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Rebellion Creeping Through Caucasus
LA Times via Yahoo News ^ | 10/23/05 | Kim Murphy

Posted on 10/23/2005 1:38:57 PM PDT by baseball_fan

GHIMRI, Russia — A dripping and cavernous tunnel, three miles through the belly of the mountain and lighted only by a spindly strand of dim bulbs, marks the entrance to the land of deep gorges and outlaw villages of the Caucasus range.

Emerging in the bright daylight on the other side is like entering another world, a Russia that is not Russia. Road signs every few feet are bright green with Arabic script: "There is no god but God, and Muhammad is his prophet." Several dozen signs bear the words of a legendary Caucasian warrior: "He who thinks about consequences is not a hero."

Since the 19th century, Russia has tried to tame the 650 miles of snowy peaks and fertile lowland slopes between the Caspian and Black seas. Today, the Caucasus wars seeping out of Chechnya through the surrounding, predominantly Muslim republics are increasingly being waged under a banner of militant Islam.

This creeping Islamic revolution, analysts suggest, is the latest outcome of the Kremlin's failure to adopt a coherent policy for combating religious extremism in a nation with 23 million Muslims.

Moscow's disorganized and violent attempts to suppress Caucasian Muslim insurgents have swept up thousands of innocent believers in the process. The brutal arrests, police raids and mosque closures appear to be alienating a population that until now had largely sympathized with Russia's attempts to quash terrorist attacks and bring peace to the region.

In areas like this mountainous region of Russia's Dagestan republic, the battle for hearts and minds may be lost...

...snip

(Excerpt) Read more at news.yahoo.com ...


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events; Russia; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: alqaedarussia; chechnya; cucasus; globaljihad; radicalislam
"People here in Ghimri insist that they are looking not for the establishment of an independent Islamic state, but for the election of honest government officials, jobs, an end to brutal police operations and gardens big enough to grow vegetables."
1 posted on 10/23/2005 1:38:58 PM PDT by baseball_fan
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To: baseball_fan

I used to have sympathy for them, and especially for the Chechens, since they have all suffered a lot over the centuries from the Russians.

Beslan changed all that.


2 posted on 10/23/2005 1:41:16 PM PDT by CondorFlight
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To: CondorFlight

Beslan was not the act of an nation, but of a group of individuals. The entire Caucasus deserves freedom and self determination.


3 posted on 10/23/2005 1:45:00 PM PDT by Tax Government (Tax "democrats". Contribute to FR.)
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To: baseball_fan

I read Caucasian the first time:')


4 posted on 10/23/2005 1:47:49 PM PDT by CindyDawg
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To: Tax Government
Beslan was not the act of an nation, but of a group of individuals. The entire Caucasus deserves freedom and self determination.

Exactly right.

5 posted on 10/23/2005 1:48:08 PM PDT by FreeReign
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To: CondorFlight

"I used to have sympathy for them, and especially for the Chechens, since they have all suffered a lot over the centuries from the Russians.

Beslan changed all that."


How to avoid the creation of more Afghanistans under the Taliban?


6 posted on 10/23/2005 1:48:14 PM PDT by baseball_fan (Thank you Vets)
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To: baseball_fan
"There is no god but God, and Muhammad is his prophet."

Wrongo!! This is not the correct translation of this phrase. The correct translation is "There is no god but ALLAH, and Muhammed..."

There's a big difference when it is worded/translated correctly. "Allah" is the name of the Islamic god. "allah" does not mean "god"., "illah" does.

7 posted on 10/23/2005 1:53:11 PM PDT by blinachka (Vechnaya Pamyat Daddy... xoxo)
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To: CondorFlight

I wonder how these people who support an islamic state in the region will feel when they decide they want one here.


8 posted on 10/23/2005 2:00:46 PM PDT by cripplecreek (Never a minigun handy when you need one.)
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To: baseball_fan

I have a Caucasion Ovcharka, but I've made sure that he's been raised as a good Jewish boy! or maybe I should say as a good Jewish GOY!


9 posted on 10/23/2005 2:04:50 PM PDT by BruceysMom ("Scott Peterson is such an amature!"-Michael Shiavo)
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To: cripplecreek

Read what you can about the Caucausus and its people. They have been living in that location, with their own languages, culture and traditions, for thousands of years. Islam is a recent addition, something that was adopted to give them strategic allies in their fight against Russian incursion.

Among the many sites you could visit to learn more about Chechnya in particular, its history and people, is this one run by the Russian government: www.chechnyafree.ru. There are plenty of others with strong points of view on the human rights and political situation. Google is very helpful.

If you'd like a link to some recent pop music, Chechen and Russian, with no hint of political content, here it is: http://www.chechnyafree.ru/index.php?section=Vidrus&lng=eng
There is plenty more interesting music and video on this site.


10 posted on 10/23/2005 2:11:59 PM PDT by Tax Government (Tax "democrats". Contribute to FR.)
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To: Tax Government
"Beslam was not the act of an nation, but of a group of individuals."
Have you concidered the fact that the nation of Islam is not a nation at all, but a movement that is not satisfied short of world domination, and likely will not stop short.
I guess it would not mather what the Russian do, or anyone els either, The Muslims are on the move, and only a war like the crusades will stop them, if we win, and then only temporary, just look at what's happening, they are moving into every western country and setting up shop[mosque] and as soon as they can, they demand that the laws be changed to sharia law, little by little, starting with family law
11 posted on 10/23/2005 2:12:09 PM PDT by munin
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To: Tax Government

Islam = Animals all I need to know.


12 posted on 10/23/2005 2:13:54 PM PDT by cripplecreek (Never a minigun handy when you need one.)
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To: cripplecreek

Not even conservatism can save you from that particular bad idea, that Islam = Animals.


13 posted on 10/23/2005 2:15:07 PM PDT by Tax Government (Tax "democrats". Contribute to FR.)
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To: munin

Chechnya and the Caucasus do not deserve to be the pawns of an international game, in which America "gives" them to Russia in return for Russian "support" against militant Islam.

Chechnya and the rest of that area deserves to be free (from Russia). We push it into the hands of Islamicism by treating it the same way Eastern Europe was treated after World War II -- as a political bargaining chip.


14 posted on 10/23/2005 2:18:02 PM PDT by Tax Government (Tax "democrats". Contribute to FR.)
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To: munin
Let's not forget that those animals also claim to be fighting for our "freedom" the same way they want to "free" India, Thailand, the Philippines etc etc etc.
15 posted on 10/23/2005 2:40:14 PM PDT by cripplecreek (Never a minigun handy when you need one.)
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To: cripplecreek

Russia is a nation with 23 million Muslims and better get busy or the games over. They can't afford any PC BS.


16 posted on 10/23/2005 2:44:49 PM PDT by ncountylee (Dead terrorists smell like victory)
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To: Tax Government
You and I are in total agreement, now all you [we] have to do is to convince all the libbs and Dims of this world.
Some task
17 posted on 10/23/2005 2:52:43 PM PDT by munin
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To: Tax Government
It would be just fine with me if every muslim died tonight. islam is soul cancer and mohammed is the child-raping monster that started it all apparently so that the people in hell would have something to laugh at.

And I'm a moderate.

18 posted on 10/23/2005 3:00:40 PM PDT by muir_redwoods (Free Sirhan Sirhan, after all, the bastard who killed Mary Jo Kopechne is walking around free)
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To: ncountylee

My wife and I have a Russian woman living with us. She is telling us about a Russian Orthodox priest who was "freed" a couple of years ago in Astrakhan.

His head was left on the altar and his body was hung feet up from the cross. They hung him that way to bleed him so they would have "paint" for writing islamic graffiti on the walls.


19 posted on 10/23/2005 3:02:59 PM PDT by cripplecreek (Never a minigun handy when you need one.)
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To: cripplecreek

All the vermin should be exterminated.


20 posted on 10/23/2005 3:05:40 PM PDT by ncountylee (Dead terrorists smell like victory)
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To: Tax Government

Don't think America is "giving" anything to the Russians. The Russians will do whatever they want in the Caucasus, regardless of our position on the conflict.

Amazing to watch the Russians commit national suicide. Iran's behind the growing Muslim revolt in the Caucasus, and yet Russia kisses up to Tehran while at the same time commiting the most horrible atrocities in Chechnya (although, to be fair, Beslan was at least as bad or maybe worse than anything Ivan's done). They don't understand the idiocy, the contradiction, the complete short-sightedness of their policy.

I wouldn't dirty my hands by backing or even sympathizing with either side. I think America needs to focus on building up democracies in Georgia and Armenia, as after the Russians are kicked out of the mountains, the Muslims will turn on those two Christian nations.


21 posted on 10/23/2005 3:06:36 PM PDT by happyathome
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To: FreeReign
Better think this one through.

I submit that this hotbed of insurrection is but one more manifestation of the "Clash" that Huntington, Lewis, Pipes and other scholars --without reservation -- consider to be underway: Islamist Fundamentalism vs. Western Democracy.

Putin stands not a chance against this cauldron of religious/cultural insurgency over the long term.

Europe is lost. Demographic imbalances has assured its demise vis-a-vis the Islamic threat.

And, the Far-left and Globalist hand-wringers will do all in their power to constrain our responses to the threat, right here in our Republic.

What is your rebuttal to this argument?

Anyway, have a good week.
22 posted on 10/23/2005 3:37:05 PM PDT by dk/coro
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To: dk/coro

All I know is that we can't allow Europe and Asia to fall to islam unless we're willing to sit back and watch a slaughter that will make the nazi death camps and Stalinist purges look like they were just kidding.

America cannot survive an islamic world.


23 posted on 10/23/2005 3:56:49 PM PDT by cripplecreek (Never a minigun handy when you need one.)
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To: dk/coro
What is your rebuttal to this argument?

There are only two choices.

I believe we should continue the type of battle we are fighting now. Remove terroists, remove terrorist supporting governments and defang(reform) Islam.

What do you think choice B is?

24 posted on 10/23/2005 7:24:22 PM PDT by FreeReign
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To: jb6; GarySpFc

"This creeping Islamic revolution, analysts suggest, is the latest outcome of the Kremlin's failure to adopt a coherent policy for combating religious extremism in a nation with 23 million Muslims. "

====

You might want to ping your ping list.
What coherent policy can there be against these terrorists, except defeating them?

Russia has a serious problem.


25 posted on 10/23/2005 9:39:56 PM PDT by FairOpinion (CA Props: Vote for Reform: YES on 73-78, NO on 79 & 80, NO on Y)
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To: Tax Government
Chechnya and the Caucasus do not deserve to be the pawns of an international game, in which America "gives" them to Russia in return for Russian "support" against militant Islam.

Chechnya and the rest of that area deserves to be free (from Russia). We push it into the hands of Islamicism by treating it the same way Eastern Europe was treated after World War II -- as a political bargaining chip.


The remarks above are simply insane. Firstly, Chechnya is a part of Russia. Secondly, we did not push them into the hands of Islamicism, the thugs ran the rest of the people out of the region in a takeover. Thirdly, the Chechen terrorists are controlled by al-Qaeda, and you will find them on every battlefield in the world where you find dead al-Qaeda. Yep, let's set up the Republic of al-Qaeda on Russia's border. sarcasm/off
26 posted on 10/24/2005 5:22:49 AM PDT by GarySpFc (Sneakypete, De Oppresso Liber)
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To: baseball_fan
.....How to avoid the creation of more Afghanistans under the Taliban?.....

The war in Iraq is being fought to achieve this purpose. A free Iraq and prosperous industrial base in the Gulf will enable the Islamic leaders to dampen and separate the violent fundamentalists from those wanting political freedom.

The war in Iraq has always been about a new start rather than tinkering with the status quo. W knew what was possible and is now making it come to fruition.
27 posted on 10/24/2005 5:29:05 AM PDT by bert (K.E. ; N.P . Chicken spit causes flu....... Fox News)
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To: GarySpFc

Number 1. Russia has been trying to conquer Chechnya for three or four centuries at least. That does not make Chechnya Russian.

Number 2. We are ignoring Chechnya and its population's right to exist as a distinct entity. Instead of asking the international community (or the U.N.) to take an interest, we are ignoring it-- giving Russia a free hand to do its worst. It IS doing its worst.

Number 3. The Chechens will look for support where they can find it. The surrounding countries have used Islam as a point of unity to resist Russian incursion. That is happening now.

Nothing I said need to be amended. Your statement that the remarks are "insane" is just uncivil.


28 posted on 10/24/2005 6:38:29 PM PDT by Tax Government (Tax "democrats". Contribute to FR.)
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