Posted on 10/27/2005 10:12:51 AM PDT by calcowgirl
It seems like there is an endless supply of teflon, huh?
Well unless you have stock in "most" companies that's a deceptive line of reasoning -- yes, tech companies are liberal.
Let's face it, the state itself is very liberal.
NO. It's not. I live and work here and I totally disagree. Some very liberal people are in charge in Sacramento, but that doesn't translate to the state being liberal.
Most Californians are in fact very disconnected and not very political at all. The liberals who hold elective office don't run on issues like their support for gay marriage or acceptance of illegal aliens. In fact they do a good job of HIDING it.
One out of every six Americans lives in California, and the average Californian is rather average in their ideology. I live among them and work among them. I've walked hundreds precincts and knocked on thousands of doors for the past 17 years. It's an easy generalization, but its just not true.
But I did listen to Tom Sullivan yesterday, and yes, the unions are serious about "payback". They're white-hot, hopping mad. Let's see what develops.
Just reported on SFO Channel 4 and by Mark Williams on KFBK in Sacramento, 3 of Arnold's 4 ballot measures going down in flames and Prop 75 neck and neck with equal amounts for and against. This is a poll by the Public Policy Institute, for what it's worth... Yes, let's see what develops, especially if one is one of Arnold's developers!!!
I have to go on the basis of the result of elections. If you elect liberal politicians, then in my book, your state is liberal.
So that superficial conclusion extrapolates to the heads of most businesses as you originally suggested? What about most pastors? or cops? or gun owners?
It's easy and fun to make broad generalizations about other states, but in a state as large and politically diverse as California, the state that gave us Free Republic, Janice Rogers Brown and Ronald Reagan, and launched Rush Limbaugh, you risk looking ignorant when you try that.
If you have to cite Ronald Reagan as your counter-example, then you're proving my point. Reagan left CA office when I was a teenager, and I'm middle aged now. And judicial elections are really a different class.
If you don't go on the basis of the results of elections, then what do you judge it on? Your own generalizations? Unfortunately for CA, there are very few conservatives in public office. Even the GOP is very liberal, in addition to being a minority for years.
Of course, it's not your fault, but that is just the way it is, and it's not going to help to delude yourself.
I do sympathize with your predicament, though. I'm in Florida, and we've got to deal with the nutcases here as well, and it's growing more and more like CA in that respect, mainly because of the Northeast retirees and refugees.
The voters of California are mostly disconnected. They have busy lives and mostly don't pay attention unless things reach a crisis level. Under those circumstances it is difficult to change the status quo. The Democrats took control of the state in 1998 (with help form some national trends and a lousy GOP nominee). Since then it has been difficult to break that lock, lacking orgainzationand funding.
And where the hell do you get the notion that the GOP here is "very liberal"? Would you please list the state legislators and point out which ones are liberal?
The State Senate Caucus is 100% conservative -- not a single pro-abort among them. Of the 32 Republican members of the Assembly, about 4 moderates. The membership of the state GOP is solidly conservative. Any candidate for state chairman MUST be prolife or he/she doesn't stand a chance of winning.
Again, you don't know squat about California politics other than what you hear and read on the news. Your broad generalizations demonstrate that. Why don't you come out here and sit in front of a Walmart with petitions sometime, you pick the city and county, and talk to voters as they walk by? If you do that for just one day then your opinions will have some relevance.
As far as the CA GOP being liberal, you seem to be forgeting about Schwarzenegger and Wilson. The problem with citing state legislators as examples of GOP conservatives is that they are not the leaders. They are not in control. It's easy to elect a handful of conservatives from select conservative districts, but that does not speak generally of the electorate's politics.
The electorate did finally vote Davis out, after electing him repeatedly, but look who won. Schwarzenegger is no conservative, and yet it's beginning to look like he is far too conservative for the average Californian.
I am not sure why you are so defensive about this. Why do you take it personally that your state is liberal? Having lived in the North myself, I can tell you that one of the big stumbling blocks is that people who live in liberal states don't realize how out of touch they are with reality. Liberalism is very deceptive, and appealing. It's a herd mentality.
Unfortunately, it doesn't work.
You say that people don't act until there is a crisis. If you start with that attitude, then you are assuring yourself that there will be a crisis at some point.
More ignorance on your part of both California's and National politics. Prop 22 was placed on the ballot in 2000 by CONSERVATIVES to ban gay marriage. It was done in response to the DOMA act passed by Congress in 1996. Far from your assertion that gay marriage wasn't an issue then, DOMA came about because of efforts to legalize gay marriage in Hawaii that year.
In fact the need to place it on the ballot demonstrates my point perfectly how out of touch the legislature in this state is with the voters. The gay marriage ban was tried legislatively twice, in 1996 and 1998 by Senator Pete Knight and was killed in the legislature, yet after it was placed on the ballot it passed by an overwhelming majority.
As far as the CA GOP being liberal, you seem to be forgetting about Schwarzenegger and Wilson.
Schwarzenegger was never nominated in any Republican primary. He won as an enigma in a very unusual election such as this country has never seen before. In many respects it resembled a European parliamentary election where there were hundreds of candidates and in the end voters cast their ballots strategically voting for the least worst, rather than their favorite. Wilson was roundly despised by the CAGOP and in fact could never appear before a general assembly of a CRP convention. When his lapdog John Seymour once tried to address a convention half the crowd turn their chairs to face the back of the room, then stood up and walked out on him. As a result Wilson only spoke before the convention dinners where his staff snapped up all the tickets and then gave them to the blue-haired old ladies.
However since it's OK to cite the Wilson years to highlight California's political trends and makeup, I must point out that when Wilson was elected to his second term in 1994, Republicans captured control of the Assembly 41-39 and every statewide office but one. Why would a very liberal state do that?
Schwarzenegger is no conservative, and yet it's beginning to look like he is far too conservative for the average Californian
Where the hell are you getting that? Did you read something in the Associated Press?
The problem with citing state legislators as examples of GOP conservatives is that they are not the leaders.
On the contrary they are the leaders at the county and local level all over the state. They reflect the makeup of the party far better than the flash in the pan circumstances that tip a statewide election one way.
I am not sure why you are so defensive about this. Why do you take it personally that your state is liberal?
The assertion is factually incorrect. It is a huge myth. I live, here, work here and love it here. It is all based on superficial simplistic conclusions not based on hard facts. That the liberals are in control of the legislature does not mean that the average Californian is liberal, nor does it mean as you originally suggested that "most Californian businesses are run by liberals".
I've listened to all your arguments. I'm not persuaded. Frankly, any state that voted for Kerry over Bush is liberal in my book. Any state that voted for Gore over Bush is liberal in my opinion.
I judge whether the state is liberal or conservative by who they vote for. I don't see why that is misleading. You can always use some other measure, but you're only fooling yourself.
And that's the part that confuses me. Why would you want to fool yourself?
There are 35 million Californians. 28 million of them (80%)did NOT vote for Kerry. There were about 33 million Californians in 2000. 27 million of them (81%) did NOT vote for Gore. That leaves a whole lot of room for a whole lot of business owners who are NOT liberal.
You can always use some other measure, but you're only fooling yourself. And that's the part that confuses me. Why would you want to fool yourself?
I believe I have made a very good case supported by facts. and you have tossed out several serious factual errors to make yours. It sounds at this point that you have just run out of arguments and refuse to admit that I what I say is true.
Well, by your definition, NONE of the 50 states are liberal. How'd we get all these liberal politicians, then?
Why do liberals vote in your state, but not conservatives?
There are states that have a history of being rock-solid liberal for 50 years. Those are liberal states. California isn't one of them.
How'd we get all these liberal politicians, then?
Conservative leaning, profamily types who think politics is an ugly messy business who don't vote are a big part of the problem.
Why do liberals vote in your state, but not conservatives?
Die hard liberals vote everywhere in great numbers because they have a vested interest in big government. We have a whole lot of them here in California.
Conservatives aren't a block group in the same sense that liberals are. Conservatives are regular folks who have been motivated to vote. They showed up in large numbers for Proposition 22. They showed up in large numbers for the recall. Way back in 1978 when liberals had an even firmer grip on California they showed up in HUGE numbers for Proposition 13.
I'm going to get flamed by folks in other states, but if you've lived in California you will know what I'm talking about. Life is just busier in California.
Even heavy traffic can make a difference. In 1996 Republicans lost control of the Assembly by a mere 5000 votes in three seats statewide (87, votes, 198 votes, and 4500 votes). It happened when the Dole people inadvertently released his concession statement too early. 2 of the 3 critical Assembly seats were in commuter districts in Los Angeles. It didn't take very many voters sitting in their cars who decided to skip voting to make the difference. Reports from poll watchers across the state showed a HUGE drop off at 6:00 pm compared to normal years.
Ultimately, Californians are wealthier, busier and there is simply a whole lot more to do here. People get busy with their own lives and decide that politics will work itself out most of the time. Unfortunately, a large chunk of those busy moms and dads are our voters.
Hey waspman, I hope that you're not suggesting that we just give up? The fight for prop 75 is worth the effort. Money in union hands is money in socialist hands, and socialism inexorably destroys freedom.
Brilliant you're not! Where do you get that nonsense?
You're going to have to leave Sonora and Jamestown out though; they're loaded with welfare eaters. Could we make Twain Harte the capitol?
Brilliant is from Florida and has not shown a good understanding of Calironia's business or political environment.
Just be glad they aren't voting.
They're beating Prop 75 like they did Prop 226 as I warned all of FReeperdom that they would. They draw energy from ballot measures like these.
They drew so much political energy and momentum from Prop 226 that they swept Davis into office and bought him out-right as their puppet with the massive fundraising that Prop 226 inspired for them.
Now it's even worse because they've made Arnold "THE ISSUE!" They're going to crucify him and what's left of the lame moderates that control the Repellican Party!!!
This doesn't take a crystal ball or a clairvoiant political genius to see coming into focus!!!
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