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Clovis Speakers Discuss Man's Origins In The United States
The State/AP ^ | 10-27-2005 | Meg Kinnard

Posted on 10/28/2005 11:53:56 AM PDT by blam

Posted on Thu, Oct. 27, 2005

Clovis speakers discuss man's origins in the United States

MEG KINNARD

Associated Press

COLUMBIA, S.C. - A University of Texas archaeologist opened the highly anticipated "Clovis in the Southeast" conference at the Columbia Metropolitan Convention Center Thursday by rejecting the premise on which many experts once based their theories on man's North American origins.

At the meeting, sponsored in part by the University of South Carolina, Michael Collins called the idea that the first inhabitants traveled by way of a land bridge from Asia "primal racism." Instead, Collins said, they arrived by water, because "the rich marine environments" along the northern Atlantic and Pacific coasts are "very attractive regions for human exploitation."

Conference staffer Thomas McDonald said that roughly 400 people had pre-registered for the four-day conference on Clovis - the culture traditionally thought to have been the first in North America.
In recent years, many experts have begun to consider other explanations, such as migration from Europe, and not Asia. That idea was advanced by Dennis Stanford, head of the archaeology division of the department of anthropology at the Smithsonian Institute's National Museum of Natural History.

Other speakers talked about the wide array of paleo-Indian artifacts throughout the southeastern region. University of South Carolina archaeologist Al Goodyear discussed his research at the Topper site in Allendale County, calling the spot "the Goldilocks location to be doing archaeology." In 1998, Goodyear announced that he had discovered artifacts thousands of years older than Clovis materials at Topper.

University of Tennessee professor David Anderson also encouraged private collectors to consider sharing their artifacts with the public. Be "thinking about where you're going to be 100 years from now," he said. "We're all part of the archaeological record."

Afternoon speakers discussed the discoveries of Clovis tools from sites throughout the Tennessee River Valley. Showing slides of the dozens of samples recovered from a Tennessee location, John Broster of the Tennessee Department of Conservation said, "It sorta gets boring in a way, after a while, I guess, but it's still really exciting."

On Friday, Jim Welch will moderate a discussion that Goodyear said "might get a little hot and heavy." Goodyear said he hoped artifact collectors would attend and help to heal some of the "antipathy" between professionals and collectors in the field.

Scheduled events culminate in a Saturday visit to the Topper site.


TOPICS: News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: clovis; discuss; godsgravesglyphs; goodyear; mans; maritimearchaic; origins; preclovis; redpaintpeople; speakers; states; topper; united
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1 posted on 10/28/2005 11:53:58 AM PDT by blam
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To: blam
called the idea that the first inhabitants traveled by way of a land bridge from Asia "primal racism."

Too bad that archaeology is another science infected by the PC bacillius.

2 posted on 10/28/2005 11:56:34 AM PDT by Semper Paratus
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To: SunkenCiv
GGG Ping.

Topper Site: New Evidence Puts Man In North America 50,000 Years Ago

3 posted on 10/28/2005 11:57:00 AM PDT by blam
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To: blam
So, I guess the whole 'starship lifeboat crashes on virgin planet' theory gets little support in this meeting, eh?
4 posted on 10/28/2005 11:57:54 AM PDT by ASOC (The result of choosing between the lesser of two evils still leaves you with - evil.)
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To: blam

How do they know we just did not evolve here from moonbats?


5 posted on 10/28/2005 11:58:10 AM PDT by Brilliant
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To: Brilliant
Professor Stephen Oppenheimer's DNA studies place humans at Meadowcroft 25,000 years ago and they became isolated there until the later Mongoloid entrances: Journey Of Mankind

BTW, the oldest (undisputed) Mongoloid skeleton ever found is only 10,000 years old. Re: Oppenheimer.

6 posted on 10/28/2005 12:02:36 PM PDT by blam
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To: Semper Paratus
To arrive by water one would need a serious craft - either large rafts ("Kon-Tiki" type) or primitive ships. Such craft being sizable, the remnants of at least a few would be likely to survive either physically [like viking longboats], or at least in the lore. What is the age of the oldest boat/raft remnant ever found around the Americas?
7 posted on 10/28/2005 12:03:01 PM PDT by GSlob
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To: blam
Clovis speakers discuss man's origins in the United States

Didn't know there was anyone left alive that spoke Clovis.

8 posted on 10/28/2005 12:04:33 PM PDT by Mike Darancette (Mesocons for Rice '08)
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To: GSlob

Of the most feared warship in history, the Athenian trireme, not one survives.


9 posted on 10/28/2005 12:05:41 PM PDT by RightWhale (Repeal the law of the excluded middle)
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To: Brilliant
How do they know we just did not evolve here from moonbats?

*************

It's generally accepted within the scientific community that this is the origin of Homo Democratis.

10 posted on 10/28/2005 12:07:18 PM PDT by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: blam
At the meeting, sponsored in part by the University of South Carolina, Michael Collins called the idea that the first inhabitants traveled by way of a land bridge from Asia "primal racism."

WTF does that mean? Sounds like a typical lefty. If you can't logically debunk your opponent's argument, call him a racist. Works every time.

11 posted on 10/28/2005 12:08:00 PM PDT by L98Fiero
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To: Semper Paratus

What exactly is "primal racism"? LOL Has a nice ring to it, though.


12 posted on 10/28/2005 12:09:27 PM PDT by mlc9852
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To: blam

I want reparations against "American Indians" who stole this land from my ancestors!


13 posted on 10/28/2005 12:11:16 PM PDT by pabianice
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To: blam

Thanks for the post. I enjoy pre-Columbian history.


14 posted on 10/28/2005 12:12:07 PM PDT by wizr (Mentally lame duck.)
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To: RightWhale

And they weren't much more than 2000 years ago.

BTW, these speakers are probably correct about the North Pacific, but they are wildly incorrect about the North Atlantic.

North Atlantic shores are not at all hospitable for human life.


15 posted on 10/28/2005 12:13:11 PM PDT by Restorer (Illegitimati non carborundum)
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To: blam
Good article. Keep 'em coming!

Some good discoveries in the last few years. Things are getting exciting again.

16 posted on 10/28/2005 12:14:12 PM PDT by Coyoteman (I love the sound of beta decay in the morning!)
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To: RightWhale

Xenu is my homeboy.


17 posted on 10/28/2005 12:14:56 PM PDT by job ("God is not dead nor doth He sleep")
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To: Restorer
North Atlantic shores are not at all hospitable for human life.

No kidding. That's why the Original Thirteen Colonies died out.

18 posted on 10/28/2005 12:16:40 PM PDT by RightWhale (Repeal the law of the excluded middle)
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To: blam
Thor Heyerdahl is probably the best-known proponant of the idea of human travel and cultural exchange across the oceans in ancient times. Read more at the Link below.

Today the Reed boats that ply the Andean Lake Titicaca in Bolivia, Ancient Egypt can current day Chad proclaim that ancient man was an adventurous traveler!

Thor's Heyerdahl's Explorations

I visited the Museum in Sweden where his boats are now displayed. In the next room are Viking long boats which did discover Greenland when the last global warming took place and greenLand was named for its Greeness, (an there was no Kermit!). As near as I could tell the Viking Long boats did not add CO2 to the atmosphere!!!!

19 posted on 10/28/2005 12:16:56 PM PDT by Young Werther
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To: GSlob
Land/water travel does not have to be either/or.   Pop-science news blurbs fly all over the place but the consensus stays pretty constant.  Land routes are shown on simple maps because it's well, simpler.  Even population shift maps don't leave much room for differentiation between travel modes.  My favorite rendering of the consensus (CLICK! IT'S A MUST SEE) gets into more detail of the interplay between different routes.  It's supplementary info, not a contradiction.

The controversy is over dates.  Then it becomes a fuss between adults who do this for a living and a bunch of 'me first' clowns and their press agents.

20 posted on 10/28/2005 12:23:10 PM PDT by expat_panama
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To: GSlob

Back then, the continents were connected and sea travel may have been along the coast by water rather than hiking across land. Inuit traveled between the Aleutian islands and the mainland by kayak.


21 posted on 10/28/2005 12:27:42 PM PDT by doc30 (Democrats are to morals what and Etch-A-Sketch is to Art.)
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To: RightWhale

They migrated to Kobol.


22 posted on 10/28/2005 12:31:13 PM PDT by orionblamblam ("You're the poster boy for what ID would turn out if it were taught in our schools." VadeRetro)
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To: GSlob
I disagree, it depends upon where your starting point is compared to your destination, most (probably all) of the water hazards on the coastal route from the Yellow Sea could be easily traversed in a day in a curragh (hide boat). Any large canoes or curraghs that sank are now under ~150ft or more of water and sediment.
23 posted on 10/28/2005 12:36:55 PM PDT by Fraxinus
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To: blam

Maybe they caught the redeye flight from somewhere?
Check this link out, http://www.philipcoppens.com/bbl_plane.html


24 posted on 10/28/2005 12:39:56 PM PDT by Camel Joe (Proud Uncle of a Fine Young Marine)
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To: mlc9852
What exactly is "primal racism"? LOL Has a nice ring to it, though.

I think that is when racist thoughts are screamed, very loudly.

25 posted on 10/28/2005 12:43:13 PM PDT by Migraine
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To: Migraine

Makes sense - lol


26 posted on 10/28/2005 12:52:16 PM PDT by mlc9852
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To: blam

*


27 posted on 10/28/2005 12:54:02 PM PDT by Sam Cree (absolute reality - Miami)
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To: RightWhale
"Of the most feared warship in history, the Athenian trireme, not one survives."
Quite a few were lost at Salamis - what happened to the remnants? At least bronze ramming prows should have survived, even if everything else did not. Here at least the search area would be reasonably localized.
28 posted on 10/28/2005 12:54:03 PM PDT by GSlob
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To: GSlob
It is unlikely any boat constructed of organic materials and using the technology of the time could survive so long except by an extraordinary set of circumstances.

While there have been discoveries of the remains of sizable wooden ships in the waters of the Mediterranean and in the deserts of Egypt, the oldest (probably the Cheops pyramid boats at @2000 BC) are nowhere near the 50,000 years before the present date suggested in this article.

Since the boats in the two coast migration theory would be entirely organic and the biological zones they would be lost/abandoned in are particularly active, it is unlikely that they survived.

There is another factor to consider. Genetic testing of various Native Americans seem to argue they are all descended from a relative handful of migrating families. Given the amount of time that has passed, only a few would be needed to produce so many descendants. Whether you like the overland migration theory or the bi-coastal water migration theory, there were probably not a lot of people in the original groups. And that means not too many organic artifacts entered into the fossil record. After 500 centuries in the ground or water or somewhere in between, what's likely to be left except stone tools and other similarly hard objects?
29 posted on 10/28/2005 1:00:51 PM PDT by Captain Rhino (If you will just abandon logic, these things will make a lot more sense!)
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To: Captain Rhino
After 500 centuries in the ground or water or somewhere in between, what's likely to be left except stone tools and other similarly hard objects?

Lot of local open sites have no soft organic remains (not counting charcoal, bone & shell) after a mere 200 years.

30 posted on 10/28/2005 1:04:31 PM PDT by Coyoteman (I love the sound of beta decay in the morning!)
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To: RightWhale

North North Atlantic. Try island-hopping from Norway to Newfoundland in a primitive boat and see how long you last. Which is what the article was referencing.

Much of the coast of the North Pacific is by comparison warm and inviting.


31 posted on 10/28/2005 1:14:26 PM PDT by Restorer (Illegitimati non carborundum)
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To: Captain Rhino
IIRC, in the Mediterranean they did find stone ship anchors. Anchor seems to be a necessary part of a serious boat, and it had to be heavy - thus not likely to be organic.
32 posted on 10/28/2005 1:16:27 PM PDT by GSlob
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To: GSlob

Nah, the rules are to come across whatever way. Ireland, Iceland, Newfoundland. Not a problem. They were tougher, then, too, didn't know what they couldn't do.


33 posted on 10/28/2005 1:29:57 PM PDT by RightWhale (Repeal the law of the excluded middle)
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To: Young Werther

The public is generally unaware of the rancorous disputes that populate academia, diffusionism being one of the nastiest. Diffusionism is basically the anthropological theory that ancient cultures extended their influence and carried on trade across open oceans. This is but one of a host of oppressive and lying social engineering pillars that can be found also in physics (gravity as "fabric" of univers, solar "wind" is not plasma current), astronomy (planet are formed by disk accretion; black hole, big bang, dark matter are not the result of GIGO modeling), psychology (behaviorism is therapeutic, characterological determinants are genetic), liguistics (language independent of cultural evolution potential), genetics (acquired characteristics or learned behavior cannot become genetic), anthropology (mythology cannot reflect historic events), ad nauseum.

For some reason, any attempt to make diffusionism part of the fabric of anthropology or archaeology is met with ridicule, villification and career sabotage. Barry Fell and Thor Heyerdahl's theories are NOT welcome in mainstream academic jounals, which is why he went to consumer publication with his work.

My take is that the reason diffusionism is considered heresy is a) It implies that cultures of the dawn of civilization didn't have the smarts to navigate large stretches of open ocean, b) The great civilizations extended their influence via conquest rather than trade or active colonization, c) Civilizations evolved slowly via internal means rather than rapidly via cross fertilization of ideas d) Religious and Cultural ideas were home grown rather than disseminated.

A liberal socialist academia would want our notion of history to reject and civilizing influence that is not socialist in origin, ie commerce and evangelization are ligitimized in their minds only as coercive, warlike and unwelcome concepts.

/////////////////////////////////////////
walter alter artist - wiseguy - savant
____________________________
PORTFOLIO: http://infojockey.tripod.com/
PSYOPS: www.fortunecity.com/victorian/mill/1189


34 posted on 10/28/2005 2:49:22 PM PDT by Yollopoliuhqui (The Heresy of Diffusionism)
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To: Mike Darancette
"Didn't know there was anyone left alive that spoke Clovis."

Me too. I thought, Oh Boy!, when I saw the headlines.

35 posted on 10/28/2005 3:33:59 PM PDT by blam
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To: Captain Rhino
"Genetic testing of various Native Americans seem to argue they are all descended from a relative handful of migrating families."

Click on my link in post #6 and go on the 'journey'.

36 posted on 10/28/2005 3:39:47 PM PDT by blam
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To: Yollopoliuhqui
Barry Fell and Thor Heyerdahl

I think I would put these two gentlemen into separate groups.

I might add Erich von Daniken to Barry Fell's side though.

37 posted on 10/28/2005 3:43:00 PM PDT by Coyoteman (I love the sound of beta decay in the morning!)
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To: GSlob
Iberia, Not Siberia?
38 posted on 10/28/2005 3:47:47 PM PDT by blam
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To: GSlob
Immigrants From The Other Side (Clovis Is Solutrean?)
39 posted on 10/28/2005 4:00:32 PM PDT by blam
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To: blam

Well, high time for the Congress to put the border guards on that Solutrea border, and meanwhile we should send Minutemen there as a stopgap measure.


40 posted on 10/28/2005 4:07:45 PM PDT by GSlob
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To: Coyoteman
"I might add Erich von Daniken to Barry Fell's side though."

Nah. I have more respect for Fell than to lump him in with von Daniken.

Maybe with Gloria Farley

41 posted on 10/28/2005 4:15:50 PM PDT by blam
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To: blam
I had not remembered that article. Eastern US archaeology is a little too far away to keep up with.

We are indeed living in interesting times!

42 posted on 10/28/2005 4:35:34 PM PDT by Coyoteman (I love the sound of beta decay in the morning!)
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To: blam
Me too. I thought, Oh Boy

Clovis is the root language for Basque. :)

43 posted on 10/28/2005 5:02:09 PM PDT by Mike Darancette (Mesocons for Rice '08)
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To: Mike Darancette
"Clovis is the root language for Basque. :)"

The Relationship Between the Basque And Ainu

44 posted on 10/28/2005 5:09:16 PM PDT by blam
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To: blam; FairOpinion; Ernest_at_the_Beach; StayAt HomeMother; 24Karet; 3AngelaD; asp1; ...
Thanks Blam.

To all -- please ping me to other topics which are appropriate for the GGG list. Thanks.
Please FREEPMAIL me if you want on or off the
"Gods, Graves, Glyphs" PING list or GGG weekly digest
-- Archaeology/Anthropology/Ancient Cultures/Artifacts/Antiquities, etc.
Gods, Graves, Glyphs (alpha order)

45 posted on 10/28/2005 11:59:56 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (Down with Dhimmicrats! I last updated my FR profile on Sunday, August 14, 2005.)
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To: blam

Not so much "primal racism" as "pathological isolationism". Also a strong bias against navigation by a bunch of landlubbers. :')


46 posted on 10/29/2005 12:02:07 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (Down with Dhimmicrats! I last updated my FR profile on Sunday, August 14, 2005.)
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Michael Collins
(and believe me, the temptation for a Jethro Tull reference is huge right now):
http://www.utexas.edu/utpress/books/colclo.html

Dennis Stanford (looks like a good topic in its own right):
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/first/claimstan.html

New radiocarbon dates: Evidence puts man in North America 50,000 years ago
http://www.sc.edu/usctimes/articles/2004-11/topper_discovery.html

David G. Anderson:
http://web.utk.edu/~anthrop/faculty/anderson.html


47 posted on 10/29/2005 12:07:32 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (Down with Dhimmicrats! I last updated my FR profile on Sunday, August 14, 2005.)
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To: Mike Darancette

[rimshot!]

;')


48 posted on 10/29/2005 12:08:14 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (Down with Dhimmicrats! I last updated my FR profile on Sunday, August 14, 2005.)
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To: RightWhale

Good example. I do hope that the studies of sea bottoms at places of known large ancient battles eventually turn up some that have been in anoxia conditions.


49 posted on 10/29/2005 12:10:40 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (Down with Dhimmicrats! I last updated my FR profile on Sunday, August 14, 2005.)
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To: blam

Terrible headline....leads one to believe that Clovis language had been reconstructed.....

I wish someone had alerted me to this conference in advance. I would have attended.

That part about private collectors sharing their artifacts with archaeologists is in order. Some of my old homies in Central Kentucky have Paleoindian collections that exceed (in both quantity and quality) those of most universities and museums.


50 posted on 10/29/2005 4:43:44 AM PDT by Renfield (If Gene Tracy was the entertainment at your senior prom, YOU might be a redneck...)
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