Posted on 10/21/2005 11:28:26 PM PDT by jmc1969
With the most powerful storm in recorded history weakening but every bit as devastating as its predecessors, saint, sinner and blogger alike are again wondering if God really does use nature in retribution for sin.
Bill Moyers, late of PBS and CBS television and the day's keynote speaker, cited the incredible devastation caused by Hurricane Katrina and linked it with the Genesis flood. He noted that millions of conservatives believe the biblical teaching that God brought the deluge to punish human sin and also accept "God-ordered genocide" elsewhere in the Old Testament.
Others also used the Katrina moment to level religious criticism of President Bush's administration, among them the leader of America's National Council of Churches, a bishop in Bush's own United Methodist Church, and a taped statement attributed to al-Qaida leader Abu Musab al-Zarqawi.
"The country is not yet a theocracy but the Republican Party is," Moyers charged. "Democracy is in peril." He compared conservative Christian activists with Muslim
(Excerpt) Read more at deseretnews.com ...
And such a comparison shows just how stupid Moyers is. Jesus teaches us to love our neighbor, Islam teaches us to blow our neighbor up if he isn't a muslim of the same sect. Or as it has been said, in Christianity God sent His son to die for us, in Islam we are to send our sons to kill for Allah.
Now how does he know righteous people didn't perish in the great flood? If it's what you believe then there will be an ultimate judgment for everyone, just not perhaps all at once. To say that only unrighteous people were affected by the wrath of the Katrina God is as asinine as his assumption God gives a warning and opportunity before calamity comes. He gave us one warning, The end will come! Your life here is your opportunity for repentance and calamity will come throughout it.
Change "Allah" to "Satan."
What Moyers doesn't realize is that the Final Crusade will actually be against his ilk - the moral relativists.
Theodicy is the fancy theological/philosophical term for the attempt to justify the ways, acts, justice and goodness of God in the face of suffering, death and evil to an incredulous jury of humans. We Christians have floated some doozies.
Christian and Hebrew theologians, philosophers and kibitzers for thousands of years have struggled to come up with a plausible defense of God's goodness and power, given the daily reality of evil, because, well, God hasn't really produced an alibi for himself.
Once, at the end of the Old Testament wisdom book of Job, God could have explained it all, but He didn't. God makes a personal appearance out of the whirlwind just as the argument between Job and his so-called friends gets really interesting, meaning the finger finally gets pointed directly at God. God appears dramatically and essentially tells Job that it's none of Job's business why he's suffering and that Job wouldn't understand anyway.
The writer's elaborate, but single, point of the story of Job is that human speculation on such matters is folly at best, and idolatry and heretical at worse. But Job's message and warning don't seem to give us pause.
We Christians today, however well-intentioned, often fall off the horse on one side or the other by speculating with pious platitudes about why some terrible event has occurred. And indeed, all theodicies are pure speculation unless God has directly and specifically revealed His will and purpose to a credible prophet who comes to us with "Thus saith the Lord."
Once the speculation has begun, there's no way to judge it, evaluate it, or refute it because speculation by definition is completely subjective and unverifiable. Unchecked, the likelihood of theological mischief and stupidity is great amongst theodicy speculators.
We can even find versions of McVeigh's collateral damage attitude espoused by Christians: 1) God may allow people to be killed in order to teach spiritual lessons like the time God allowed Satan to kill Job's ten children; 2) God may kill innocent people to punish guilty people like the time God killed the illegitimate first child of David and Bathsheba to punish them for their adultery and David's successful murder plot; or 3) God may permit the deaths of as many people as necessary to accomplish His will in human history like when the angel appeared and told Joseph and Mary to flee from Bethlehem into Egypt because Herod's soldiers were coming, but the angel didn't tell the other parents in Bethlehem, and their baby boys under the age of two were slaughtered by Herod's troops. And what of the deaths of all first born males in Pharaohs ancient Egypt? Let my people go?
The first problem is that all of these collateral damage justifications sound callous and depraved unless one already trusts God and His purpose and plan. As we saw in the Hiroshima and Nagasaki decisions, and the McVeigh case, unless the public embraces the underlying objective as sound and just, they're not going to accept any collateral damage defenses. If a person has true faith in God, a theodicy isn't necessary, and if one has no, weak or little faith, a theodicy will only inflame disgust with God because the justifications will sound so cold and cruel.
Theodicies are theological and philosophical La Brea Tar Pits. Once we take the plunge, we're stuck forever, and all of our struggling only sinks us deeper and deeper into the pit. First, we're hit with the question: How can we offer a defense of God that's considered depraved when invoked by humans? Second, once we engage in the parlor game of second guessing God, anything goes.
One of my favorite examples of such speculation is provocative, subversive and highly effective at taming our wandering ways. It comes in the form of a poem by highly-acclaimed poet and Vanderbilt Professor of English Mark Jarman.
Jarman playfully pens a poem entitled "Unholy Sonnet 12:"
There was a pious man upright as Job,
In fact, more pious, more upright, who prayed
The way most people thoughtlessly enjoy
Their stream of consciousness. He concentrated
On glorifying God, as some men let
Their minds create and fondle curving shadows.
And as he gained in bumper crops and cattle,
He greeted each success with grave amens.
So he was shocked, returning from the bank,
To see a flood bearing his farm away--
His cows, his kids, his wife, and all his stuff.
Swept off his feet, he cried out, "Why?" and sank.
And God grumped from his rain cloud, "I can't say.
Just something about you pisses me off."
Nothing in the punchline of the poem is any more impious than the silly things people say to the grieving in a funeral parlor, that evangelical preachers say from their pulpits, or writers spout in evangelical publishing house best-sellers.
So what's the answer? Allow me to quote from a song, "When The Morning Comes," page 522 in my church's Baptist Hymnal: "Trials dark on every hand, and we cannot understand/All the ways that God would lead us to that blessed promised land/But He'll guide us with His eye, and we'll follow till we die/We will understand it better by and by." Rev. W.B. Stevens and J.R. Baxter, Jr. make the same point in their 1937 classic, "Farther Along." The chorus goes, "Farther along we'll know all about it/Farther along we'll understand why/Cheer up my brother live in the sunshine/We'll understand it better by and by."
Even contemporary Christian music pop diva Amy Grant gets the point as she and co-writer Wayne Kirkpatrick recycle "When the Morning Comes" and "Farther Along" in their 1997 tune off Grant's Behind the Eyes album.
On "Somewhere Down The Road" they slightly rephrase those old classics with contemporary lingo like this :"So much pain and no good reason why/You've cried until the tears run dry/And nothing here can make you understand...And you say/Why, why, why/Does it go this way/Why, why, why/And all I can say is/(chorus)/Somewhere down the road/There'll be answers to the questions/Somewhere down the road/Though we cannot see it now/Somewhere down the road/You will find mighty arms reaching for you/And they will hold the answers at the end of the road."
So, if Job tells us to harness our wild speculations, and even pop theologians like Amy Grant get the point, why can't we?
The next time you hear or read such tripe as pompous pronouncements as to how and why God caused or allowed the latest tragedy and for what purpose think about Timothy McVeigh and his collateral damage mentality.
http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3b2e4a4a127b.htm
A little dated.
God punishes stupidity. Build a city at below sea level in a hurricane area and sooner or later, it'll be under water.
I don't think any of the recent disasters are punishment, and I'm not saying that they necessarily mean anything, but read the thirteenth book of Mark in the New Testament and decide for yourselves. Once again, I'm not trying to infer anything, just suggesting some reading material.
The AP, being a vast collective, might actually stumble upon something resembling facts and balance in its reporting. Sometimes.
Moyers is an extremist ideologue wrapped up in faux "credibility."
Wouldn't matter if they had, would it? These righteous people would get to leave this wicked world, full of suffering and be with God for all eternity. It would've been "their time."
I would be hard pressed to believe Katrina, Wilma or any of these quakes and storms are God's interventing in the natural processes of this Earth. "Allows it to happen" might be more on point.
He attacked the claim that Katrina was God's judgment upon New Orleans for its "debauchery and ribald behavior."
and a taped statement attributed to al-Qaida leader Abu Musab al-Zarqawi.
Okay! So Katrina is God's punishment for what now? Supporting Israel, not supporting Israel, Mardi Gras? What terrible sin can we lay at the feet of poor Marco Island when Wilma hits it Monday night? Here is the problem when we begin to believe natural disasters are macro scale punishments: The concept of crime and punishment are human concepts. God is not human. Isaiah 55:8 states For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. . As was posted further up, the lesson of Job is that God is not for the likes of us to understand but I doubt, seriously doubt, these disasters could ever be construed as punishment. Somtimes, a thing just is what it is. A hurricane is just a hurricane. A natural effect of warm water, unstable air, and the rotation of the earth.
I wish it had started.
Yea. But it was amazing what krept out from under the woodwork once that hurricane hit.
It's a tie. :-)
Disasters will occur, lif'es mortality rate is 100%.
If our Master died such a cruel death, who are we to reason what manner of expiration is just for us? We are commanded to be ready.
Job was also told, "Know therefore, God exacts less from you than your iniquities deserve."
Regardless of what we encounter, God is merciful.
Moyers is much worse. He was raised in an Evangelical church, went to Baptist schools, and was ordained as a So. Baptist minister. I believe that Bill Moyers will be held more accountable since he has turned his back on God
Britt Hume chimed in on this when talking to some state senator from Alabama. He had made similar claims that Katrina was a divine judgment and Hume pounced on him. His belief was that he recognized the existence of God, but didn't envision him being active in human affairs. His view was that God created a self-sustaining, self-renewing system, and that he was "hands-off" when it came to such things. Judgment, in his opinion was reserved for the end of life, not while we're alive.
I find that opinion absolutely non-scriptural.
Moyers is ignorant of Chrisitan beliefs. When Jesus was sent to walk among men, a new covenant was made.
The stereotypical "angry God" of the Old Testament is not in the New Testament. I am not up on the prophecy of Revalations.
Of course when the Second Coming comes, there could always be a "new" book and again there could be a different tone.
"I find that opinion absolutely non-scriptural>"
It is the pride of intellect.
"The stereotypical "angry God" of the Old Testament is not in the New Testament. I am not up on the prophecy of Revalations."
Be careful what you say here, though there is a new covenant Jesus did say I did not come to destroy the law of the prophets but to fulfill it. The whole old testament is not null and void only the things that Christ said were.
"Speaking of the wages of sin, the H5N1 virus is getting around pretty fair in south China. Suggest all keep an eye on the situation. Probability is pretty low, but could require pulling the kids out of school and not going to work for some weeks. Could kill 90% of infected people over forty five if it goes person to person and once the hospitals are overloaded. Maybe a third to a half of the younger ones. Maybe way less, way less. Bears watching."
And in other news, the same virus has reached Croatia. Surprise surprise, we (Europeans) came up with a cure. As the results show atm... it's 100% effective (of course there might be a couple deaths if it reached pandemic levels, but the chance of that happening is very low).
The percentages you were stating... are idiotic; no virus with 90% mortality rate could have any possibility of actually killing large amounts of people because it would self-contain itself. Plus... in addition to Tamiflu other EU countries are hastening the research of similar "cures". And yes, I know... cure is the wrong word for it :) Antiviral drug is more like it.
I presume that you found these percentages on some crazy christian/islamic/jewish page, and he probably called it divine retribution or some similar religious BS.
Becasue its easy to dismiss what you do not believe exists, and easy to embrace what you made up to fill that void!
What does the phrase "Jesus died for our sins" mean to you?
We are to "go forth and sin no more" (we are not absolved of following the laws laid down) but the debt has been paid.
There ARE those who celebrate their sins and even those within the "church" who attempt to deny that some activities (homosexual relations and abortion among them) are even sins at all.
God purposes ALL events for His divine will. We can either perceive those events as good or bad, but ultimately He has in His heart the best interests of those whom He has called.
Romans 8:28 - "And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose."
He uses all events to either chastise us, or draw us closer to Him.
Moyers is Divine Retribution against the members of "New York's Union Theological Seminary" for inviting him as their keynote speaker and giving him some d@mn award.
There is no one on this planet that can claim that hurricane Kat happened without a warning. That should be the lesson of the whole event. A warning to escape was given and not everyone took heed to the warning.
Hard for me to say which did the most damage the flood waters that overflowed inadequate levies or the flood of lies spewed by humans about what happened during and after the fact.
After the great flood didn't God decide that he wasn't going to be in the punishment business anymore? In the New Testament, doesn't God offer hope even to sinners?
One more thing, Moyers once again sets up a false premise to argue against. He is very tiresome.
But we do know exactly why Job suffered. The beginning of the book tells us. God, Satan and any being present in those councils in heaven heard the exchanges between God and Satan. It was a test of Job's love. Job suffers and loves God and passes the test and never even knows there was one. Test, that is. That God would countenance Satan's tests and games and attempts to "prove" God wrong about Job's love is way more fascinating than the meaning of suffering in general. God cares whether Job loves Him, or not.
As for theodicy, how's about this one...what if God chooses to play in time, just like us? What if the future is partially, at least, open. For the sake of free will and love, which is what free will is all about, God chooses not to "know" all of the future. Stuff happens, He reacts, we react, we love each other. Or not.
Almost perfect, but not quite. How about simply:
"God uses all events to draw us closer to Him." That, my friend, is our life in a nutshell.
You're pretty close. There are definitely consequences to stupid behavior (I've suffered many such consequences). Whether they are God's punishment or not or whether God intervenes sometimes to alleviate the severity of the consequences (there have also been times I have been spared what was coming to me), who knows.
God is outside of time. There could not be prophecy without this simple fact. He knew you while you were still in the womb (Jeremiah).
"God is outside of time. There could not be prophecy without this simple fact. He knew you while you were still in the womb (Jeremiah)."
When were the souls created? Genesis does not tell us, yet it was that breath of life = soul that was placed in the newly created flesh man that made the flesh man alive.
Telling Jeremiah that he was known before he was born of flesh seems more like being told there is a history of the soul before the flesh body is conceived.
Seems more appropriate to say that God is TIME.
"What does the phrase "Jesus died for our sins" mean to you?"
He died as the passover lamb (without blemish) to absolve me of my sins once and for all and I am saved by His grace (a gift ny God,unmerited favor)but that grace is also not cheap and not to be taken lightly. We are justified by faith in Christ and then certified by our works because faith without works is dead.
Those who celebrate their sins are in darkness as Romans 1 says:
20 Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse; 21 for although they knew God they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking and their senseless minds were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man or birds or animals or reptiles. 24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever! Amen. 26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. Their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural, 27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in their own persons the due penalty for their error. 28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a base mind and to improper conduct. 29 They were filled with all manner of wickedness, evil, covetousness, malice. Full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malignity, they are gossips, 30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32 Though they know God's decree that those who do such things deserve to die, they not only do them but approve those who practice them.
And those practices bring about God's old testament type fury because it cheapens Christ's suffering and death on the cross. I believe it is highly insulting to God evident this by Paul's letter to the Romans. There are numerous examples of this in the new testament. The attitudes that God has towards sin is the same throughout the entire Bible and is consistent.
No, it's dangerous to claim that the original meaning applies directly to every situation that arises today and all should resist those holding that belief.
I read the following (dated 10-3-05 from a blog at STR.org) by Melinda Penner and thought it was excellent:
Presumption & Hubris
Since Hurrican Katrina, some Christians have speculated about whether it was God's judgment on New Orleans. Some have declared God's intent in the natural events. This goes beyond our authority to speak on God's behalf and declare His Word - because God hasn't declared His will in this event.
New Orelans and the Gulf Coast is full of sinners - so is the rest of the country and world. For goodness' sake, the French Quarter, arguably the locus of celebrating evil behavior, was spared the worst of the hurricane and flooding. If God wanted to use a hurricane to judge sinners, which He is capable of and has the moral authority to do, there are sure a lot of other places full of sinners worthy of judgment. Simply pointing out that sinners lived in the area isn't enough to conclude God's judgment.
Frankly, we're all worthy of judgment absent Jesus' forgiveness. God has commissioned us to speak for Him but only in what He has revealed. He's told us that humans are all sinners and in need of His grace to be reconciled to Him and be part of His Kingdom. That's true for every human being. However, imputing God's intentions to natural events is not part of that message because God has not revealed His will about that event. It's possible it was God's judgment, but we can never know without His specifically revealing His intentions.
A good ambassador accurately and boldly represents the views of the one who has sent him; but the ambassador also dare not go beyond the authority granted him.
It's simply presumptuous and hubris to speak for God when He hasn't spoken Himself. We're His messengers and must speak for Him only as we have been commissioned. To do otherwise, since we are His messengers, is to risk bringing dishonor to God. There are lots of ordinary ways and then spectacular ways that Christians impute God's will when He hasn't revealed it. We'd all do well to be cautious when representing God's will.
About the only case in recent times in which I wondered if God may have intervened was the Jonestown suicides. That was a strange event among people following a truly Satanic character.
I have read that he used to stomp on a Bible during his sermons and other desecrations which I don't even want to describe.
Rosalyn carter attended his church and praised him btw.
" Do you mean a cure or do you mean you have this one surviving case in Croatia?"
Tamiflu is an antiviral drug, its purpose is to slow down the virus and give the body time to develop its own antibodies (which is the only way to fight this).
There have been no infected people in europe so far, but the drug has been proven usefull in other countries (now that we actually started producing it).
There are also 3-4 other research labs creating new drugs, in case the virus adapts to tamiflu (low possibility).
God's hand? Your call, but He does work in mysterious ways.
I thought that God was out of the flood-as-chastisement business after Noah. Sorry Chastisement crowd. Read the Bible you self-righteous reres
I thought that God was out of the flood-as-chastisement business after Noah. Sorry Chastisement crowd. Read the Bible you self-righteous reres
Does Moyers exude love and tolerance and belief in multi-culturalism? /sarcasm
Moyers is the bigoted deceitful intolerant bully who is consumed with the quest for state power and financed by wealthy unions and people like George Soros.
Bill Moyers, more and more, reminds me of Jimmy Carter, a person who tries to portray himself as a loving southern Christian, but who is a arrogant,petty, bitter, raving liberal who despises conservative Christians.
AP was kind of funny how they put Zarqawi's and Moyer's religious based attacks together.
To totally dismiss God's chastisement(tough love)upon individuals,communities and nations is unscriptural and self-righteous in itself. If He is really displeased with someone, a country or the world He can react sometimes quite forcefully to get His point across and get men to repent and seek Him. The very Bible you admonish others to read says in many places (here is a few examples) and this is all New Testament:
Romans 1:18 - For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and wickedness of men who by their wickedness suppress the truth.
Romans 2:9 - There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek.
Hebrews 12:1-20
1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us, 2 looking to Jesus the pioneer and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God. 3 Consider him who endured from sinners such hostility against himself, so that you may not grow weary or fainthearted. 4 In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. 5 And have you forgotten the exhortation which addresses you as sons? --"My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, nor lose courage when you are punished by him. 6 For the Lord disciplines him whom he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives." 7 It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline? 8 If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. 9 Besides this, we have had earthly fathers to discipline us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live? 10 For they disciplined us for a short time at their pleasure, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. 11 For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant; later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it. 12 Therefore lift your drooping hands and strengthen your weak knees, 13 and make straight paths for your feet, so that what is lame may not be put out of joint but rather be healed. 14 Strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord. 15 See to it that no one fail to obtain the grace of God; that no "root of bitterness" spring up and cause trouble, and by it the many become defiled; 16 that no one be immoral or irreligious like Esau, who sold his birthright for a single meal. 17 For you know that afterward, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no chance to repent, though he sought it with tears. 18 For you have not come to what may be touched, a blazing fire, and darkness, and gloom, and a tempest, 19 and the sound of a trumpet, and a voice whose words made the hearers entreat that no further messages be spoken to them. 20 For they could not endure the order that was given, "If even a beast touches the mountain, it shall be stoned."
this is for you dear friends thank you all
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“Dear ones eto fore if child goes a straight and Father says”You surely be in pain” infore child goes and is hurt; eto whom is at fault? Then child will say “Now I understand Father” and if child in humble way returns to Father vine ino etitum child will be safe. People talk gloom fore doom --- no dear ones---- have faith--- love--- hope ---of everything will be well trust me.
Look upon life in grace infore goodness eto in eto don’t make mistake one Cherubim did of surely incontinum pain and sorrow will be forever. Dwell on saint Isaiah fore saint Ezekiel eno Saint Daniel continuum Saint John Saint Job Proverbs Saint Paul ineto everything is in front of you; read it dear ones and pray pray pray. Wisdom comes from His Majesty of Majesty Majesty of Israel. Be humble and you will be happy and know. Pray, pray, pray, pray, pray, have faith love hope; fore His Majesty of Majesty Majesty of Israel knows everything, eto fore fiat I say thy His Majesty be will. Don’t be gloom don’t be in doom infore is not what it is; hope, love, faith –eto ---- “Be not afraid”!!!!
People call this punishments eto fore is correction and warning for you to stand up and eto wakeup from lethargy of soul of your life and infore have hope everything will be well. Battle rages on of seen and unseen; eto choose wisely of which road you take. Your house is of His Majesty of Majesty house not below eto above. Happiness waits for you ore ino ore; you have to carry cross. First is Golgotha secundo is happiness.
Always no matter what happens be humble have faith love and hope eto ino eto Love is His Majesty there you will fine peace incontinum wisdom and Love; fore Love is everything Love is His Majesty of Majesty. Don’t dwell on dates, eto numbers, fore years, ore ino ore His Majesty of Majesty knows them well; in of fore dwell on love and silence and humility fore help one another and pray trust me everything will be well.”
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