to the Flyers v. Rangers fights back in the late 70's early 80's @ the Spectrum. Good times. Come to think of it...there were almost as many fights in the stands as there were on the ice. Those were even more entertaining as they usually involved beer & girls.


11 posted on 10/19/2005 10:56:07 PM PDT by mancogasuki
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To: Dan from Michigan

http://www.capitalcentre.com/

Capital Center Pride is a youth hockey association (also).


12 posted on 10/19/2005 11:05:40 PM PDT by elli1
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To: RWR8189

How about the kids standby while the parents brutalize each other.


13 posted on 10/19/2005 11:27:28 PM PDT by taxesareforever (Government is running amuck)
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To: RWR8189
Give the coach the heave-ho. Why do hockey player drop their protective gear when they fight? Seems like it would make more sense to leave the padding on.
14 posted on 10/20/2005 12:36:31 AM PDT by carumba
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To: mancogasuki

The sissification of young men continues, as the Marching Mommies jump in front of their precious darlings to demand they be wrapped in bubble wrap and taught to injure other players with their sticks like the European players do ...

Personally I would run away from home if I were a young boy whose Mommy went shrieking to my coach because I came home with a boo boo. Not only would I never be able to play pro hockey, but I would never get a date with a person of the opposite sex as long as I might live.

Hockey in the 1970s was the greatest it's been in modern times -- we had the same kind of 'fun' at Ranger games and later when the Canucks visited LA, and we loved it.


15 posted on 10/20/2005 4:06:28 AM PDT by KateatRFM
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To: RWR8189

Went to a fight the other evening and a hockey game broke out.


16 posted on 10/20/2005 4:21:32 AM PDT by MeneMeneTekelUpharsin (Freedom is the freedom to discipline yourself so others don't have to do it for you.)
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To: KateatRFM

I don't see how you equate sportsmanship with sissification.

There's nothing wrong with a good clean check, but fighting isn't part of youth hockey and it never has been.

Fighting is entertainment to keep people watching pro games, not that there's anything wrong with that either.


17 posted on 10/20/2005 4:33:00 AM PDT by RWR8189 (George Allen 2008)
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To: RWR8189

Rome had it's gladiators, we have hockey. This kind of love for violence is the sign of a sick society in danger of collapse.


18 posted on 10/20/2005 5:36:41 AM PDT by Grig
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To: RWR8189

ITA, it makes me physically ill. My 14 year old son plays bantam travel hockey. he is team capt and has a couple of thugs on his team, that he is trying to rein in, as it hurts the entire team. The coach is benching the kids that get misconduct penalties. this past weekend, the worst offender was told by the coach not to show up for sunday's game. the refs in this league are adopting zero tolerance for it, and i am all for that.


19 posted on 10/20/2005 5:40:18 AM PDT by xsmommy
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To: taxesareforever

hey that is not so far off the mark. many of the hockey parents are every bit the thugs that their kids are!


20 posted on 10/20/2005 5:41:42 AM PDT by xsmommy
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To: KateatRFM

that is ridiculous, late hits, punches away from the puck constitute unsportsmanlike conduct and avoiding that doesn't promote sissification in the slightest. as my husband always tells my son, beat everyone to the puck and you won't have to be doing the hitting, let THEM get the penalty calls because you are there FIRST. excellent hockey doesn't require thuggish behavior in the slightest.


21 posted on 10/20/2005 5:44:06 AM PDT by xsmommy
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To: RWR8189

I don't want to get into the whole "fighting in hockey" debate, but I'll agree that a youth hockey coach who orchestrates fights in practice has no place behind the bench


22 posted on 10/20/2005 5:49:14 AM PDT by Skip Ripley
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To: RWR8189
As a former player myself and currently a youth hockey coach I agree with you. However, I do disagree on one point: not only should the guy not be in charge of a team, he should not even be allowed in the building.
23 posted on 10/20/2005 5:51:52 AM PDT by Uncle Vlad
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To: Hat-Trick; airborne; SZonian; retrokitten; hollywood; Alberta's Child; 6323cd; Betis70; ColoCdn; ...
Hockey Ping!

RWR...thanks for the ping on this one.

Freep mail/ping airborne or Hat-Trick if you want on or off the Hockey Ping List.

24 posted on 10/20/2005 7:14:39 AM PDT by Hat-Trick (Do you trust a government that cannot trust you with guns?)
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To: RWR8189

Ned Braden: What are you doing?
Jeff Hanson: Puttin' on the foil!
Steve Hanson: Every game!
Jack Hanson: Want some?


25 posted on 10/20/2005 7:21:09 AM PDT by angryirish
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To: xsmommy
beat everyone to the puck and you won't have to be doing the hitting

Exactly, and excellent advice. You can't hit what you can't catch.

26 posted on 10/20/2005 7:23:56 AM PDT by Hat-Trick (Do you trust a government that cannot trust you with guns?)
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To: RWR8189
This guy should not be in charge of any team.

Maybe Shanny or Chelios should dance with this jerk at center ice so he can show what a tough guy he really is.

I'm sure that more than a few hockey people would pay to see that.

27 posted on 10/20/2005 7:27:37 AM PDT by headsonpikes (The Liberal Party of Canada are not b*stards - b*stards have mothers!)
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To: Hat-Trick

if the thugs put half the effort into SKATING that they put into fighting, there wouldn't be fights. : ) the thugs are generally the ones with the least hockey ability, it seems to me.


28 posted on 10/20/2005 7:28:42 AM PDT by xsmommy
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To: RWR8189

Any coach who instructs a 17 year old to fight should not be a coach!


29 posted on 10/20/2005 7:39:46 AM PDT by airborne (Al-Queda can recruit on college campuses but the US military can't!)
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To: Skip Ripley

I am an accredited USA Hockey coach and referee and can state for a fact that the actions of this coach are not sanctioned.
There is absolutely no place for fighting in USA Hockey games or practices. It is absolutely banned. When seen, it is punished severely, usually with an immediate game misconduct and a subsequent game suspension, or more.


30 posted on 10/20/2005 7:40:25 AM PDT by jjmcgo
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To: Grig
Rome had it's gladiators, we have hockey.

Nonsense!

31 posted on 10/20/2005 7:42:10 AM PDT by airborne (Al-Queda can recruit on college campuses but the US military can't!)
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To: Hat-Trick

Thanks for the ping Hat-Trick,

I agree with most posters here, fighting has no place in a "YOUTH" league, semi-pros and up should be allowed to mix it up because if they don't learn how to "defend" themselves from cheap or dirty shots/hits, their career will be over in a short time.

Cheers!


GO Flyers!


32 posted on 10/20/2005 7:46:52 AM PDT by SZonian (Tagline???? I don't need no stinkin' tagline!)
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To: RWR8189

"Ordered the kids to drop their gloves and helmets."One player suffered a concussion?I hope this "coach" has lots of liability insurance.


33 posted on 10/20/2005 7:51:25 AM PDT by Thombo2
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To: xsmommy
many of the hockey parents are every bit the thugs that their kids are!

That is an urban myth. I have coached 16 youth teams including 1 this year. I have only had a problem once I would consider serious with a parent over that entire period.

USA Hockey and most rinks have a zero tolerance policy.

34 posted on 10/20/2005 7:52:01 AM PDT by JIM O
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To: JIM O

i beg to differ. my son has played travel ice hockey for the past 7 years. to date, i haven't seen any parents brawling, but there has been the potential more than once, depending on the teams. Some are worse than others.


35 posted on 10/20/2005 7:54:52 AM PDT by xsmommy
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To: RWR8189

I'm a big proponent of fighting in hockey, it's a natural outcome of the intensity of the game and the only way to truly get rid of it is to drop the intensity and make the sport itself less interesting. That being said it has no place in youth hockey, and seriously has no place in practice especially not ordered by the coach, part of the idea of practice is developing team unity and having the team fight each other isn't generally good for team unity.


36 posted on 10/20/2005 8:03:34 AM PDT by discostu (When someone tries to kill you, you try to kill them right back)
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To: xsmommy
. my son has played travel ice hockey for the past 7 years. to date, i haven't seen any parents brawling ...

In the bush leagues of rural northern Canada, the aftermath of a game often involves a major "Here comes the RCMP" brawl between fans from the visitor's town and the locals.

I almost typed 'usually' instead of 'often'.

37 posted on 10/20/2005 8:05:11 AM PDT by headsonpikes (The Liberal Party of Canada are not b*stards - b*stards have mothers!)
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To: carumba

They drop the gloves to do more damage, they actually try to keep the helmet on generally (while trying to take the other guy's helmet off) but if it gets dislodged they get rid of it because it becomes a hazard (can get in front of your eyes so you can't see, having it hanging around your neck isn't so nice in a fight either).


38 posted on 10/20/2005 8:07:43 AM PDT by discostu (When someone tries to kill you, you try to kill them right back)
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To: RWR8189
Fighting has no place in amateur hockey.

They'll be doing it as soon as they get to college (if they go), which last I checked is still amateur.

I have no problem with a coach teaching kids the do's and don'ts of hockey fighting, as long as it's done appropriately. Think boxing, wrestling, kung fu. I don't think "okay, you two pair up and wail on each other" is a good way to go about it.

39 posted on 10/20/2005 8:27:32 AM PDT by JohnnyZ ("She was appointed by a conservative. That ought to have been enough for us." -- NotBrilliant)
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To: xsmommy
the thugs are generally the ones with the least hockey ability, it seems to me.

Two words. Darren McCarty. Two more. Brendan Shanahan. They can put the puck in the net, and also put the opponents flat on their butts.

40 posted on 10/20/2005 8:44:10 AM PDT by Dan from Michigan ("My Gov'nor don't got the answer")
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To: All

Having played hockey from 5-18 yrs old, 76-89' I'd beg to differ with alot of the opinions here.

Fighting has a place, and is needed in hockey.

My bantam coach never took it as far as that nutjob mentioned in the article, but he had us drop gloves and helmets and just wrestle quite a bit to improve balance and overall familiarity with fighting on the ice.

Refs miss alot and sometimes, someone just needs thier butt kicked.

Two missing teeth or a couple of cuts is alot more incentive to not lay on wood, slewfoot, or dig on a goalie than two minutes in the box.
And if mommy and daddy, and the refs, or the league won't discourage the repeat offender, pain will.

Lastly, with helmets and masks mandatory throughout North America at all levels of amatuer hockey, a kid who lays on wood and recieves a punches through a mask from a kid with gloves on probably deserves it and will be wiser for it.

Juniors and the minors will always be the testing ground for the Pro's. And fighting will never be eliminated from it.

And to those who say only the unskilled resort to such tactics, you are ignorant. A Gordie Howe hat-trick was a goal, assist and a fight....


41 posted on 10/20/2005 8:44:30 AM PDT by Stopislamnow
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To: Dan from Michigan

i am talking about the bantam games i see. there are no shanahans, mccartys or lindros playing in the games i see!


42 posted on 10/20/2005 8:47:54 AM PDT by xsmommy
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To: mancogasuki

Ah yes.....those were the days!!

I got to see the action up close and personal from my season seats at The Spectrum, section N, row 9, seats 3 and 4.


Go Flyers!!


43 posted on 10/20/2005 8:51:45 AM PDT by GeorgeW23225 ("Grow your own dope. Plant a liberal")
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To: RWR8189

Why didn't one of the parents beat the crap out of this coach?


44 posted on 10/20/2005 8:55:36 AM PDT by Kokojmudd (Trade the US Senate for the Iraqi Parliament!)
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To: xsmommy
Hopefully the emphasis on enforcing the rules of obstruction that we're seeing at the higher levels (NHL/AHL) will continue, and ultimately work their way down to the other levels of the game, with the result being much less need for non-skating, clutch & grab droolers in the lineup or on the roster.

We are already seeing a huge emphasis on checking from behind in our NCAA D1 games - 5 minute major and game misconduct seems to be the standard penalty.

Maybe Bettman (with a lot of help) is going to get one right (one in a row) - and the game will evolve - in a positive direction.

45 posted on 10/20/2005 9:16:24 AM PDT by Hat-Trick (Do you trust a government that cannot trust you with guns?)
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To: RWR8189

Each and every one of these kids wants to have a career in hockey. The sooner they learn how not to get their ass kicked, the better. This isn't the seventh grade tennis team. This is high-level junior hockey.


46 posted on 10/20/2005 9:17:48 AM PDT by GallopingGhost
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To: GeorgeW23225

nice!


47 posted on 10/20/2005 9:38:40 AM PDT by mancogasuki
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To: Dan from Michigan

Darren McCarty was the man.

I miss him on the Wings....


48 posted on 10/20/2005 11:16:09 AM PDT by MikefromOhio (Pwner of Noobs)
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To: GallopingGhost

If this is a high level junior team it would be a different story.

The way the article is written made me think they were a midget team or something like that playing AAA.


49 posted on 10/20/2005 1:16:17 PM PDT by RWR8189 (George Allen 2008)
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To: discostu

And spin kicks with skates on are just beyond the pale.


50 posted on 10/20/2005 1:26:53 PM PDT by carumba
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