Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

U.S. Ship In N. Korea (USS Pueblo) Get Her Back
The Washington Times ^ | 10/29/05 | Andrew Salmon

Posted on 10/29/2005 7:35:16 PM PDT by takbodan

click here to read article


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-5051-100101-122 last
To: takbodan

Sink the Pueblo over there or ignore her. Getting her back would only encumber us with an old heap loaded down with North Korean listening devices or WMD's.

101 posted on 10/30/2005 1:13:22 AM PST by Southack (Media Bias means that Castro won't be punished for Cuban war crimes against Black Angolans in Africa)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: BIGLOOK
I would question if the crews were ever told or given written orders that it was acceptable to surrender the aircraft in order to save themselves. Possible in a changed world.

In my last visit to NSA in the 90s, I had the privilege of long interesting conversations with current Air Force members of the 91 Rec SQ, including the SQ commander, a lady.

Perhaps I missed something but there was never mentioned any change of unwritten expectations.

102 posted on 10/30/2005 2:43:50 AM PST by cynicom
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 86 | View Replies]

To: coladirienzi
"We are the US NAVY!" "You will NEVER surrender!!!" "You will WIN, or you will DIE!" "You will NEVER, EVER, HAUL DOWN THE FLAG, and you will kill anyone who tries to do so!!"

Aye! Nail the colors to the mast and go down fighting. Death before dishonor.

LibKill, USMC, coldwar.

103 posted on 10/30/2005 3:06:45 AM PST by LibKill (Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy. - Benjamin Franklin)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 99 | View Replies]

To: Southack

I'd put her at the Naval Academy to have the middies remember this event.


104 posted on 10/30/2005 4:09:24 AM PST by takbodan (.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 101 | View Replies]

To: LibKill
Aye! Nail the colors to the mast and go down fighting. Death before dishonor.LibKill, USMC, coldwar

Only in the movies. Not everyone goes down fighting to the death. As Patton said, "The object of war is not to die for your country, but to make the other bastard die for his."

105 posted on 10/30/2005 6:00:20 AM PST by kabar
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 103 | View Replies]

To: kabar
Only in the movies. Not everyone goes down fighting to the death. As Patton said, "The object of war is not to die for your country, but to make the other bastard die for his."

Fair enough.

I suppose that I may value my life a little less than others value theirs.

106 posted on 10/30/2005 6:05:08 AM PST by LibKill (Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy. - Benjamin Franklin)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 105 | View Replies]

To: LibKill

If you remember, in real life and in the movies, Patton told one General, I forget his name, do it or don't come back. That one happened in Sicily.


107 posted on 10/30/2005 6:12:59 AM PST by cynicom
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 106 | View Replies]

To: LibKill

Surivival is a very strong instinct. I don't think I could ever be a suicide bomber.


108 posted on 10/30/2005 6:19:06 AM PST by kabar
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 106 | View Replies]

To: coladirienzi
I was in Navy boot camp in San Diego when this happened.

I was in Air Force boot camp in San Antonio when this happened.

109 posted on 10/30/2005 6:30:54 AM PST by Mark17
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 99 | View Replies]

To: kabar
I don't suppose that I could do the kamikaze thing either. Unless there was a damn good 100proof reason.

And the guy who was giving the orders would have to go with me. :)

110 posted on 10/30/2005 6:41:50 AM PST by LibKill (Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy. - Benjamin Franklin)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 108 | View Replies]

To: cynicom
In all my time, from briefing to debrief, suicide, whether individual or en mass, was never presented as an option. Survival, evasion, resistance and escape were the options, although this is the unofficial code.
Check out
www.anzwers.org/free//navyscpo/all_members_service_roster
Go to the Home page, scroll down to Aircraft Duty, then to Airborne DIRSUP VQ1/VQ2 fatalities.
Things were tough enough without air crews committing suicide.
111 posted on 10/30/2005 8:26:49 AM PST by BIGLOOK (I once opposed keelhauling but recently have come to my senses.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 102 | View Replies]

To: BIGLOOK

Suicide?? That is your assessment not mine.


112 posted on 10/30/2005 8:28:37 AM PST by cynicom
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 111 | View Replies]

To: kabar
S.E.R.E......for when things get out of control.
USS Pueblo's situation was clearly out of control. Bucher could have ordered abandon ship and scuttled her but the Korcoms were shooting the crew on the decks.
113 posted on 10/30/2005 8:37:04 AM PST by BIGLOOK (I once opposed keelhauling but recently have come to my senses.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 105 | View Replies]

To: BIGLOOK
I went through USN SERE training at Widbey Island. It also included a prison camp segment, including placing you in small boxes the size of foot lockers, suspending you upside down in a barrel of water, and other types of physical and mental abuse. Believe it or not, they were able to break some people and had them sign phony confessions. Claustrophobia was the main cause some were broken.
114 posted on 10/30/2005 8:44:29 AM PST by kabar
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 113 | View Replies]

To: cynicom
P3s don't ditch. Ditching is suicide.
What exactly should have been done?


If it's any consolation, the entire crew returned safely and later we got the A/C back. During the flight in to an emergency landing (under escort) the crew destroyed everything or pitched it into the sea.
BTW, we also stiffed the Chicoms for the bill.
115 posted on 10/30/2005 8:46:59 AM PST by BIGLOOK (I once opposed keelhauling but recently have come to my senses.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 112 | View Replies]

To: kabar
I went through SERE at Coronado/North Island. Bucher and the Pueblo crew just arrived there for Inquiry and Courts Martial.
116 posted on 10/30/2005 8:51:00 AM PST by BIGLOOK (I once opposed keelhauling but recently have come to my senses.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 114 | View Replies]

To: BIGLOOK

I went through in 1967, just before going to Vietnam.


117 posted on 10/30/2005 8:59:50 AM PST by kabar
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 116 | View Replies]

To: kabar; LibKill
Aye! Nail the colors to the mast and go down fighting. Death before dishonor.LibKill, USMC, coldwar

Only in the movies. Not everyone goes down fighting to the death.

Even in the case of Trafalgar, British crews surrendered.

"What!?!? I never read that!!!"

The drama of Trafalgar did not end with the last gun. After the battle, a catastrophic storm came in and endangered not only the British fleet but also their numerous captured prizes.

During the storm, the captured and crippled French flagship Bucentaure broke adrift from her British tow and was drifting towards the lee shore. The British prize crew aboard her was not numerous enough to prevent disaster and the wounded French Captain Prigny, still aboard, called together the British prize crew officers and requested that they voluntarily surrender and allow the remaining French crew to man the ship in order to avoid further loss of life.

The British prize crew officers agreed and surrendered the Bucentaure back to the French. The Bucentaure was then jury-rigged by the French crew, avoided disaster and was to able to make it's way back to Cadiz where it ran aground at the harbor entrance. Before the Bucentaure broke up, all hand were able to abandon ship without loss of life.

Afterwards, the British prize crew was released and there was no dishonor associated with the surrender that was necessary to prevent needless loss of life.

The Royal Navy, however, made a clear distinction in regards to surrendering to avoid needless loss of life and surrender when it involved allowing the enemy to gain possession of Royal Navy secrets that would put the rest of the Fleet in jeopardy.

At the time, the Royal Navy had a set of "private signals", which were changed periodically, that was their version of an IFF (Indetification: Friend or Foe) system. If an unknown man-of-war was spottted, the "private signal"....a nonesense string of numbers and letters.... was run up and, if it was a British man-of-war, the unknown ship would then reply with the appropriate private signal listed in the book in order to identify itself as British. (Sailing under false colors before battle was an accepted ruse de guerre at the time.)

A Royal Navy Captain could surrender, without dishonor, to overwhelming force, after fighting to the best of his ability, to avoid unnecessary loss of life. However, there were very severe penalties for any Captain that allowed the The Signal Book for Ships of War to fall into the hands of the enemy. It was therefore the responsibility of the Captain not surrender until he has personally ensured that The Signal Book for Ships of War was completely destroyed.

The German U-Boat commander that allowed an Enigma machine to be captured did immeasurable damage to the German war effort.

A ship or aircraft with, say, nuclear weapons aboard must never be allowed to fall into North Korean hands regardless of the loss of life.

So, sometimes, a surrender is not merely a surrender and a ship, aircraft or boat is not merely a ship, aircraft or boat.

Where the USS Pueblo and the P-3 fall into this spectrum, none of us know as we have no need to know. I trust that each commander had been instructed and knew exactly what his duty required and that the U.S. Navy held each of them to those requirements.

118 posted on 10/30/2005 10:40:21 AM PST by Polybius
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 105 | View Replies]

To: Polybius
Thank you for your scholarly analysis. You truely have a good grasp on history.

Me, I'm just an ex-sergeant of USMC extraction.

My training, instinct, and yes, upbringing, tell me to fight to the death.

I could be wrong. I have been wrong many-many times.

119 posted on 10/30/2005 10:44:59 AM PST by LibKill (Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy. - Benjamin Franklin)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 118 | View Replies]

To: LibKill
Thank you for your scholarly analysis. You truely have a good grasp on history. Me, I'm just an ex-sergeant of USMC extraction. My training, instinct, and yes, upbringing, tell me to fight to the death.

Well, that is why I always felt perfectly safe during the year I spent in Guantanamo as a medical officer, surrounded by the Cuban Army, during the height of the Cold War. Before they got to me, they had to get through you and I knew that was not going to happen.

Semper Fi!

120 posted on 10/30/2005 11:11:09 AM PST by Polybius
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 119 | View Replies]

To: Myrddin
The guy who allowed it was promoted to captain. There were 3 stars in the office who could have intervened and did not.

Now, if that clown sitting across from your Dad had been ON a ship, his career would have ended.

Sitting he was sitting in an office in the E-ring, he gets promoted.

Truly, the Navy way. No accountability for the guys behind the scenes. Used to make me nuts.

121 posted on 10/30/2005 5:30:12 PM PST by TruthNtegrity ("I regret that by Saturday I didn't realize that LA was dysfunctional." Michael Brown, 9/27/05)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 45 | View Replies]

To: TruthNtegrity
When my dad was XO on the destroyer Marshall and destroyer tender Prairie, I admired the Navy. I considered it a possible future employment. By the time he finished 2 1/2 years at the Pentagon, a couple years as XO/CO of the Arlington, the 7 years as XO of 32nd St Naval Station (San Diego), I was no longer interested.

I make my contributions as a civilian DoD contractor.

122 posted on 10/30/2005 6:22:54 PM PST by Myrddin
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 121 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-5051-100101-122 last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson