Posted on 10/23/2005 2:07:36 PM PDT by churchillbuff
Agreed. Completely agreed.
However, since she's a human making claims as to salvation, it seems reasonable to allow her to be so and to evaluate the reality of that salvation afterward.
If everyone who accepts Christ as Savior was so immediately disbelieved, there'd be few making their belief public, nor little fellowship about that or otherwise.
Her conversion could very well be genuine, could be false. We'll know soon enough is my point but to immediately disrespect the commitment seems...lacking in fatih, in all due respect.
And, yes, some Catholics denigrate the use of the term "salvation" in the sense of the conversional experience, "to be saved" and similar. I don't, although there is a lot written by the Catholic Church about the finer aspects to the terms involved (which I also respect, just saying).
Thanks for all that.
The image I shared earlier is from a site that provides prayers to and honor of Saint Joseph, in his role as figurehead, representative of vocations, of human work. Since Saint Joseph worked to protect his family, his "child," Jesus, and instructed Christ in His human vocation of carpentry...Saint Joseph is honored as representative of vocations.
He's depicted instructing Child Jesus in the "work" of making sparrows...or, perhaps, could also indicate an artist's rendering of the Holy Spirit in the work of Christ with Saint Joseph guiding Christ on as a man/child.
Sorry, image is from a Catholic site, one that is encyclopeadic in nature, but from the portion of prayerful, inspiring images of Saint Joseph.
Thank you for your link. If anyone has any references from Catholic references, I'd appreciate reading them.
self ping to investigate later
per request
Quid est veritas?
That ain't Pilate, it's Longinus.
Well .. I'd be startled if a 12 yr old got up in my church and started preaching .. but I have every confidence there are a few who could do it very well.
Mark 13:6; 21-22
Many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am he,' and will deceive many. At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'Look, there he is!' do not believe it.
For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and miracles to deceive the elect--if that were possible. So be on your guard; I have told you everything ahead of time.
Well .. I've never seen ANY child who could read and understand on an adult level. If you think that applied to Jesus - I don't agree.
Yes, Jesus was GOD! - IN THE FLESH!! - and in the flesh, Jesus had humbled himself and become as a little child. If he became as a little child - then he would have to be taught what the scriptures said - because otherwise how could he find himself in the scriptures.
And .. you're correct .. you don't know anything about Jewish law. It was the father's responsibility to teach his boy children the scriptures. Joseph would have been no different. In fact, the Bible says that God considered Joseph a righteous and faithful man. I hardly think God would have had a problem with Joseph teaching Jesus the scriptures .. in fact I believe Joseph was specifically chosen because of his knowledge of the scriptures.
And .. nix the name calling - saying someone is a heretic is just ignorance.
You have said what I have been thinking but could not express. She lost her husband recently and has turned to Christ in her desperation. The Occult has no answers to sorrows of life. She doesn't fully realize what a marvelous thing she has become a part of. Give her time.
I have not engaged in any "name calling" but pointed out the irreverancy of your suggestions.
Christ as child and as adult man was and is Divine. Either you accept that Jesus Christ was the Divine son of God, God incarnate, or you don't, but to allege He was God only after a certain age and mere human being up until that point is to defame his Divinity.
You alleged that Saint Joseph "taught Jesus the Scripture" and I again write here that that is a profane allegation.
I have not engaged in any "name calling" but pointed out the irreverancy of your suggestions.
Christ as child and as adult man was and is Divine. Either you accept that Jesus Christ was the Divine son of God, God incarnate, or you don't, but to allege He was God only after a certain age and mere human being up until that point is to defame his Divinity.
You alleged that Saint Joseph "taught Jesus the Scripture" and I again write here that that is a profane allegation.
Well .. I'm not going to argue with you about something I don't believe.
Jesus was always from the beginning of his birth to his death - A HUMAN BEING - and diety. He was both.
But .. being a HUMAN BEING .. He was not born speaking and reading. He had to be taught by someone. If Jesus was not taught, then you're saying He somehow magically just already knew everything. Is that what you believe. He just grew up and without any instruction He just knew EVERYTHING. And what scripture do you have to support that belief ..??
I've also never alleged to have any knowledge of "Jewish law." I assume that's your point of irate emotion here, assuming that you do, others do not.
Let's see...reading the thread here, yours are the only emotionally negating statements as to the Divinity of Christ and I am getting from your comments that you don't accept that Jesus Christ is the Lord, was born man as God, the son of God.
That means that "Jewish law" is irrelevant as to Christ's knowledge, ability and capability at whatever age. That he was twelve or fifteen or even two minutes "old" in human life is irrelevant to the existence of Jesus.
And, the Gospels about Christ teaching in the temple is just that message: that He arrived to prepare and present instruction to those who were otherwise concerned with "Jewish law" in the temple and thus, through that human interpretation, defining Christ as mere person of whatever age...acceptable at 12, not acceptable at 11, no presence of the Holy Spirit to enlighten them, mere "laws" and such...these are the very Pharisees Christ scolded, and for these very reasons.
If your concerns are with "Jewish law" and not with the message of Christ, you're going to be further irritated with what's just been written here.
I have no argument with you and find it disappointing that one mere comment about something you've written (which is profane to who Christ is, if you'll think about it) would upset you so.
Something I have little control over, by the way.
Joseph was a human being. Jesus Christ is Divine, is God. At any age, fully knowledgeable just as He was. The issue of His chronological human age in this regard (that Joseph would have been the human being who taught God the Scriptures) as you allege reduces Christ to mere human being of vulnerable human development, depending upon a human father (which Christ does not have) to teach Him what He has Himself created and is in full knowledge of.
I've also never alleged to have any knowledge of "Jewish law." I assume that's your point of irate emotion here, assuming that you do, others do not.
Let's see...reading the thread here, yours are the only emotionally negating statements as to the Divinity of Christ and I am getting from your comments that you don't accept that Jesus Christ is the Lord, was born man as God, the son of God.
That means that "Jewish law" is irrelevant as to Christ's knowledge, ability and capability at whatever age. That he was twelve or fifteen or even two minutes "old" in human life is irrelevant to the existence of Jesus.
And, the Gospels about Christ teaching in the temple is just that message: that He arrived to prepare and present instruction to those who were otherwise concerned with "Jewish law" in the temple and thus, through that human interpretation, defining Christ as mere person of whatever age...acceptable at 12, not acceptable at 11, no presence of the Holy Spirit to enlighten them, mere "laws" and such...these are the very Pharisees Christ scolded, and for these very reasons.
If your concerns are with "Jewish law" and not with the message of Christ, you're going to be further irritated with what's just been written here.
I have no argument with you and find it disappointing that one mere comment about something you've written (which is profane to who Christ is, if you'll think about it) would upset you so.
Something I have little control over, by the way.
Joseph was a human being. Jesus Christ is Divine, is God. At any age, fully knowledgeable just as He was. The issue of His chronological human age in this regard (that Joseph would have been the human being who taught God the Scriptures) as you allege reduces Christ to mere human being of vulnerable human development, depending upon a human father (which Christ does not have) to teach Him what He has Himself created and is in full knowledge of.
You do not comprehend Jesus Christ as the Son of God.
Well .. I can see you will not discuss the issue because i will not bow to your superior intellect.
But .. tell me this .. if Jesus was ONLY DIETY - then how do you account for his blood being spilled for all humans - didn't Jesus have to be HUMAN in order to pay that penalty ..?? If Jesus was not human - then he didn't pay the price for your sins.
Yes, I'm passionate!! I know the Lord and I've known him for 20 years, and I tell you he was a human baby who only got to coo and gurgle and poop his pants. He LOWERED HIMSELF to become human so he could pay the price for our sins. He was just enough human to make it legal, and just enough God to make it possible.
I don't care if you agree with me or now .. I know what I believe. And .. quite frankly .. by your attitude - I don't care what you believe.
Insulting me is not going to help you learn what you're seeking.
I've also never indicated I was resistant to any discussion, given that I've already responded to several of your ongoing allegations.
I've made my points clearly by this stage and repeating them won't be any more effectively written than already.
I don't share your humanistic description of the Child Jesus, nor of Jesus Christ as adult man.
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