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Pastor electrocuted during baptism [Texas]
Sydney Morning Herald ^ | October 31, 2005 | AP

Posted on 10/30/2005 5:51:37 PM PST by aculeus

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To: Revolting cat!

Posting "condolences for the family, to me just means a sign of respect and that someone cares.


101 posted on 10/30/2005 7:32:29 PM PST by CindyDawg
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To: HiTech RedNeck
Or vice versa, if the metal object was electrified from leakage.

Uh, I had Electricity 101 but I can't read your mind. Please explain.

102 posted on 10/30/2005 7:32:31 PM PST by WildTurkey (True Creationism makes intelligent design actually seem intelligent)
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To: RebaJ

ping


103 posted on 10/30/2005 7:34:02 PM PST by CindyDawg
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To: savedbygrace

I read somewhere, decades ago that the smallest voltage for which an accidental electrocution has been encountered, is somewhere around 24 volts. If the mike was fed with a 48 volt source having sufficient current capability, and maybe water dribbling off the man's hand trickled down to touch such an energized conductor, that could lead to a heart stopping zap.


104 posted on 10/30/2005 7:34:07 PM PST by HiTech RedNeck (No wonder the Southern Baptist Church threw Greer out: Only one god per church! [Ann Coulter])
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To: savedbygrace
The only power going to a microphone should be +48V DC, referred to as phantom power. Would that kill someone?

It is very possible that the 120vac got onto the mike, but yes, 48vdc can kill under the right circumstances. OTOH, one can hold onto 120vac and not be hurt if one is careful.

105 posted on 10/30/2005 7:35:30 PM PST by WildTurkey (True Creationism makes intelligent design actually seem intelligent)
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To: Candor7
Perhaps foul play may not have been ruled out yet.

Foul play? More like demonic possession. Satan did not want this woman baptized!

106 posted on 10/30/2005 7:35:47 PM PST by Between the Lines (Be careful how you live your life, it may be the only gospel anyone reads.)
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To: Between the Lines

There isn't any supernatural component to Maxwell's equations.


107 posted on 10/30/2005 7:37:23 PM PST by HiTech RedNeck (No wonder the Southern Baptist Church threw Greer out: Only one god per church! [Ann Coulter])
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To: aculeus
Inquiring minds want to know: What do these preachers wear during such ceremonies? Wet suits, swim trunks or the ever popular bikinis for men?


108 posted on 10/30/2005 7:40:02 PM PST by Revolting cat! ("In the end, nothing explains anything.")
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To: LibertarianInExile
I had a relative who dropped dead suddenly and unexpectedly, while feeling fine, in mid-sentence, talking on the phone (berry aneurysm). Now she knew how to check out.
109 posted on 10/30/2005 7:40:43 PM PST by Savage Beast (The internet is the newspaper of record.)
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To: DJ Taylor
I would even go so far as to bet that the electrical system in this church was designed with Ground Fault Interrupters (GFI) to handle this type of use.

As a live sound engineer, I thought I should try to clear a few things up. First of all, a microphone is typically wired directly to the input of a mixing console, via a snake (bundled microphone cables) or in-wall microphone cables. The microphone goes to the console, not to a wall outlet. The current that electrocuted the pastor was almost certainly 48-volt "phantom power". Phantom power is sent from the mixing console to power certain types of microphones (condensers). This is typically switchable on mixers - you can turn phantom power on or off. Most handheld vocal microphones are "dynamic" microphones and do not have any need for phantom power. But most low- and mid-cost mixers only allow switching of phantom power "globally" - meaning for all channels (microphones) at the same time, rather than the more expensive option of switching "per channel". So if -any- of the church's microphones require phantom power, it would have been turned on, and likely turned on to -all- microphones. Normally this is not a problem, as dynamic microphones simply ignore the phantom power. It can, however, be a danger in certain situations.

For example, if the sound system had a 60 hertz "ground loop" hum problem, one (unsafe) solution is to put "ground lift" devices on power cables at the wall outlet. These are the little grey plugs which take a three-prong (grounded) plug and turn it into a two-prong (ungrounded) plug. It sometimes fixes a hum problem, but it removes the chassis (safety) ground from the equipment to which it is attached. Combine a missing ground, 48V phantom power, and a pastor holding a microphone while standing in water, and you can end up with a problem.

110 posted on 10/30/2005 7:43:13 PM PST by xjcsa (The Kyoto Protocol is about as futile as sending seven maids with seven mops to rid a beach of sand)
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To: xjcsa
So if -any- of the church's microphones require phantom power, it would have been turned on, and likely turned on to -all- microphones.

Or someone just randomly had the switch turned to that setting - if as you say it's harmless to mikes that don't need the power.

If the ground of the system actually wasn't connected to ground at all as you suggest possible, whence would the current loop be completed?

111 posted on 10/30/2005 7:48:42 PM PST by HiTech RedNeck (No wonder the Southern Baptist Church threw Greer out: Only one god per church! [Ann Coulter])
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To: Revolting cat!

Mine wears ordinary washable pants.


112 posted on 10/30/2005 7:49:40 PM PST by HiTech RedNeck (No wonder the Southern Baptist Church threw Greer out: Only one god per church! [Ann Coulter])
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To: HiTech RedNeck
'Course, if the preacher were female, you'd hope she was wearing a wet T-shirt.


113 posted on 10/30/2005 7:51:50 PM PST by Revolting cat! ("In the end, nothing explains anything.")
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To: HiTech RedNeck

Well , a lot of them will probably be wearing waders now.


114 posted on 10/30/2005 7:51:57 PM PST by CindyDawg
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To: savedbygrace; The Electrician; wirestripper; wireman
48 volts dc is standard telephone voltage, 90 volts AC gets you a ring. Most muni's around the country require a licensed electrician for anything overy 50 volts. What does this mean? It is normally the point people start taking power into serious consideration. Still, lot's of people think they are experts at things they know nothing about.

Now this is where it gets scary, and you have to have to have gut instinct as to the proper selection of contractors to hire...where it's not about money but credibility. Most trained electrician's are competent and credible, unfortunately we have a few that make lawyer jokes look like jokes about saints.

My gut feeling tells me there is a lot more here going on than meets the eye, but to be fair, I'd have to be part of the investigating team. My bet is that either it was wired wrong from the "last improvement" or was never rigth in the first place. Second place I'd be considering is the grounding. Just some educated guesses without being there.
115 posted on 10/30/2005 7:52:15 PM PST by Issaquahking (Americans defending the homeland....a job an illegal alien will NEVER do....)
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To: HiTech RedNeck
Or someone just randomly had the switch turned to that setting - if as you say it's harmless to mikes that don't need the power.

If the ground of the system actually wasn't connected to ground at all as you suggest possible, whence would the current loop be completed?

I'm no electrician, just a sound guy, but I'll give it a crack...

I -think- that if the mixer's ground is properly connected, that safety ground also protects the microphone. Like a power cord, a microphone cord contains three conductors, and they are hot, neutral, and ground. So normally the unused phantom power returns to the mixer via the ground wire, and this would be a shorter path to ground than through a person. If this path is removed, it's looking for a path to ground, and a person holding the microphone and standing in water, complete with metal drains and/or lights, heaters, etc., may become the shortest path to ground.

As for having phantom power on without needing it, that is entirely possible. If they run a "contemporary" service (full band), though, it is likely that they are using at least one or two condenser microphones that require phantom power.

116 posted on 10/30/2005 7:55:55 PM PST by xjcsa (The Kyoto Protocol is about as futile as sending seven maids with seven mops to rid a beach of sand)
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To: theDentist

This young pastor was performing a most sacred act, that which even Jesus did to please his father, baptism.

For you to invoke the trite Darwin nominee phrase is beyond the pale.

God will not be mocked. I, for your sake, hope that you will reflect upon your post.


117 posted on 10/30/2005 8:01:40 PM PST by Hilltop
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To: netmilsmom
Love your tagline! "To Serve Man" right?

Great catch. Have we ever done a Twilight Zone thread here? That guy was so far ahead of his time, it's incredible.

118 posted on 10/30/2005 8:06:29 PM PST by lawnguy (It works Napoleon, you don't even know.)
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To: LibertarianInExile; All
It is threads like this -- and comments like yours -- that make me really proud to be a FReeper...

...</SARCASM>...

To make sure my meaning is perfectly clear, highlight the above line (between the ... ...s)

119 posted on 10/30/2005 8:13:10 PM PST by TXnMA (Iraq & Afghanistan: Bush's "Bug-Zappers"...)
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To: Revolting cat!

Some wear hip waders like duck hunters use.


120 posted on 10/30/2005 8:19:59 PM PST by PAR35
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To: xjcsa

While looking for their web site, I did see a listing for the church which showed it with a contemporary service.


121 posted on 10/30/2005 8:21:43 PM PST by PAR35
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To: Hilltop
This young pastor was performing a most sacred act, that which even Jesus did to please his father, baptism.

You are absolutely right; he was performing a sacred right...

...not giving a performance.

Lose the microphone, and speak up; either the crowd will, in their solemn silence, hear; if not, then they also mistake it for a social event.

What is next, spot lights? Stage lighting?

No, God does not appreciate being mocked.

122 posted on 10/30/2005 8:23:18 PM PST by ApplegateRanch (Mohamophages of the world, unite!)
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To: aculeus
Curious. I googled this and found no local source for this story from Waco. The only links that came up were to the AP wire story, identical to the posted article.

There really is a University Baptist Church in Waco and there are many references to Kyle Lake being a pastor there. One of the most interesting is a 1998 article about "post-modern fundamentalists" in the uber-left propaganda rag Mother Jones. It has this to say about Pastor Lake:

In Waco, after Seay's sermon, Kyle Lake, a University Baptist pastor, leads an orientation meeting for prospective new members. He talks about how during the Enlightenment, God was held suspect because he was invisible, then continues on to discuss Descartes, science and reason, and the failings of "progress." "Mankind," he concludes, "has gone to hell."

Kyle Lake was apparently the author of several books, btw, including Understanding Prayer: A fresh approach to conversation with God.

123 posted on 10/30/2005 8:25:25 PM PST by atomic conspiracy (British by birth and bloodline; American by choice and bloodshed.)
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To: aculeus

There's no microphone near my church's baptismal font.


124 posted on 10/30/2005 8:26:50 PM PST by Ciexyz (Let us always remember, the Lord is in control.)
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To: TXnMA
Gosh, I'm glad for you! I think I'll have to remember that you're out there reading next time I'm about to post.

"A Republican will tell you that you shouldn't make fun of disabled people, and he's right. A Democrat will tell you that you can't make fun of disabled people - which is untrue, as anyone who's ever heard the joke about Helen Keller falling down a well and breaking three fingers calling for help will tell you." - P.J. O'Rourke

I really care what you have to say, you know?

That was sarcasm, too, you humorless tightass.

125 posted on 10/30/2005 8:31:50 PM PST by LibertarianInExile (Miers did the right thing. Now the President can, by appointing Alex Kozinski, 9th Circuit COA.)
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To: Issaquahking
Just spotted this ping. I have heard of this (what happened in the church) many times, but there is no one possible cause, there are a few.

48vdc is enough with the proper loop to stop a heart. It requires somewhere in excess of 20ma (milliampere) of current flow. So mic power on the older systems can do it. The newer ones use less juice, or powered mics.

The tank or pool would have been grounded through the plumbing or any device.

There is a second and more probable cause, and that is the tank heater. They frequently warm the water with a submersible warmer that is usually 220VAC. If is was still in place and in the tank, he would have grounded himself though the Mic which is attached to the amp chassis ground if it had metal parts in the handle. If the heating element was shorted, or miswired, he would have received a 120VAC shock directly through his chest, and if the mic was in the left hand, his heart would have been directly in the path. The left hand would be worse than the right, but both could kill.

The second situation is more likely than the first, but I don't know how old the PA was, or what sort of mic was used,. (electret condenser, or cartoid) are but two types and the voltages vary widely.
126 posted on 10/30/2005 8:31:57 PM PST by Cold Heat
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I don't see why so many people find the death of a good Christian to be something worth joking about.


127 posted on 10/30/2005 8:32:31 PM PST by SmoothTalker
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To: ApplegateRanch

how is using a microphone mocking God?


128 posted on 10/30/2005 8:33:28 PM PST by InvisibleChurch (The search for someone to blame is always successful. - Robert Half)
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To: Drago

Post 33 - most informative link on musician electrical safety.


129 posted on 10/30/2005 8:40:23 PM PST by Ciexyz (Let us always remember, the Lord is in control.)
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To: aculeus

This is so tragic. The article said over 800 people in attendance. I'm sure many would have been children. I see nothing "funny" in this at all.


130 posted on 10/30/2005 8:46:14 PM PST by Jessarah
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To: InvisibleChurch
It is not the microphone, per se; it is the treating it as a performance, with an audience.

Ministers, pre electric, preached entire services to much larger crowds, who had no trouble hearing BECAUSE THEY LISTENED. Proper acoustics also helped.

I've seen too many services that were way too much "show" and not enough "tell".

Just a bit of the old Puritan and Huguenot ancestry showing through, maybe.
131 posted on 10/30/2005 8:46:19 PM PST by ApplegateRanch (Mohamophages of the world, unite!)
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To: Billthedrill
"Can I get uh witnessssszzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzaaaaaaappppppp."
132 posted on 10/30/2005 9:50:45 PM PST by TheErnFormerlyKnownAsBig (It's easier to save others than it is to save yourself.)
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To: Ciexyz
There's no microphone near my church's baptismal font.

But your pastor doesn't get in the water, does he (or she)? As I recall you are PCUSA, and dunking, while permitted, is exceedingly rare in most Presbyterian churches. Does the preacher use a wireless mike?

Most churches I've seen with a baptismal pool have either had the mike aimed in from the front or dropped from above. That being said, neither arrangement should require the preacher to adjust it. If the signal isn't loud enough, the sound guy should be able to provide sufficient boost.

133 posted on 10/30/2005 10:11:19 PM PST by PAR35
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To: ApplegateRanch
Lose the microphone

How big is the room where your services are held? Does your preacher do 3 back to back services (with sermons in excess of 30 minutes). Can he yell loud enough to be heard in an overflow room or two on another floor?

And it's clear that your church doesn't have a tape ministry, or web streaming. Either of those would require a microphone. What is next, spot lights? Stage lighting?

It can help with the quality of the video feed to the overflow room, but I agree with modern equipment, it is not entirely necessary.

134 posted on 10/30/2005 10:21:39 PM PST by PAR35
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To: PAR35
You misapprehend on two counts.

1. I was speaking specifically of the Baptism.

2. I also mentioned services in pre-electronic times.

Modern church services are another matter entirely.

My church does have a tape ministry, televised rebroadcast of services, and Internet streaming, both video or audio-only.

I'm not sure if it adds or detracts from the services; probably depends on age and background. MTV generation probably likes and expects it; my grandmother would have been scandalized; it is obvious I'm ambivalent.

I might add that, in a church, I prefer acoustic instruments to amplified; pipe organs over electronic; candles to controlled electric lighting...but a good preacher trumps any and all of those.
135 posted on 10/31/2005 12:10:59 AM PST by ApplegateRanch (Mohamophages of the world, unite!)
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To: WildTurkey
But I never did get my question answered on the last one!

Neither did the pastor.

I have to wonder though, who is now more worried about the future, the pastor's flock, or the person being baptized at the moment of the event?

136 posted on 10/31/2005 12:19:36 AM PST by Cvengr (<;^))
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To: ApplegateRanch

Oh spit. Having a disaster occur at a baptism does not equate to divine displeasure. Someone could give a baptism in the ocean and find the event visited by a man eating shark or lose the celebrant to a rip tide; does that mean God frowned upon that baptism?

I got dunked under similar circumstances. I stepped up to the mike (a larger church lent our little church the use of the baptismal) and gave my testimony of conversion then the pastor said on mike "I now baptize you in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit; Amen." (Sploosh!) If this was show biz, it was DULL show biz. But it along with the others who joined at that occasion was inspiring in a different sense to those who heard.


137 posted on 10/31/2005 12:28:02 AM PST by The Red Zone (Florida, the sun-shame state, and Illinois the chicken injun.)
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To: xjcsa

0.1 amps is all it takes to have a fatal electric accident. The current flowing through the body at 0.1 amps is generally more of concern than the voltage, although if provided sufficient voltage differential, the current maybe implied.


138 posted on 10/31/2005 12:28:25 AM PST by Cvengr (<;^))
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To: ApplegateRanch

FWIW, we are condemned before we are saved. If the person being baptized, wasn;t to be saved, it's not the physical baptism, but the regeneration of the spirit or baptism by the Holy SPirit that results in salvation. That's for God to discern anyway.

Every sin committed has already been paid for on the Cross. Those who continue to rebel in sin might suffer the sin unto death if they reject his discipline and are simply good for nothingness if they remain by His plan, but most probably this was a simple blunder resulting in manslaughter.


139 posted on 10/31/2005 12:34:58 AM PST by Cvengr (<;^))
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To: Cvengr

Of course we know that sin has resulted in death and suffering in the world that doesn't care whether the person who dies or suffers was saved or not. An equally possible scenario from our point of view is that, a la Job, Satan asked God for permission to wreak this disaster and for inscrutable reasons God said yes.


140 posted on 10/31/2005 12:42:19 AM PST by The Red Zone (Florida, the sun-shame state, and Illinois the chicken injun.)
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To: 52d Troop Command
Sounds like good nominee for the Darwin Award.

Not really. Darwin Award nominees have to have done something really stupid to initiate their death or as they say "by eliminating themselves in an extraordinarily idiotic manner." This was just a case of an ordinary accident. People get electrocuted all the time, often from things like hairdryers falling into the bathtub with them or touching a overhead power line with a metal ladder. Same here. Accidently touching a powered microphone while standing in water is not "extraordinarily idiotic."

This, on the other hand is a typical example of "extraordinarily idiotic."

Failed Frame-Up

141 posted on 10/31/2005 12:57:08 AM PST by FreedomCalls (It's the "Statue of Liberty," not the "Statue of Security.")
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To: Savage Beast
I had a relative who dropped dead suddenly and unexpectedly, while feeling fine, in mid-sentence, talking on the phone (berry aneurysm). Now she knew how to check out.

I have to agree. That is a good way to go.

142 posted on 10/31/2005 3:30:47 AM PST by SIDENET ("IT'S A COOKBOOK!!!")
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To: GnuHere
Standing in a pool and grabbing a live microphone makes him a Darwin nominee, no matter how many children he had, Gnu.

Deal with it.

143 posted on 10/31/2005 5:19:59 AM PST by theDentist (The Dems have put all their eggs in one basket-case: Howard "Belltower" Dean.)
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To: Hilltop

This young pastor grabbed an electric implement (microphone) while standing in water. That is stupid, and makes him a nominee. Deal with it.


144 posted on 10/31/2005 5:25:35 AM PST by theDentist (The Dems have put all their eggs in one basket-case: Howard "Belltower" Dean.)
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To: SIDENET
I've got the Dream Life!

I wish everybody lived in such abundance as I do--abundance in all things from love to children to a fabulous, brilliant, loving wife who's nuts about me and even plays the piano to gorgeous surroundings to education to a keen mind to...well everything. (It hasn't always been so. I'm a self-made man, and I've endured some bad things.)

But I'm ready to go on to the next life any time.

God has constantly been with me (as He is with all of us, all the time, though some don't know it and some are in denial about it), even when I was a child, even when I was a suicidal teenager (my knowledge of His presence kept me from doing it), even...always...and I was always lucky enough to be aware of it.

When the time's right, I'll just slip right into the next dimension...and for those who love me, it'll be a time to feel good and be happy.

(I would hate to have to go through some painful ordeal though. To paraphrase Groucho Marx: I've felt great, and I've felt awful, and great is better.)

145 posted on 10/31/2005 6:21:27 AM PST by Savage Beast (The internet is the newspaper of record.)
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To: theDentist

To follow your specious statement, Jesus left heaven knowing he would be reviled, spat upon, mocked, scourged and nailed to a cross to die an agonying death.

In your mind, that would be another Darwin nominee move.

I'm glad you sir did not create the universe.

I have nothing to deal with, certainly not your obsequious remark, your impertinent nature, or your stench of judgemental arrogance with nothing of consequence to gird your statement.

As a "dentist", perhaps you are accustomed only to people opening their mouths, when they should be shut.

If you don't like it, deal with it.


146 posted on 10/31/2005 6:40:50 AM PST by Hilltop
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To: ApplegateRanch
1. I was speaking specifically of the Baptism.

In that case, I might disagree with you, but I'll withdraw the other comments. As you could tell, I did not understand the limited nature of your comment when I responded.

In our church, the microphone is needed because the whole congregation participates in the baptism. They have to be able to hear the question asked of them so that they can respond at the appropriate time.

I can understand why that would not be needed in churches where the congregation has only a passive role.

As for the rest of your comments in this post, I fully agree. Nothing gets you in a reverent mood like a good German style pipe organ.

147 posted on 10/31/2005 9:29:56 AM PST by PAR35
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To: Vigilanteman

Here's the story behind the headline if you are interested. My sister-in-law's family new this family well.

She emailed the following:

I found out yesterday that a family friend had passed away on Sunday and I just wanted to ask you to be praying for his family. He was a pastor for 9 years at First Baptist Church in Waco and had a young wife, twin 3-yr old boys, and a 5 year old daugther. It was Baylor's homecoming and a former student and member of the church had asked him to baptize her. His wireless mic was acting up, so he grabbed a hand-held mic and was electricuted. He was taken to the hospital and died there. When my family went to First Baptist in Tyler he was a friend of my sister and she had many Bible studies over at his parent's house and his parents were friends with my parents. I haven't seen him probably in about 9 years, but it's just weird when things like this happen. My heart breaks for his family. His wife's name is Jennifer. His parents are David and Shirley Lake and he has 2 brothers, Jonah and Jody, and a sister, Kristi. They are all at a ranch in Waco that his parents own now and that they frequently visit all together. Also pray for that congregation. It's hard to find reason in all of it and it's truly a freaky circumstance but the Lord is in control.


148 posted on 10/31/2005 11:54:16 AM PST by The Optimist
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To: SamAdams76
I do want to go on record that if I ever was to die a tragic death, I give full permission for others here to make puns about me, nominate me for the Darwin award and come up with other witticisms that might apply to the circumstances my sudden demise. I would expect nothing less!

All of us are going to go sooner or later. I'd rather go out with a whimper than with a bang, but I don't think I have much choice in the matter.


I expect the Darwin comments, jokes, etc., in case I die a rather interesting death.

In fact, I'm hoping that my death will leave any witnesses telling the authorities or a reporter, something along the lines of "well, there was a lawnmower, a small homemade jet engine, a ramp, a soccer goal, a lot of foam padding, a hula skirt, a long rope, and a pair of snow skies. I'm still not sure what happened, but I'll remember his last words: "here, hold my beer"".

I'm not mocking the Pastor either - it's just there are some things you don't fool around with.
149 posted on 10/31/2005 12:04:28 PM PST by af_vet_rr
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To: aculeus
"It's the only way you can be loud enough."

There was a time when a powerful voice was required in this line of work.

150 posted on 10/31/2005 12:09:40 PM PST by RightWhale (Repeal the law of the excluded middle)
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