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The H-1B swindle
http://www.infoworld.com/article/05/10/25/44OPreality_1.html ^

Posted on 10/29/2005 7:25:40 AM PDT by vrwc0915

It appears there is hard evidence to prove that employers are using the H-1B visa program to hire cheap labor; that is, to pay lower wages than the national average for programming jobs.

According to “The Bottom of the Pay Scale: Wages for H-1B Computer Programmers — F.Y. 2004,” a report by Programmers Guild board member John Miano, non-U.S. citizens working in the United States on an H-1B visa are paid “significantly less than their American counterparts.” How much less? “On average, applications for H-1B workers in computer occupations were for wages $13,000 less than Americans in the same occupation and state.”

Miano based his report on OES (Occupational Employment Statistics) data from the Bureau of Labor Statistics which estimates wages for the entire country by state and metropolitan area. The report’s H-1B wage data came from the U.S. Department of Labor’s H-1B disclosure Web site.

Miano went out of his way to be balanced, and whenever possible he gave the benefit of the doubt to the employer. For example, he used OES data from 2003 because this is the wage information that would have been available to the employers when filing an LCA (labor condition application).

Miano had some difficulty matching OES job codes with LCA job titles, which employers typically create. Where both the OES and the LCA listed a job as “programmer/analyst,” Miano took the conservative approach of assuming that the LCA was describing a programmer, a job title that typically earns a lower wage than a systems analyst.

Nonetheless, Miano’s report shows that wages paid to H-1B workers in computer programming occupations had a mean salary of $52,312, while the OES mean was $67,700; a difference of $15,388. The report also lists the OES median salary as $65,003, or $12,691 higher than the H-1B median.

When you look at computer job titles by state, California has one of the biggest differentials between OES salaries and H-1B salaries. The average salary for a programmer in California is $73,960, according to the OES. The average salary paid to an H-1B visa worker for the same job is $53,387; a difference of $20,573.

Here are some other interesting national wage comparisons: The mean salary of an H-1B computer scientist is $78,169, versus $90,146 according to the OES. For an H-1B network analyst, the mean salary is $55,358, versus the OES mean salary of $64,799. And for the title “system administrator,” there was a $17,478 difference in salary between the H-1B mean and the OES mean.

H-1B visa workers were also concentrated at the bottom end of the wage scale, with the majority of H-1B visa workers in the 10-24 percentile range. “That means the largest concentration of H-1B workers make less than [the] highest 75 percent of the U.S. wage earners,” the report notes.

While it would be difficult to prove that any one particular employer is hiring foreign workers to pay less, the statistics show us that, for whatever reason, this is exactly what is happening on a nationwide basis. Miano says lobbyists will admit that a small number of companies are abusing the H-1B program, but what he has found in this research is that almost everyone is abusing it.

“Abuse is by far more common than legitimate use,” he says.


TOPICS: Business/Economy
KEYWORDS: aliens; h1b; immigrantlist; immigration; obl; transnational; waronmiddleclass
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OBL ping
1 posted on 10/29/2005 7:25:41 AM PDT by vrwc0915
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To: vrwc0915

“On average, applications for H-1B workers in computer occupations were for wages $13,000 less than Americans in the same occupation and state.”



so?


2 posted on 10/29/2005 7:27:11 AM PDT by sure_fine (*not one to over kill the thought process*)
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To: vrwc0915
Well, Bush is allowing a flood of illegals in to do the work at the bottom of the labor chain, driving down wages for the unskilled Americans, I see no reason to favor any group.

The intention is to destroy the middle class of this country and it is succeeding.

3 posted on 10/29/2005 7:29:45 AM PDT by cynicom
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To: sure_fine

Basically, the problem with H1-B, I guess, is that although the per programmer cost is lesser, there is a net loss for the American economy since the money earned by the programmer will not be recycled back into the US economy via the tax system, as the programmer is not an American citizen.

I'm only guessing...


4 posted on 10/29/2005 7:31:01 AM PDT by CarrotAndStick (The articles posted by me needn't necessarily reflect my opinion.)
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To: sure_fine
H1B visas are supposed to only be issued when a US Citizen can not fill that role. This program was intended to help employers out with shortages, not allow them to pay below market rates! My point is that it's not just the blue collar jobs that are not available to US Citizens,companies are screwing the US and hiring foreigners at artificially low wages
5 posted on 10/29/2005 7:32:33 AM PDT by vrwc0915 (I do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against al)
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To: vrwc0915

do you want $400 or $800 pc's?
i'm not saying it's good or bad, but if this doesn't happen this task will be totaly outsourced overseas, but then again if that happens it will be $200 pc's


6 posted on 10/29/2005 7:35:31 AM PDT by JohnLongIsland
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To: cynicom

Under Reagan we has "trickle-down prosperity".

For reasons known but to God, the current administration's immigration and work policies seem hell-bent on "trickle-up poverty".


7 posted on 10/29/2005 7:38:25 AM PDT by coladirienzi
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To: vrwc0915
H1B applications are public documents by definition. The employer must post, publicly, their intentions to sponsor an applicant for a specific position (listing the salary) and accept applications from US citizens for the same job.

Once the posting period is complete, the employer must attest that absolutely NO qualified US citizens applied for the job. In the event a US citizen applied (qualified or not), the applicant's name and rationale for refusal must be submitted with the LCA.

Given this very public process, I find it astonishing that there are no stories of specific neglect or discrimination against US applicants. Comparing wage reports can be an interesting exercise, but a more compelling argument against the H1B would include the names and faces of those wronged. It is not enough to claim that US citizens can do the work theoretically.

8 posted on 10/29/2005 7:38:35 AM PDT by Mr. Bird
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To: A. Pole; hedgetrimmer; Willie Green; neutrino

ping


9 posted on 10/29/2005 7:39:35 AM PDT by Nowhere Man (Lutheran, Conservative, Neo-Victorian/Edwardian, Michael Savage in '08! - ACLU delenda est!)
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To: CarrotAndStick
there is a net loss for the American economy since the money earned by the programmer will not be recycled back into the US economy via the tax system, as the programmer is not an American citizen.

It is a common misconception that foreign nationals working in the US do not pay taxes. They do. At the same rate as a citizen.

10 posted on 10/29/2005 7:40:22 AM PDT by Mr. Bird
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To: CarrotAndStick

This is a way to keep the cost of wages down, nothing else. I hate to say but Ross Perot was correct, the "global economy" is going to kill America.


11 posted on 10/29/2005 7:42:18 AM PDT by nyconse (a)
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To: CarrotAndStick

H1-B's pay income tax in the U.S.


12 posted on 10/29/2005 7:42:33 AM PDT by 1rudeboy
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To: Mr. Bird; CarrotAndStick

Very true. The real issue is that the wages often don't get "recycled" in the U.S. economy, but are sent overseas.

The Indian and Pakistani tennis team guys we played against last week, aren't spending their paychecks at Home Depot to upgrade their houses, since they live in apartments. For an anecdotal example.


13 posted on 10/29/2005 7:44:13 AM PDT by FreedomPoster (Guns themselves are fairly robust; their chief enemies are rust and politicians) (NRA)
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To: cynicom

"Well, Bush is allowing a flood of illegals in to do the work at the bottom of the labor chain, driving down wages for the unskilled Americans"

Agree, but not just at the bottom. They have taken the 50,000 per year blue collar jobs from the middle class(except they are paid 35,000 with no benefits)


14 posted on 10/29/2005 7:44:43 AM PDT by calrighty (Taglines for sale or let......1 liners 50 cents! C'mon troops, finish em off!!)
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To: nyconse

"I hate to say but Ross Perot was correct, the "global economy" is going to kill America."

Only because of what this administration is doing; it doesn't have to happen at all!!



15 posted on 10/29/2005 7:46:51 AM PDT by calrighty (Taglines for sale or let......1 liners 50 cents! C'mon troops, finish em off!!)
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To: cynicom

Well, Bush is allowing a flood of illegals in to do the work at the bottom of the labor chain, driving down wages for the unskilled Americans, I see no reason to favor any group.
The intention is to destroy the middle class of this country and it is succeeding.>>>>>>>>>>>>>

What? I receive regular assurances from posters on FR that REAL wages in this country are higher than they have ever been and I believe every word of it, of course I also believe that the Great Pumpkin is going to bring me a new F-150 filled with bikini contest winners all eating pumpkin pie.


16 posted on 10/29/2005 7:47:15 AM PDT by RipSawyer (Acceptance of irrational thinking is expanding exponentiallly.)
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To: FreedomPoster

I forgot to mention, offshoring manufacturing industries to China, OTOH, is worse than daylight robbery, and a major failure for the security of America, and every other nation that faces a Chinese threat.


However, we all want sub-$500 PCs and dirt-cheap electronics, for which we all might have to pay a dear price in the near future...


17 posted on 10/29/2005 7:48:07 AM PDT by CarrotAndStick (The articles posted by me needn't necessarily reflect my opinion.)
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To: coladirienzi
If anyone believes these millions of illegals are all going to be rocket scientists that lower the incomes of our own scientists they are mistaken.

These millions are CHEAP labor, undermining the lower working class of this country.

18 posted on 10/29/2005 7:48:08 AM PDT by cynicom
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To: RipSawyer
At my home in NC there were hundreds of the "immigrants", sometimes living as many as 15 men in a small trailer.

Business contractors, (capitalists), were using them and paying them below minimum wage. All of this has a habit of moving upward and it is the middle class that will suffer.

The elite will always have theirs and the middle class will wonder what happened when it hits them.

19 posted on 10/29/2005 7:55:35 AM PDT by cynicom
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To: JohnLongIsland

What does cheap PC's have to do with lowering the wages of programmers usings the H1-B program?


20 posted on 10/29/2005 7:58:01 AM PDT by RockyMtnMan
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To: vrwc0915

as a business owner, would you hire someone totally unqualified for a position that you had no time to train someone for?


but really, my 'so?' remark was that I couldn't care less if they paid them 1/5 of what was going rate and made them sleep outside, I am fed up with immigration and immigrants


21 posted on 10/29/2005 7:58:46 AM PDT by sure_fine (*not one to over kill the thought process*)
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To: cynicom
If anyone believes these millions of illegals are all going to be rocket scientists that lower the incomes of our own scientists they are mistaken.

I think the U.S. issued 65,000 H1-B's this year, and there is talk of raising the limit to 95,000.

22 posted on 10/29/2005 8:00:52 AM PDT by 1rudeboy
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To: vrwc0915
We've got to keep our friends the Indians happy. And if it means a few American programmers can be paid McWages, look how it benefits business!

Sure am glad we've got a REPUBLICAN president letting this stuff happen. If it was a Democrat, it would suck.

23 posted on 10/29/2005 8:02:23 AM PDT by IronJack
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To: 1rudeboy
The top of the American middle class needs to look over their shoulder. Something is gaining on them and it is not prosperity.
24 posted on 10/29/2005 8:07:01 AM PDT by cynicom
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Comment #25 Removed by Moderator

To: cynicom

And it's not those 65,000 H1-B's, either. That is my point.


26 posted on 10/29/2005 8:08:22 AM PDT by 1rudeboy
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To: 1rudeboy

Not really. If you make less than say, 40k, you pay much less in income taxes. You know progressive income tax, sliding scale and all that.


27 posted on 10/29/2005 8:10:13 AM PDT by axes_of_weezles (mainstream extremist (Ha))
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To: cynicom

Does this mean that the Great Pumpkin is really NOT going to bring me that F-150? Waaaaahhhhhh!!


28 posted on 10/29/2005 8:10:41 AM PDT by RipSawyer (Acceptance of irrational thinking is expanding exponentiallly.)
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To: axes_of_weezles
Fair enough. But there is a reason you don't pay your cleaning lady $100,000/year. I've always found it amusing to speak of "net loss" with regard to tax revenue. Tax revenue is a net loss.
29 posted on 10/29/2005 8:12:38 AM PDT by 1rudeboy
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To: axes_of_weezles
Income tax.....Off subject a bit...

Something I had forgotten but refreshed my memory after reading a few days ago...

When Rockefeller was confirmed by Congress to be appointed VP under Ford...records showed he had not paid one dime of Federal income tax during the past eleven years.

30 posted on 10/29/2005 8:15:46 AM PDT by cynicom
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To: RipSawyer

Not only no F-150, you will be lucky if you are not dragged off to the Gulag.


31 posted on 10/29/2005 8:16:45 AM PDT by cynicom
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To: vrwc0915
People that work in the US on H-1B visas are really indentured servants. They are sponsored in by the company and are payed a lower wage. However, the company that sponsors them in has influence over them because should they decide to leave for a better wage, they are reported to the INS. Also, they have a tendency to move 2 or 3 families into single family apartments. The landlords turn a blind eye to this as they jack up the rent across the board for all families in the apartment complex. So not only is the American worker taking it in the shorts from loss of employment opportunities but his cost of living skyrockets as well. There are certainly enough American workers to fill the high-tech jobs here in America.
32 posted on 10/29/2005 8:20:48 AM PDT by NY Attitude (You are responsible for your safety until the arrival of Law Enforcement Officers!)
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To: NY Attitude

Those 2 or 3 families? What visas are they holding? I think you are confused.


33 posted on 10/29/2005 8:22:39 AM PDT by 1rudeboy
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To: 1rudeboy

No, they are here on H-1B visas. I have seen it up-close-and-personal when the boom was here in Silicon Valley. My rent shot up 33% during the .com era. Since many of the .commers have departed, my rent has been lowered to what it was before the .com era.


34 posted on 10/29/2005 8:28:13 AM PDT by NY Attitude (You are responsible for your safety until the arrival of Law Enforcement Officers!)
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To: NY Attitude
No, they are not here on H1-B visas. Somebody fed you false information.
35 posted on 10/29/2005 8:34:11 AM PDT by 1rudeboy
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To: vrwc0915

The way you can identify the jobs that are going to H1B visa holders is the way the jobs are advertised. The federal law requires that you post the hours of employment in the ad. So what you see typically is a job description which is essentially so specific it is a fingerprint of Hadji - the H1B holder they really want to hire, then it lists a salary (let's say $90,000/year) and then hours M-F 9-5. That's the giveaway that it is an ad merely meeting the requirement that the employer advertise for some period and then fail to come up with a U.S. citizen meeting the job requirements. Another giveaway - it's in the smallest type font available in whatever publication it is located.


36 posted on 10/29/2005 8:45:49 AM PDT by Wally_Kalbacken
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To: sure_fine
"so?"

It's an abuse of the law because there are plenty of people that can do those jobs. It forces down wages, forces down tax revenue, which ultimately makes it a national security issue.

Anything else?

37 posted on 10/29/2005 8:47:46 AM PDT by DaGman
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To: sure_fine
The SO is that the companies in lets say India that sponsor the H1B programmers reimburse the programmers for living expense such as housing and commuting. Many of these Indian companies own the condos or rent the apartments that the H1b programmers live in. This allows the programmer to live on the lower salary. This is not a level playing field. I know this from first hand experience
38 posted on 10/29/2005 8:51:42 AM PDT by ghitma (Lifter)
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To: ghitma

H1-B visas require an American sponsor. Are you thinking of L visas?


39 posted on 10/29/2005 8:57:50 AM PDT by 1rudeboy
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To: nyconse
I hate to say but Ross Perot was correct, the "global economy" is going to kill America.

What's going to kill America is taxation, regulation, and social welfare. I'm not talking about helping out the Katrina victims (as a clear example) when I say social welfare. I'm talking about things like the bill before Congress that Rush mentioned the other day to buy set top devices that allow poor people to watch TV without having to buy a new digital set.

Taxation and regulation have already driven many businesses overseas or out of business. When you make the cost too high to do business in one locale, business will migrate. Business profitability is all about maximizing revenue and minimizing costs. The laws of economics are like the laws of physics - they cannot be changed or defeated. Lose money and your business dies.

That, and the hatred that the socialist media spews on a daily basis toward American business about how they only want to make a profit, how they are killing the environment and their workers, how they're corrupt, etc. I remember how everyone used to say "I don't want to end up working in some factory". Well, guess what, guys, you got your wish. Politicians and the bureaucracy chased those jobs right on down to Mexico, and to China.

40 posted on 10/29/2005 9:02:03 AM PDT by Hardastarboard
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To: vrwc0915
It appears there is hard evidence to prove that employers are using the H-1B visa program to hire cheap labor; that is, to pay lower wages than the national average for programming jobs.

Programmers that wrote this are not worth a penny because this thinking reveal shear stupidity and ignorance of the author. How does wage differential "prove" the intention?

An employer looks for a particular skill and submits an application for the visa. If it is proven that he cannot hire an American with that skill, the visa is granted. The relationship with state ends at this point, and the market begins. The law of supply and demand determines the price (wage). Since the supply of foreign labor is higher than domestic, the price is lower. That's all.

H1-B vigilantes, such as this author, are socialist that hate markets. They want the rest of Americans to subsidize their standard of living.,

41 posted on 10/29/2005 9:03:13 AM PDT by TopQuark
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To: cynicom
The intention is to destroy the middle class of this country and it is succeeding.

Firstly, there is nothing more prone to error than to impute intentions to people, and to try it without overwhelming evidence is stupid.

Secondly, you are appear to aspire to socialist views and dislike the markets, which made this country the most prosperous in the world. The truth is that programmers enjoyed inflated salaries because of their shortage for decades --- just like gas prices were higher due to the shortage caused by the hurricane. These inflated salaries were paid by the rest of us, Americans.

These shortage are over: both gas prices and IT salaries are coming down. This is normal action of market forces, and you appear to hate that. Why do you like government intervention and socialism? Rather, why do you do that while thinking of yourself as being conservative?

Also, why is that you, supposedly a conservative, have no clue about how your country works? You should know that presidents, whether Bush or any other, have nothing to do with the economy.

42 posted on 10/29/2005 9:10:59 AM PDT by TopQuark
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To: 1rudeboy

Wouldn't you think that the .coms and major manufacturers sponser these people in? As I said in my original post they are essentially indentured servants, the company that they work for sponsered them in.


43 posted on 10/29/2005 9:11:36 AM PDT by NY Attitude (You are responsible for your safety until the arrival of Law Enforcement Officers!)
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To: CarrotAndStick
Basically, the problem with H1-B, I guess, is that although the per programmer cost is lesser, there is a net loss for the American economy since the money earned by the programmer will not be recycled back into the US economy via the tax system, as the programmer is not an American citizen.

Two problems with this reasoning. Firstly, most money is recycled because that employee pays for his housing, food, transportation, etc, here in the country. And, secondly, you do not take into account the product (s)he creates --- that very product that would not exist without him.

44 posted on 10/29/2005 9:13:23 AM PDT by TopQuark
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To: TopQuark
You seem to be very personal. Why not constrain yourself to the subject.
45 posted on 10/29/2005 9:13:26 AM PDT by cynicom
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To: CarrotAndStick
pays for his housing, food, transportation, etc,

An important omission on my part: he also pays taxes.

46 posted on 10/29/2005 9:14:15 AM PDT by TopQuark
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To: vrwc0915; Willie Green; Wolfie; ex-snook; Jhoffa_; FITZ; arete; FreedomPoster; Red Jones; ...
The average salary for a programmer in California is $73,960, according to the OES. The average salary paid to an H-1B visa worker for the same job is $53,387; a difference of $20,573.

Regulations for H1B visas:

[...] Before making an H1B application, an H1B dependent employer must make "good faith" attempts to recruit resident US workers using "procedures that meet industry-wide standards" and "offering compensation at least as great as that offered to the H1B alien".
[...]
To pay the H1B worker at least the higher of the wage paid to similar workers in the same company or the "prevailing wage" (usually determined by the relevant State Employment Services Agency) for the occupation in the area the worker will be employed; [...]

47 posted on 10/29/2005 9:19:03 AM PDT by A. Pole (Out West, the aspens will already be turning.They turn in clusters, because their roots connect them)
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To: vrwc0915
companies are screwing the US and hiring foreigners at artificially low wages

Suppose that is true. How do you know that are "companies are screwing the US" employees? Perhaps, it is the other way around --- the U.S. employees are trying to screw the rest of us (companies) by demanding wages that are not worth their keep? Outsourcing prevents them from doing so.

As for H1-B, it's kind of tiring to hear programmers' whining that they, with barely any education, cannot make $150,000/year any more. Great many H1-B visas go to college and university faculty. Go count how many American-born faculty are professors in major universities. Then ask yourself, why? The check how well Americans read and write in their native language, how many of them have even basic quantitative skills, how many have even basic awareness of different times and countries. The truth is, Americans don't want to do this hard work as they used to; they do not want to become professors of mathematics, engineering and business administration. Foreigners do. They get H1-B visas.

48 posted on 10/29/2005 9:21:51 AM PDT by TopQuark
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To: cynicom
Why not constrain yourself to the subject

Gladly. Please explain why socialism that you advocate is better and what makes it consistent with conservative ideology.

49 posted on 10/29/2005 9:23:13 AM PDT by TopQuark
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To: TopQuark

I re read and am unable to find any post that says..As Cynicom I advocate socialism....


50 posted on 10/29/2005 9:25:40 AM PDT by cynicom
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