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Mark Steyn: Russia is dying and Islamists will grab parts of the carcass
The Australian ^ | October 31, 2005 | Mark Steyn

Posted on 10/30/2005 11:04:36 AM PST by Dundee

Mark Steyn: Russia is dying and Islamists will grab parts of the carcass

REMEMBER the months before 9/11? The new US President had his first meeting with the Russian President. "I looked the man in the eye and found him very straightforward and trustworthy," George W. Bush said after two hours with Vladimir Putin. "I was able to get a sense of his soul." I'm all for speaking softly and carrying a big stick, but that's way too soft.

Some experts started calling Vlad the most Westernised Russian strongman since Peter the Great and cooing about a Russo-American alliance that would be one of the cornerstones of the post-Cold War world.

It's not like that today.

From China to Central Asia to Ukraine, from its covert efforts to maintain Saddam in power to its more or less unashamed patronage of Iran's nuclear ambitions, Moscow has been at odds with Washington over every key geopolitical issue, and a few non-key ones, too, culminating in Putin's tirade to Bush that the US was flooding Russia with substandard chicken drumsticks and keeping the best ones for itself. It was a poultry complaint but indicative of a retreat into old-school Kremlin paranoia.

Russia's export of ideology was the decisive factor in the history of the 20th century. It seems to me entirely possible that the implosion of Russia could be the decisive factor in the 21st century.

As Iran's nuclear program suggests, in many of the geopolitical challenges to the US, there's usually a Russian component in the background.

In fairness to Putin, he's in a wretched position. Russia is literally dying. From a population peak in 1992 of 148 million, it will be down to below 130 million by 2015 and thereafter dropping to perhaps 50 or 60 million by the end of the century.

The longer Russia goes without arresting the death spiral, the harder it is to pull out of it, and when it comes to the future, most Russian women are voting with their foetus: 70 per cent of pregnancies are aborted. A smaller population needn't necessarily be a problem but Russia is facing simultaneously a huge drain of wealth out of the system.

Add to that the unprecedented strains on a ramshackle public health system. Russia is the sick man of Europe, and would still look pretty sick if you moved him to Africa. It has the fastest-growing rate of HIV infection in the world. By 2010, AIDS will be killing between 250,000 and 750,000 Russians every year. It will become a nation of babushkas, unable to muster enough young soldiers to secure its borders, enough young businessmen to secure its economy or enough young families to secure its future. True, there are parts of Russia that are exceptions to these malign trends. Can you guess which regions they are? They start with a "Mu" and end with a "slim".

So the world's largest country is dying and the only question is how violent its death throes are. Yesterday's Russia was characterised by Winston Churchill as a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma. Today's has come unwrapped: it's a crisis in a disaster inside a catastrophe. Most of the big international problems operate within certain geographic constraints: Africa has AIDS, the Middle East has Islamists, North Korea has nukes. But Russia's got the lot: an African-level AIDS crisis and an Islamist separatist movement sitting on top of the biggest pile of nukes on the planet.

Of course, the nuclear materials are all in "secure" facilities: more secure, one hopes, than the supposedly secure public buildings in Nalchik that the Islamists took over with such ease two weeks ago. They also killed a big bunch of people.

Poor old Russia is awash with resources but fatally short of Russians and, in the end, warm bodies are the one indispensable resource.

What would you do if you were Putin? What have you got to keep your rotting corpse of a country as some kind of player?

You've got nuclear knowhow, which a lot of ayatollahs and dictators are interested in.

That's the danger for America: that most of what Russia has to trade is likely to be damaging to US interests. In its death throes, it could bequeath the world several new Muslim nations, a nuclear Middle East and a stronger China.

Russia's calculation is that sooner or later we'll be back in a bipolar world and that, in almost any scenario, there's more advantage in being part of the non-American pole.

In 1989, with the Warsaw Pact crumbling before his eyes, poor old Mikhail Gorbachev received a helpful bit of advice from the cocky young upstart on the block, Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini: "The Islamic Republic of Iran, as the greatest and most powerful base of the Islamic world, can easily help fill up the ideological vacuum of your system."

In an odd way, that's what happened everywhere except in the Kremlin. As communism retreated, radical Islam seeped into Afghanistan and Indonesia and the Balkans. Crazy guys holed up in Philippine jungles and the tri-border region of Argentina, Brazil and Paraguay, who would have been Marxist fantasists a generation or two back, are now Islamists: it's the ideology du jour. And, despite Gorbachev turning down the offer, it will be Russia's fate to have large chunks of its turf annexed by the Islamic world.

We are witnessing a remarkable event: the death of a great nation not through war or devastation but through its inability to rouse itself from its own suicidal tendencies. The ideological vacuum was mostly filled with a nihilist fatalism. Churchill got it wrong: Russia is a vacuum wrapped in a nullity inside an abyss.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Editorial; Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events; Russia; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: alqaedarussia; globaljihad; russia; steyn
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1 posted on 10/30/2005 11:04:37 AM PST by Dundee
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To: Dundee

Deny God and that's what happens.


2 posted on 10/30/2005 11:12:23 AM PST by Pittsburg Phil
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To: Dundee
Russia's nuclears are chit, most will crash land on the launch pad.

Let them die, they are of little use to the civilized world.

Maybe some day a viable government will arise out of the ashes; trying to deal with their government today is useless as they have no control over all their myriad appendages and out of control apparatus's.
3 posted on 10/30/2005 11:14:16 AM PST by mmercier (something under the bed is drooling...)
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To: A. Pole; MarMema; Mount Athos; airborne; RusIvan; YoungCorps; OldCorps; FairOpinion; RussianBoor; ..

Ping. Mark Steyn article.


4 posted on 10/30/2005 11:15:16 AM PST by GarySpFc (Sneakypete, De Oppresso Liber)
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To: Pittsburg Phil

Is this the same Russia that has a gdp growth of 10% and endless oil wealth? And why are they loosing population?


5 posted on 10/30/2005 11:16:40 AM PST by uscabjd ( a)
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To: Dundee

Wonder why China is not seen as a threat to Russia??


6 posted on 10/30/2005 11:18:22 AM PST by cynicom
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To: Dundee
"Russia is literally dying. From a population peak in 1992 of 148 million, it will be down to below 130 million by 2015 and thereafter dropping to perhaps 50 or 60 million by the end of the century."

".... most Russian women are voting with their foetus: 70 per cent of pregnancies are aborted."

"Russia is the sick man of Europe, and would still look pretty sick if you moved him to Africa. It has the fastest-growing rate of HIV infection in the world. By 2010, AIDS will be killing between 250,000 and 750,000 Russians every year."

"Russia's got the lot: an African-level AIDS crisis and an Islamist separatist movement sitting on top of the biggest pile of nukes on the planet."

"Russia's calculation is that sooner or later we'll be back in a bipolar world and that, in almost any scenario, there's more advantage in being part of the non-American pole."

Steyn appears to have a good grasp of the situation.

7 posted on 10/30/2005 11:20:48 AM PST by Mr. Mojo
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To: Dundee

I am not willing to count the Russians out quite yet.

Hitler made the same mistake in the late 30's....


It's going to take a couple generations for the Russians to grow out of the filth that was Communism....


8 posted on 10/30/2005 11:20:55 AM PST by MikefromOhio
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To: GarySpFc

I have long recognized that Russia's negative growth rate is a certain future crisis that could doom the country.

The government needs to do much more to encourage more births.


9 posted on 10/30/2005 11:21:19 AM PST by Mount Athos
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Comment #10 Removed by Moderator

To: MikeinIraq

http://www.mosnews.com/news/2004/09/09/kasparov.shtml


11 posted on 10/30/2005 11:27:19 AM PST by Do not dub me shapka broham
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To: Do not dub me shapka broham
In a column for The Wall Street Journal Kasparov wrote that “Putin must go,” and said that the president showed his “true colors” as a typical Soviet-style leader in his speech after the hostage-taking in Beslan.

From the Article. Exactly what I said. Putin was a crony back in the 80's. I doubt he is a believing communist, but I DO think that the brainwashing that IS communism and certain aspects (authoritarianism) still color his thinking today.
12 posted on 10/30/2005 11:30:06 AM PST by MikefromOhio
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To: Dundee
"Putin's tirade to Bush that the US was flooding Russia with substandard chicken drumsticks and keeping the best ones for itself."
But it is the old Russian practice: in his "Domostroi" manual on household management (written around 1550s) arch-priest Sylvester, confessor to Ivan the Terrible, recommended that the food which started spoiling was to be given as alms to the poor and the needy, for it would be good for the food owner's soul and good enough for the recipients. So what's wrong with it ????
13 posted on 10/30/2005 11:32:08 AM PST by GSlob
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To: Waywardson
That's the danger for America: that most of what Russia has to trade is likely to be damaging to US interests. In its death throes, it could bequeath the world several new Muslim nations, a nuclear Middle East and a stronger China.

Thoughts?

14 posted on 10/30/2005 11:35:12 AM PST by lawgirl (Sure I believe in intelligent design. The best accident we've come up with is Mary in grilled cheese)
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To: Dundee
thereafter dropping to perhaps 50 or 60 million by the end of the century.

It's turning into one giant Canada.

15 posted on 10/30/2005 11:36:13 AM PST by My2Cents (Dead people voting is the closest the Democrats come to believing in eternal life.)
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To: Dundee
I disagree with the bottom line: Russia is not dying.
Of all the former Communist pitholes in the world, Russia suffered, perhaps, the most, only because it had the most to lose.
Their culture (history, tradition, religion) that is, the soul of Russia, was STRIPPED, FLAYED, CRUCIFIED, GULAGED, DEBASED and all but obliterated with the greatest genocidal effort this planet has ever seen.

The attempt at communist-self-genocide was an 80-year, 80 L-O-N-G years year tale of abyssmal tragedy and misery to the millions and millions of Russians (and an enormous expense [trillion$] to us).

The Russians are back BECAUSE Communism failed (with the relentless "help" of the U.S./Reagan, the Catholic Church/Poland/Solidarity, Soviet bloc countries, East Germany, ETC.). Their culture (history, religion, tradition, that is, their soul) did survive because it was a very strong one and the Russian people were determined that it do so.

It will take the Russians at least three generations to recover. But, that is only my humble little guessimate. Who knows.

Putin is for Russia. No one gave a damn about Russia other than to defeat the Evil Empire. Putin will serve Russia and he will continue to go a good job. (My opinion)

He will continued to be villified by us and by all other countries to whom he doesn't kneel or bend over for. He will never do enough. What he does will never be good enough. No matter what he says or does, he WILL be considered wrong.

That he refrains from obvious comments like, "The hell with you," "Where were you when....," "Yeah, like this is going to be good for us......" "What's in it for us? Nothing? Oh, surprise, surprise," "Who are you to tell us how we MUST deal with Iran or any other country," is amazing.

I don't want to go to Russia; I'm not enamored with the Russians we have here; I'm not in love with their culture, religion or language; I don't like poetry or their icons and their operas are long, boring and tedious (zzzz too many verbose, weeping sopranos--no comments here on verbosity, please). However, their contributions of music, ballet, literature (thick books, depressing books, plays, characters), science, etc., are fantastic. I admire and respect their culture, that is, their soul.
I can't say the same for other countires, non-communist, communist and/or post communist countries. No names, please. :o)

16 posted on 10/30/2005 11:42:42 AM PST by starfish923 ( Socrates: It is never right to do wrong.)
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To: mmercier

An unloaded gun is as much of a threat to someone as a loaded one, if they don't know it's unloaded.

An Islamofascist with a nuke -- any nuke -- suddenly becomes a key player to be negotiated with.


17 posted on 10/30/2005 11:44:34 AM PST by Ghost of Philip Marlowe (Liberals are blind. They are the dupes of Leftists who know exactly what they're doing.)
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To: MikeinIraq
1. I am not willing to count the Russians out quite yet.
2. Hitler made the same mistake in the late 30's....
3. It's going to take a couple generations for the Russians to grow out of the filth that was Communism....

1. Me neither.

2. So did Napoleon 100 years earlier.

3. I'd say AT LEAST three generations.

18 posted on 10/30/2005 11:45:20 AM PST by starfish923 ( Socrates: It is never right to do wrong.)
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To: MikeinIraq
From the Article. Exactly what I said. Putin was a crony back in the 80's. I doubt he is a believing communist, but I DO think that the brainwashing that IS communism and certain aspects (authoritarianism) still color his thinking today.

Agreed.

So does his black-belt training in martial arts.
As does his upbringing in the Russian Orthodoxy. His mother was a devout Christain. Putin attends Mass regularly as well.

He is an interesting hybrid.

19 posted on 10/30/2005 11:48:59 AM PST by starfish923 ( Socrates: It is never right to do wrong.)
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To: GarySpFc; zagor-te-nej; Lion in Winter; Honorary Serb; jb6; Incorrigible; DTA; ma bell; joan; ...

Why does this come as a surprise? Heck, the West already has shown itself willing to slice off parts of the former Yugoslavia and hand them to the Muhammedans in a modern-day Munich Agreement.

I've no doubt the Muhammedans hope they'll be as stupid when it comes to former Soviet areas.


20 posted on 10/30/2005 11:49:48 AM PST by FormerLib (Kosova: "land stolen from Serbs and given to terrorist killers in a futile attempt to appease them.")
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To: cynicom
Wonder why China is not seen as a threat to Russia??

They are not competitors. Russia produces oil and China manufactures. China already has a lot of unpopulated land and does not need the land Russia has. China has a population density lower than Europe if you include the land that is unpopulated. Russia has better nukes than China. There is just no reason for war.

21 posted on 10/30/2005 11:50:13 AM PST by staytrue
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To: uscabjd
Is this the same Russia that has a gdp growth of 10% and endless oil wealth? And why are they loosing population?

Italy has the lowest birth rate on the planet.
Go figure.
It has to do with money, I'm told.

22 posted on 10/30/2005 11:50:14 AM PST by starfish923 ( Socrates: It is never right to do wrong.)
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To: starfish923
The longer Russia goes without arresting the death spiral, the harder it is to pull out of it

The problem is, a declining population usually means a declining economy which means a further decline in population, etc.

Everyone likes to bash immigration to the US. But immigration means GDP growth.

23 posted on 10/30/2005 11:53:24 AM PST by staytrue
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Comment #24 Removed by Moderator

To: staytrue

Nearing two billion people, with limited oil, you can see no reason China might want to expand????


25 posted on 10/30/2005 11:57:18 AM PST by cynicom
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Comment #26 Removed by Moderator

To: cynicom

I suspect China will end up with a lot of Siberia.


27 posted on 10/30/2005 12:04:44 PM PST by Daralundy
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To: mmercier
Umm, it only takes one. If they sell the warhead, the Islamonazis can just smuggle it in a ship. Make no mistake, Russia is a proud and powerful country.

Russia also has a lot of oil as well. If we were smart, we'd help Russia by buying their oil and make 'ol Vlad understand that we're not too happy about them arming our enemies. Make no mistake, I think Vlad wants to resurrect their past greatness by repackaging communism but with himself firmly in charge. You could say that by buying their oil we're extending their lifespan and would allow them to do exactly that. But, if in their death throes they think they have nothing to lose, they will trade their nuclear knowledge, material and warheads for a chance to just postpone the inevitable for a day.

We need to give Vlad the opportunity to save Russia with our help but he has to make a commitment to NOT arm or help our enemies. It might also help if he realizes that our enemies (radical Islam) are his enemies.

28 posted on 10/30/2005 12:04:46 PM PST by Lx (Do you like it, do you like it. Scott? I call it Mr. and Mrs. Tennerman chili.)
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To: Dundee

Excellent post. Thanks!


29 posted on 10/30/2005 12:08:50 PM PST by StoneGiant (Power without morality is disaster. Morality without power is useless.)
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To: Daralundy

There is one large slice of Siberia that China has never recognized as being Russian.<p.

Difficult to see how the Russia/China thing will play out.


30 posted on 10/30/2005 12:10:51 PM PST by cynicom
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To: Dundee
In fairness to Putin, he's in a wretched position. Russia is literally dying. From a population peak in 1992 of 148 million, it will be down to below 130 million by 2015 and thereafter dropping to perhaps 50 or 60 million by the end of the century

This is an old story I read in the Atlantic Monthly years ago, I think by Robert Kaplan if I remember right.

Predicting the future that far out is plain silly. All it takes is one inspirational leader to turn a country on a dime.

The left over commies are a drag on Russia. I don't expect any of them acquired a work ethic since Glastnos and Perestroika. Once the commies die out, and that capitalism shows that it rewards those that work, I think the downward spiral in Russia sill stop. Given its natural resources and intellectual capital, it may even rise up as the strongman of Eurasia.

Steyn is also silly to think Islam is going to carve up Russia. The whole of Islam still can't rid itself of 6,000,000 or so Jews.

31 posted on 10/30/2005 12:17:16 PM PST by LoneRangerMassachusetts (Some say what's good for others, the others make the goods; it's the meddlers against the peddlers)
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To: Lx
The communists could not maintain control over Russia, neither can we via friendly trade.

Let them implode, deal with the fallout later.

It is not like we are actually being proactive today, that will come after we see a couple or so of our cities nuked.

We are living in a paralyzed nation, we will be lucky to pull off the invasion of a third world country without being politically forced into another Vietnam type defeat.

We can not even deal with Iraq, Russia is out of the question.
32 posted on 10/30/2005 12:20:27 PM PST by mmercier
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To: starfish923

Frankly, I have no problem with Putin.

He is for Russia. He is for not letting the oligarchs steal the wealth of his country. He is for restoring the dignity of a nation that is reduced to being the prime supplier of cheap white female flesh. Yelstin era democracy failed and failed miserably. Russia needs a period of authoritarianism to get itself together.

There is a natural bent to authoritarianism in the Russian historical narrative. I remember Stalin's 1930 speech in which he described Russian history as a long, long list of beatings she suffered for her backwardness. In the Russian national memory is the tale of the terrible defeat by the Mongols at the battle of the Khalka, a defeat that doomed Kievan Russia, a defeat suffered because the Russian side did not have a single strong leader capable of imposing unity of command upon the proud, quarrelsome boyars. Kievan Rus did not have a Czar.


33 posted on 10/30/2005 12:22:12 PM PST by Sam the Sham (A conservative party tough on illegal immigration could carry California in 2008)
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To: Dundee
We are witnessing a remarkable event: the death of a great nation not through war or devastation but through its inability to rouse itself from its own suicidal tendencies.

Socialism has to be outlawed. It leads to this suicidal tendency wherever it raises its ugly head. We see it right here in America. Democrats (our socialists) won't fight islamicists either.

34 posted on 10/30/2005 12:26:55 PM PST by LibWhacker
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To: MikeinIraq

Our Russian roommate says the the birthrate of Russia is beginning to grow by tiny fractions. At the hospital where she worked the number rises by 10 or 15 births on average above the previous years average.

Another thing that's going on seemingly unnoticed is a migration out of the cities. Along with the migration to the country there has been a resurgence of birthing by midwife and those children often go uncounted for a few years.


35 posted on 10/30/2005 12:46:31 PM PST by cripplecreek (Never a minigun handy when you need one.)
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To: Dundee

While I agree with Steyn that Russia is the modern day "Sick Man of Europe", I wouldn't write them off so quickly. Napoleon and Hitler found that out the hard way, and I think the Islamofascists in Iran will find out soon enough, that you can never conquer that much territory and hold it against a determined foe, and Russians are very determined when you mess with their turf.

Anybody who thinks they'll just up and give up their home turf(not counting the SSR's ending in "stan") need only look at how long they've been fighting the Chechnyans. It's not a great example of how to run a counter-insurgency campaign, but it demonstrates that they can, and will fight if aroused. And nobody will convince me that some of those SS-20's are whatever don't still work....


36 posted on 10/30/2005 12:47:07 PM PST by ABG(anybody but Gore) (This tagline is under remodeling, thank you for your patience...)
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To: Mount Athos
I just watched a show on National Geographic about Russian women who marry American men and move to America.The women who were interviewed had nothing good to say about Russian men.The Russian men were called drunks,mamma's boys and bums who weren't looking for a wife but someone to take the place of their mother.I was surprised at the number of women who were willing to leave everything behind to marry an American who was usually twenty to twenty five years older than her.
37 posted on 10/30/2005 12:48:27 PM PST by rdcorso (There Is No Such Thing As A Neutral Person During A War With Radical Islam.)
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To: rdcorso
I just watched a show on National Geographic about Russian women who marry American men and move to America.The women who were interviewed had nothing good to say about Russian men.The Russian men were called drunks,mamma's boys and bums who weren't looking for a wife but someone to take the place of their mother.I was surprised at the number of women who were willing to leave everything behind to marry an American who was usually twenty to twenty five years older than her.

I actually met one of these Russian mail-order brides "in waiting" working at a bar in New Orleans a few years ago. Stunningly beautiful. My frat brother tried desperately to get her phone number, but she ignored him because I had a few extra bucks of cash on hand and know a few Russian words. She was hitting on me till we left the place. I realize it's hard for those girls, but what she did was bordering on being what some harlot does in a bordello...

38 posted on 10/30/2005 12:57:17 PM PST by ABG(anybody but Gore) (This tagline is under remodeling, thank you for your patience...)
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To: MikeinIraq
"grow out of the filth that was communism"

I tend to agree. I love Steyn and he is right that many things in Russia are bad and getting worse. But things are simultaneously getting better in other areas. Obviously many Russkies are still in shock over the death of communism and there appears to be a tremendous loss of confidence in their country. But that trend might change as the country gets richer and continues to interact with the western countries. I agree, don't count out Russia yet.

39 posted on 10/30/2005 1:11:33 PM PST by driftless ( For life-long happiness, learn how to play the accordion.)
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To: Dundee

V.Putin was a full Colonel of the KGB he was stationed in East Germany running spies against the west. This man is no fool & those who think that he is looking out for anything but what he percieves to be in his own interests are fools of the earth shaking variety .


40 posted on 10/30/2005 1:23:21 PM PST by Nebr FAL owner (.308 reach out & thump someone .50 cal.Browning Machine gun reach out & crush someone)
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To: cripplecreek
Our Russian roommate says the the birthrate of Russia is beginning to grow by tiny fractions. At the hospital where she worked the number rises by 10 or 15 births on average above the previous years average.

My wife was a child psychologist in Volgograd where we have a second home. The Russian economy is improving by leaps and bounds, and the people have more income, and she says she has never seen so many pregnant women in her life there as now. Indeed, many of our Russian friends are pregnant, have had babies recently, or are trying to have children. Things are very improved.
41 posted on 10/30/2005 1:30:42 PM PST by GarySpFc (Sneakypete, De Oppresso Liber)
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To: staytrue

If women in the US weren't abortion their babies, we'd have a good stable population without mass immigration. Without immigration we'd be losing population because of abortion. This is not good.


42 posted on 10/30/2005 1:49:27 PM PST by little jeremiah
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To: little jeremiah

Correction - if women in the US weren't ABORTING their babies.

Must proofread.


43 posted on 10/30/2005 1:50:59 PM PST by little jeremiah
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To: cynicom

There is no easily recoverable oil in Siberia.


44 posted on 10/30/2005 1:51:59 PM PST by staytrue
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To: staytrue

Lots of land...Russia admits they already have a large illegal group of Chinese in Siberia.


45 posted on 10/30/2005 1:54:59 PM PST by cynicom
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To: Dundee
The new US President had his first meeting with the Russian President. "I looked the man in the eye and found him very straightforward and trustworthy," George W. Bush said after two hours with Vladimir Putin. "I was able to get a sense of his soul." I'm all for speaking softly and carrying a big stick, but that's way too soft.

Who the hell does Bush mis-evaluate more our foreign enemies or the democrats
46 posted on 10/30/2005 1:57:02 PM PST by uncbob
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To: staytrue

"Everyone likes to bash immigration to the US. But immigration means GDP growth."


Illegal or not, the immigrants here work very hard. That is why they came to the U.S. Directly or indirectly they bolster the nation's economy.

I can't say the same for those who come to Europe, where they can live off the Socialist system. That France is virtually supporting these terrorists infuriates me (and a number of French people, as well).

This is just my opinion -- and I'm not an expert in either economics or international affairs. But when I see Europe, I see a very depressive environment.


47 posted on 10/30/2005 2:04:21 PM PST by MoochPooch (A righteous person worries about his or her behavior, an extremist about everyone else's.)
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To: lawgirl
That's the danger for America: that most of what Russia has to trade is likely to be damaging to US interests. In its death throes, it could bequeath the world several new Muslim nations, a nuclear Middle East and a stronger China.

____________________________

I disagree with Mark Steyn totally. He could have said the same thing about any European country. Anyway, I see 50% of women today are pleasure seeking, men hating, sel-fish bisexual lesbians with another 25% today just wait for the artificial womb. Leaving 25% traditional couples having 1 to 4 kids at the most.

(3rd world and 1st world women over 40 not included.)

Future Home Depot and Wal*Mart stores will sell Super State run IFRD ready, DNA programmed, cradle to grave designer fetus factories babies to all sexual "need-a-baby" couples.

Can't wait for the movie..."The End of Pregnancy"

____________________________

About a stronger China, well Bill Clinton gave them the BOMB and Rocket technology for campaign contributions and U.S. Corporation favors.

____________________________

The crazy Muslims are encircled with US Military Bases and could be destroyed at any time.


Take a look.

I guess were out of Saudi today but Syria and Iran are soooooooo close to being attacked from within and without.

48 posted on 10/30/2005 2:22:11 PM PST by Major_Risktaker
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To: Major_Risktaker
neat map, but I gotta wonder about this site you're linking to...
49 posted on 10/30/2005 2:42:29 PM PST by Third Order
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To: Third Order

I like the map if true it's good info. Google image is great but the site I didn't look at.


50 posted on 10/30/2005 2:53:57 PM PST by Major_Risktaker
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