True then... True today...
Posted on 10/21/2005 5:49:49 AM PDT by BluH2o
Battle of Trafalgar, naval battle fought on October 21, 1805, by a British fleet and a combined French and Spanish fleet. It is one of the most celebrated naval engagements in European history. The battle took place off Cape Trafalgar on the southern coast of Spain, pitting a British fleet of 27 ships under the command of Admiral Horatio Nelson against a slightly larger combined fleet of France and Spain, commanded by Vice Admiral Pierre Charles de Villeneuve of France.
The French admiral was under orders from Napoleon I to slip out of Cádiz, Spain, which was under British blockade, to land troops in southern Italy, where the French were fighting. Leaving port on October 19 and 20, Villeneuve's fleet was intercepted by Nelson's fleet on the morning of October 21. Villeneuve formed his ships into a single battle line, south to north.
Nelson, however, surprised his adversary by ordering his ships into two groups, each of which assaulted and cut through the French fleet at right angles, demolishing the battle line; this bold strategy created confusion, giving the British fleet an advantage.
The battle began shortly before noon; when it ended, in the late afternoon, some 20 French and Spanish ships had been destroyed or captured, while not a single British vessel was lost. Villeneuve himself was taken prisoner, along with thousands of his sailors. The British suffered about 1500 casualties, among them Admiral Nelson, who was mortally wounded.
The overwhelming British victory destroyed Napoleon's plan to invade England and helped secure the supremacy of British naval forces for the rest of the 1800s.
If Nelson were fighting today, the press would question whether it was necessary to continue firing on a ship that was dis-masted but hadn't yet struck colors.
Cruel and in violation of the Geneva Convention to fire on a ship when its just floating there ...
Bad move Frenchy.......
Of course, this is not correct. Napoleon had already decided not to invade England and that is not where the combined Spanish and French fleet was headed.
But it makes for a better story.
Then explain Nelson's mortal wound. The Brit Navy suffered huge casualties during Trafalgar, and the French and Spanish fought back pretty hard.
Was Harry S. Flashman in that battle?
I seem to recall something about him fighting for the Spanish, but making it onto an English ship before his ship was sunk?
I'm not sure how that fits with Nelson dividing his fleet into two columns. Crossing the T pretty much requires that you have a single column.
WOO HOO! Victory over the FRENCH! A really great accomplishment!........Tell me, Who Hasn't had a victory over the French?.........(The Hundred Years War doesn't count)......
This was before Flashman's time, wasn't it?
At the time, many countries had been fighting for 20 years and hadn't had a victory over the French. Other than English naval victories, Napoleon had not been beaten when Trafalgar occurred. However, it was the beginning of the end. The Spanish changed sides, Wellington was able to take territory in Spain from Boney and pretty soon the whole French empire collapsed.
True then... True today...
A slashing rogue like Flashie will not be constrained by the limits of time and space...
Napoleon wasn't French.........
The "Nelson Touch" formation was two columns of ships breaking the enemy line at two points - roughly 1/3 and 2/3 along the line. Essentially the plan allowed the enemy ships to be crossing the British T at long range - a severe risk, especially in the low wind conditions of the early battle - in exchange for crossing the Spanish/French T at point blank range, with double-shotted cannon and raking fire. Nelson's plan explicitly allowed the French/Spanish to fire first for about 20 minutes - in exchange for devastating fire at close range.
The British sailors in Nelson's fleet were well trained ... to the extent individual gun crews were getting off three times the fire power of their adversaries in the same time frame.
No, but his army was (at least initially).
Nelson was hit by a sharpshooter in any enemy ship's rigging. A high percentage of English casualties were caused by the troops carried on the ships firing at anyone on the decks of the English ships.
Most of the other casualties were caused by cannon fire received while the Brits were approching at right angles to the French-Spanish fleet.
The battle lasted for about five or six hours. It is erroneous to suggest that there was virtually no return fire.
He was Corsican ... Corsica is to France as Sardinia is to Italy. Corsica has been part of France going back several hundred years. Corsicans are French subjects, speak French and identify closely with France.
Oddly enough the French made better ships than we British, and had the most formidable navy imaginable before Napoleon's time. The really big dent in their power came with the French revolution - the skilled French officer class were purged, guillotined or exiled. The revolution brought geniuses like Napoleon to the top of the army, but their Fleet rotted for ten years.
Of course I contend that we would have beaten the damn Frenchies anyway - if we'ld had to - but it goes to show that totalitarian states tend to shoot themselves in the foot. A more contemporary example would be Stalin and the Red Army purges.
Two hundred years ago, at this precise time, the Battle of Trafalgar had been under way nearly two hours.
The October 2005 edition of National Geographic has an excellent article titled 'Admiral Lord Nelson's Fatal Victory.' Very detailed account of the Battle of Trafalgar.
I can't imagine standing on the deck of a ship with cannon shot, grape shot, musket fire and splinters whizzing past me for hours.
The copper bottoms were already in use by this time, though, weren't they? It was my understanding that by mid-way through the Napoleonic War the English navy was already faster and could stay out longer because of the copper bottoms.
You are correct. Captain Lucas (if I remember correctly) had trained his entire crew in boarding actions and musketry - and his ship was one of the two that crashed into the Victory. They were throwing primitive handgrenades and sparying the Victory's decks with musketry - and it is absolutely true that Lucas's ship (at least) did not use cannon broadsides once close quarter combat ensued. They closed the cannon ports and brought all crew on deck. Given the abysmal state of French training (with broadsides) from having been cooped up in Cadiz all that time, Lucas was doing the best he could.
No-one - certainly not Villeneuve - seriously doubted that the British would win a fight with the combined fleet - what suprised everyone except Nelson was that it could be so decisive, with so many battleships sunk or taken.
The winner gets a Cuckoo Clock?(hint)
....yawn.
I don't know that I would consider it the beginning of the end of the First Empire, so much as the end of the beginning (though it was the beginning of the end of any French maritime aspirations). Napoleon had not yet been crowned as Emperor for a year at the time of Trafalgar, and would celebrate his one-year anniversary less than two months later the night before his greatest victory at Austerlitz. His empire was probably at its zenith in 1807 after the Treaty of Tilsit, and several brilliant campaigns.
I'd say the entry into Spain was the beginning of the end, as it gave Britain a toehold in Europe.
Nelson said to his troops "England expects every man to do his duty" To which some in the ranks were heard to say "Let us come along side."
"Thank God I have done my duty
and how do they connect to Hollywood?
Uh...... ?
I remember reading that Nelson's body was placed in a barrel of "malmsy" to preserve it until it could be returned to England. Also, that our US Navy wears black neck ties to this day as a holdover from the English naval uniform item adopted at the death of Nelson.
Sans-Culotte, mon ami?.......
I thought the entry into Spain happened not long after Trafalgar, but clearly I'm mistaken. I know that Trafalgar, in the grand scheme of things, had little impact on the final outcome, but I was mistaken that the one happened soon after the other.
It seems to me that the Flashman Papers started when he was in India, the 1840's or so.
Nelson did his duty. Hollywood does its doody.
Yeah, Napoleon was at the top of his game until Spain, which was only a few years later, but a few years is a long time during the First Empire, which only lasted 10-ish years. However, you're essentially correct in that Trafalgar (and Nelson's earlier victory at The Nile) pretty much made Napoleon a man without a fleet.
Trafalgar battle must not 'bash' French: Not an opportunity for "French-bashing", says Royal Navy.
Instead of the British taking on a French/Spanish fleet at next month's event to mark the battle's bicentenary a "red" force will take on a "blue".
Navy organisers fear visiting officials may be embarrassed at seeing their side beaten, The Sunday Times reported.
As for the French ships being better - let me amend what I said. British captains greatly preferred being given command of (repaired/reconditioned) French prizes, as there was a strong prejudice against English-built ships. I quote Sir Percy Watts (The Ships of the Royal Navy as they existed at the time of Trafalgar. Read to the Institution of Naval Architects, July 19th 1905)
In the old days, as now, there was sometimes a strong disposition to discover defects in British ships. Our vessels, it was said, sailed slower, carried smaller and poorer guns at a less height, and were of inferior form to those of the enemy ; they were designed with finer ends, so that they pitched more heavily, and even endangered their masts ; they were more foul than those of the enemy, for they were at sea more; they were older than those of the enemy, for we had not to build so many new ships to replace captured ones.
But Percy goes on to say
Yet, in spite of it all, they generally brought the enemy to action, and they generally beat him.
So: there WAS a prejudice against English ships - I just indulged in it myself, 200 years later :0( - but it seems likely to have been a case of the grass being greener etc
I'm almost at the end of Patrick O'Brians' Master and Commander series. After you assimilate the language, you can imagine the shot and splinters whizzing across the deck. Along with boarding parties, handspikes, axes, swords and all that.
I could be wrong, but I thought the Flashman Papers began in England when he joined the 11th Light Dragoons. He went first to Scotland to put down workers riots (and marry Elspeth) and then to Afghanistan where he achieved his first brush with fame by attempting to strike the colors at the fort but passing out (no doubt from fear) first.
Yep, Flashman was a Victorian-era soldier. The first novel was set during the First Afghan War in the 1840's, shortly after Flashie's expulsion from school.
Very cool.
"A willing foe, and sea room!"
LOL! I can't imagine sailors complaining ...
/sarc
I think the reason Nelson's gamble in letter his T get crossed worked is that the two columns essentially meant that the French split their fire. It's a weird way of effectively doubling your speed of advance.
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