Pistol-packers challenge police (NH)

The Union Leader (NH) ^ | October 30, 2005 | ROGER TALBOT

[neverdem]

Police took Michael V. Pelletier’s loaded pistol while he browsed in a bookstore; David K. Ridley’s mistake was to change jackets in a mall parking lot, and Penny S. Dean’s encounter happened during a late-night constitutional on a city street.

Because the New Hampshire Constitution guarantees the right to bear arms — no license needed, unless the weapon is concealed — all three got their guns back within minutes, but the confrontations caused them unease.

“The bottom line is that this type of thing shouldn’t be happening in a state where (carrying a pistol) is perfectly allowed,” said Dean, a lawyer and consulting counsel to Gun Owners of New Hampshire, the gun-rights advocacy organization.

Dean, in a routine followed often in the 10 years she has lived on Warren Street in Concord, was taking a late-night walk on June 16. She was on Pleasant Street out by St. Paul School when state trooper Abbott Presby stopped his cruiser.

“He must have asked me six times for a driver’s license. Then he proceeded to ask what I was doing there and I kept asking him, ‘Are you detaining me?’” Dean said.

She didn’t have her driver’s license. She had a cellular phone, a credit card, her license to carry a concealed pistol and her Glock 23 in a nylon, neon-pink fanny pack.

Dean wrote a letter to state police Col. Frederick H. Booth citing her constitutional rights and complaining of her “detention” by Presby.

“Had I not vigorously, repeatedly and firmly asserted that I wanted to (be) released from this detention I could have been illegally held there indefinitely. I firmly believe that it was only after I explained to trooper Presby that I was an attorney that the impetus to release me awakened,” Dean wrote.

Three months later, state police Lt. Mark J. Myrdek responded, writing that a review of the incident had found Presby’s “actions and conduct were justified, lawful and proper.”

On March 27, 2004, at about 9:15 p.m., three police officers in uniform and two detectives in plain clothes converged on Michael Pelletier as he thumbed through a book at Barnes & Noble store in Manchester. Pelletier and his wife had marked their 11th anniversary with dinner, then gone to the bookstore, where his coat stayed in the car. He had forgotten the change in attire left visible the holstered Glock 30 pistol tucked into his belt at his back.

A shopper telephoned police.

Pelletier said the officers “basically grabbed me by the shoulder, disarmed me and took me out of the store. They ran my license and registration and the serial number on the gun and stood around lecturing me for 20 minutes. It was irritating, but at least I wasn’t arrested.

“What boggled my mind was that out of at least seven officers and dispatchers involved not one seemed to know that open carry is legal in New Hampshire and they basically treated this like they would a felony stop. . . . I wasn’t doing anything illegal. I was minding my own business and I think they could muster the ability to treat me with courtesy and respect in that situation,” said Pelletier, who lives in Merrimack and is a West Coast transplant drawn here by the Free State Project’s pick of New Hampshire in 2003 as the place to promote its minimal-government agenda.

Alan M. Rice of Brookline, the treasurer of the New Hampshire Firearms Coalition, has been dealing with gun use safety for 10 years. He is certified as an “instructor-trainer,” qualified to teach even the firearms instructors.

Commenting on what Pelletier has written on the Internet about his bookstore experience, Rice said, “I think he exercised extraordinarily poor judgment on that particular night (because) he had an open-top holster in the small of his back in an unconcealed fashion. . . .

“Most professionals do not carry a gun there because it’s hard to access the weapon and hard to retain the weapon if someone wants to take it away from you.”

Rice prefers holsters with retention features that thwart efforts to extract the handgun, and he advises students to place the belt holster at their right or left side, where it is protected by the arm.

As a firearms instructor, Rice views concealed-carry as “a good way to deter crime because they don’t know who is carrying.”

Though it is legal to carry a gun in plain view, “open-carry is not a bright idea,” Rice said. “You are a target. If someone comes in with criminal intent, the first thing he is going to do is neutralize any person with a weapon who can hurt him.”

Like Pelletier, David Ridley’s move to New Hampshire was inspired by the Free State Project. He came from Texas, which he described as having restrictive gun licensing laws.

“When you come to a place where the right is recognized by government and you’ve never had it before, it’s a right you want to celebrate. At the same time, if you don’t exercise the right, I think you will eventually lose it. So for me, open-carry is primarily a political thing,” said Ridley, who lives in Keene.

Ridley had changed jackets and was engrossed in lettering a placard on the hood of his car in a supermarket parking lot in Salem on March 21 when five police officers, responding to a citizen’s call, asked about the holstered Glock 19 on his hip.

“They said, ‘You alarmed a person who saw the gun.’

“When that is the situation, they have to respond to the call. I understand that, but what was wrong was when they started talking about arresting me when I hadn’t done anything illegal,” Ridley said.

In responding to a letter from Ridley, Salem Police Chief Paul T. Donovan wrote that his officers would continue to respond “with an open mind” when a complaint comes in about someone carrying a firearm.

“In this day and age where people have committed some very violent attacks using firearms, it is understandable that people who do not understand the values of law-abiding firearms owners run scared. We need to work at improving our image with those who don’t understand,” Donovan wrote.

[neverdem]

Porcuping!

[2banana]

She didn’t have her driver’s license. She had a cellular phone, a credit card, her license to carry a concealed pistol and her Glock 23 in a nylon, neon-pink fanny pack.

Later, however, the fashion police cited her for a violation...

[ExcursionGuy84]

I seriously want to discover the person who first siad that "Ignorance is Bliss"

IOW, the Officers DIDN'T KNOW the State Constitution permitted law-abiding citizens to OPENLY-carry weapons--including firearms--on their person

[mvpel]

She has hot pink business cards too, and I got her an assortment of hot pink binder clips a couple months back. It's sort of her trademark. :D

[PAR35]

If she sold Mary Kay instead of wasting her time practicing law, perhaps one day she could drive a pink Cadillac.

[Logical me]

"“In this day and age where people have committed some very violent attacks using firearms, it is understandable that people who do not understand the values of law-abiding firearms owners run scared. We need to work at improving our image with those who don’t understand,” Donovan wrote.
"

No, what's needed is police retraining in the law and taught to mind their own business. A police state is not what is needed. More fun would be if every citizens that has a handgun, sets up a day for all citizens to carry. Would drive the police nuts.

[Army Air Corps]

"He came from Texas, which he described as having restrictive gun licensing laws."

A one page background form that takes five minutes to complete and a five minute wait (if that long) for telephone confirmation is restrictive?

With all of my rifles, I completed the form, had my background verified, paid for my firearms and walked out the store with said rifles in 15 minutes.

[neverdem]

DAMN! Or should I have written "duh"?

Did the Union-Leader give you a heads up on running this story?

[theDentist]

...unless the weapon is concealed

So what is NH's legal definition of "concealed"?

[neverdem]

I don't know. I don't live there.

[MeanWestTexan]

the problem appears to be NH's location next to MA.

All the pathetic sheep-people that came across the border have completely ruined NH.

In fact, I will takes bets on the geographic origin of the citizen sleuths who called the cops.

[DHC-2]

I think some "citizens" better start getting used to seeing guns. I carry concealed, mostly because I don't want anyone to know I've got a gun. But sometimes you can "flash" a gun and not be aware of it ... wind blows back a jacket, etc. "Citizens" have got to get educated that there are a bunch of us out here actually "protecting THEM" and not call the cops every time they see a gun. At the supermarket the other day, I was reaching to a lower shelf to get something and "flashed" my 1911. A fellow nearby asked (and very quietly) a minute later ... "Do you have a permit for the gun?" I responded with "Yes sir, I do, and here it is" and I showed it to him. He simply said "thank you ... I should probably carry mine more often!"

[Eagle Eye]

Though it is legal to carry a gun in plain view, “open-carry is not a bright idea,” Rice said. “You are a target. If someone comes in with criminal intent, the first thing he is going to do is neutralize any person with a weapon who can hurt him.”

Yeah, I'm sure that most criminals look for someone carrying a gun or knife or club as their first choice for a vicitm.

[clee1]

I've had this happen to me, in GA; an open carry allowed state.

I am a reserve police office and a holder of a CCW. I went into a Kroger store without my jacket on, with a .380 in the small of my back, open holster. As I was leaving, two city PD officers made a felony stop of me, throwing me against the wall of the building. I suffered contusions and several small scrapes on the face, hands, and arms.

After IDing myself, I was released.

I promptly went to the city PD and swore out a complaint against the officers involved and threatened a civil rights lawsuit against the city, the department, and the two officers. As a result, the entire city PD had to go through retraining regarding the firearms laws of Georgia.

I make it a POINT now to carry openly when I can do so effectively.

[clee1]

See post # 15

[Redbob]

"Commenting on what Pelletier has written on the Internet about his bookstore experience, Rice said, “I think he exercised extraordinarily poor judgment on that particular night (because) he had an open-top holster in the small of his back in an unconcealed fashion. . . ."

So this alleged "firearms instructor" (not lawyer) seems to think that the law should depend on the type holster you're using?
And whether or not he personally approves of it?

[verity]

"All the pathetic sheep-people that came across the border have completely ruined NH."

And the bastards are breeding.

[Darksheare]

Okay.. something here is causing a disconnect and I'm having a hard time with it.. *cough*

" New Hampshire Constitution guarantees the right to bear arms — no license needed, unless the weapon is concealed" beginning of the article says that.

Then we get down to the bookstore bit:

"Commenting on what Pelletier has written on the Internet about his bookstore experience, Rice said, “I think he exercised extraordinarily poor judgment on that particular night (because) he had an open-top holster in the small of his back in an unconcealed fashion. . . . "

New Hampshire constitution says open carry is okay... right?
If it wasn't concealed, what is the problem?

[Redbob]

"With all of my rifles, I completed the form, had my background verified, paid for my firearms and walked out the store with said rifles in 15 minutes."

But you weren't applying for a permit to carry your rifles concealed, were you?

And normally, when someone refers to firearms "licensing," they're talking about carry permits, not purchasing, which of course does not require any form of "licensing."

Texas is in fact among the more restrictive of the "shall-issue" states, and just a few years ago , was not a "shall-issue" state at all.
Prior to the George Bush governorship, it was practically impossible to get a concealed carry permit here.
Now it is merely difficult and expensive.

[green iguana]

"He came from Texas, which he described as having restrictive gun licensing laws."

Probably referring to CCW licensing and the illegality of open carry (for handguns) in Texas.

[petro45acp]

For information on ALL state firearm laws, see:

http://www.packing.org

There is a front end disclaimer for liability issues, but this is a very well maintained site.

Top sends

[DocH]

Maybe he was speaking of the hoops a Texan has to jump through to get a CCW license, especially when compared to many states like Vermont, etc.

My Dad used to live in the Hill Country in TX, and if I remember right, it cost him upwards of $300 (not to mention the time involved) to get the GOVERNMENT-approved training and the permit.

THAT is ridiculous and uncalled for, and NOT what you would expect most anywhere in the red-state south and southwest.

[petro45acp]

"So this alleged "firearms instructor" (not lawyer) seems to think that the law should depend on the type holster you're using?
And whether or not he personally approves of it?"

Pariahs...that's what gun keepers/"bearers" have become. This fellow may be right about open carry and retention, but by the same token, that choice is up to the chooser to choose!

I would hate to think of this as a SISC (sheep in sheepdog's clothing).

Stay alert,
Top sends

[mvpel]

Did the Union-Leader give you a heads up on running this story?

Yes, actually - the idea for the story originated through myself and John Harrigan, though I didn't expect it in this past weekend's paper. Roger apparently works a lot faster than I thought.

John Harrigan writes the fishing and hunting stuff for the Union-Leader. The subject of unlicensed open carry came up in John Harrigan's column about two weeks ago, after he'd expressed Granite State pride and pleasure that openly armed hunters didn't cause the slightest stir at a general store up north.

I contacted John about some of the work that GO-NH has been doing on the issue of open carry and about my own experience in Manchester, and he suggested the idea of a feature article about open carry to Joe McQuaid, the publisher, and put me in touch with him.

Joe then assigned the story to Roger, and between myself and a few other GO-NH folks we helped put him in touch most of the other sources in the story.

[70times7]

So this alleged "firearms instructor" (not lawyer) seems to think that the law should depend on the type holster you're using? And whether or not he personally approves of it?

He didn't say that or even imply it. Why are you drawing that conclusion?

[basil]

You are correct about the expense and time involved to obtain a conceal and carry permit in TX, IMHO, people are dying because of it. Think of the poor mother living in a very bad area--where will she find the funds necessary to be able to carry a gun legally to protect herself and her children?

Also, it steams me that every person must be fingerprinted--not only the first time they get their license--but each and every time they renew--at a cost of $10. each time. What's with that--TX gun owners are known to sit around and file their fingerprints? This is ridiculous beyond words!

Also, at 10 bucks a pop times the hundreds of thousands of licensed gun owners in this state, we are talking some serious money here. Wonder where that goes.

My plan is to organize gun owners in this state when the legislature is in session again, and ask this question, and also to ask for some of the money involved in licensing to be used to build and maintain state of the art shooting ranges around the state.

What do you think of that? Would you like to help out?

[JoeFromSidney]

More fun would be if every citizens that has a handgun, sets up a day for all citizens to carry. Would drive the police nuts.

This was actually done in Ohio prior to passage of our CCW bill. The Ohio Supreme Court had ruled that open carry was protected by the Ohio Constitution, but concealed carry was not. Some activists arranged for "open carry" days in shopping malls and similar places. That helped put pressure on the Legislature to pass CCW. Now I carry concealed.

[Darksheare]

Post 19.

NH law says it is okay to carry without a license as long as it isn't concealed.
The comment by the suuposed instructor mentions that the gun was unconcealed but he mentions the holster type.

[70times7]

New Hampshire constitution says open carry is okay... right? If it wasn't concealed, what is the problem?

Mr. Rice made it quite clear why he took issue. He didn't say Pelletier had done anything illegal, only that he had exercised poor judgement. The two are not one and the same. Read it again from the article:

Commenting on what Pelletier has written on the Internet about his bookstore experience, Rice said, “I think he exercised extraordinarily poor judgment on that particular night (because) he had an open-top holster in the small of his back in an unconcealed fashion. . . .

“Most professionals do not carry a gun there because it’s hard to access the weapon and hard to retain the weapon if someone wants to take it away from you.”

Rice prefers holsters with retention features that thwart efforts to extract the handgun, and he advises students to place the belt holster at their right or left side, where it is protected by the arm.

As a firearms instructor, Rice views concealed-carry as “a good way to deter crime because they don’t know who is carrying.”

Though it is legal to carry a gun in plain view, “open-carry is not a bright idea,” Rice said. “You are a target. If someone comes in with criminal intent, the first thing he is going to do is neutralize any person with a weapon who can hurt him.”

Mr. Pelletier did nothing to earn the poor treatment he received, but that is a different issue that what Rice is saying. Seems to me the author (R. Talbot) is including marginally relevant clutter to expand the story.

[GovernmentShrinker]

“They said, ‘You alarmed a person who saw the gun.’ “When that is the situation, they have to respond to the call.

Huh? Why do they have to respond? If somebody calls and says "I saw a black man and that alarms me", do they respond to that? Unless a caller is alleging that s/he has specifically seen something which is a violation of a law, or that a reasonable person would regard as evidence of a violation of a law, I see no reason why police should respond by dispatching officers. The police should handle such calls by asking the caller questions aimed at determining relevant details: e.g. Did the gun-carrier point the gun at you or at someone else? Did the gun carrier verbally threaten to shoot someone? If the answers are "no", the police should take the opportunity to explain the law to the caller, so that the caller understands why the police won't be dispatching officers.

[Darksheare]

"He didn't say Pelletier had done anything illegal"

No, he just went on about the type of holster the guyy had.
And the gun owner was rousted contrary to NH law.
And we have been discussing this.

And you are having a cow about this exactly why then?
You seem to be upset about it being pointed out that Mr Rice made a stupid comment in contrary to NH law.

It isn't far from 'he showed poor judgement *sniffle sniffle*' statements to banning guns.
Just look at NY state.

NH law says open carry is okay.
So why did Mr Rice have an issue with the type of holster the guy had?
If he didn't have an issue with it, he wouldn't have mentioned the holster type.

[70times7]

Pelletier had a permit, so the legality of his caring the weapon, concealed or unconcealed, is not at issue. Rice is commenting on his judgment, not his (nonexistent) status as a criminal, since his actions were entirely legal. Rice also explains why he took issue with the holster type, and for the most part, I agree with him. Please see my post #30, above.

[Darksheare]

"Pelletier had a permit, so the legality of his caring the weapon, concealed or unconcealed, is not at issue."

So why is Mr Rice so hung up on the holster type and the fact that Pelletier had the gun anyway?
Open carry is legal, period.

"Rice is commenting on his judgment, not his (nonexistent) status as a criminal,"

So why is Mr Rice mentioning the holster type?
And since when is open carry being legal bad judgement?

"and for the most part, I agree with him."

Oh, I see.
Thank you kindly.

[Darksheare]

“open-carry is not a bright idea,” Rice said. “You are a target. If someone comes in with criminal intent, the first thing he is going to do is neutralize any person with a weapon who can hurt him.”


Evidently he hasn't heard of high profile deterrence.
If one person is vcerrying openly, how many are carrying concealed?

[GovernmentShrinker]

Rice is right that open carry is not a bright idea for anyone except on-duty LE, military, or security personnel. The casual open carrier is an invitation to gun theft. If your primary purpose in going somewhere is other than to provide armed security or law enforcement, then your mind is going to primarily on things other than security. As Pelletier's case illustrates, there's little difference between casual open carrying and forgot-I-was-carrying. Pelletier had been carrying concealed, and then took off his coat, and went into a store not aware that his gun was on display. If you're unaware (even momentarily, as you turn your attention to merchandise or a menu, etc.) that your gun is on display, and all the random people around you ARE aware that your gun is on display, you're asking for trouble. At least if you have it in the front of your person, you're going to notice if someone reaches for it, but open carry behind your back is just insane.

[neverdem]

Congratulations! I hope you have more good luck.

[RKV]

“open-carry is not a bright idea,” Rice said. This statement is false on its face. I agree with you about deterence. Ever been to a gun show and felt like stealing something or assaulting someone? Not me. It was clear that the folks in the room were not going to tolerate any foolishness whatsoever. How about we get used to open carry by MANY citizens?

[70times7]

Relax Darkshear, relax. If you stay worked up like this your reading comprehension levels will drop even lower. Please tell me now, who wrote the article that you (imply you have) read? It was not Rice, it was Roger Talbot. Why are you and others having a cow about Rice, when the person twisting the issue is Talbot? There is nothing unreasonable about Rice expressing his views about the way the weapon was carried. But I say again, that is a seperate issue from the pathetic, unprofessional treatment he was given by the NH police. You want to get bent out of shape, do so toward the right person. I have a hard time believing Rice, an instructor, is against the 2nd amendment. And if you just want to argue, please omit the words"out of shape".

[Eagle Eye]

And you can back up your speculation with the studies that support this?

In my experience, those that actually practice open carry usually do so on their own premises and not generally paraded on the metropolitan streets.

I'll agree that it isn't a 'bright idea' for anyone and everyone to carry openly just because they can. It shouldn't be, but it can sometimes be misconstrued as hostility in those areas unaccustomed to seeing armed civilians.

But I'll openly challenge any assertion that open carry is equivalent to wearing a "mug me" sign. I won't believe that armed people are intentionally mugged or robbed more often than unarmed.

[RKV]

"I promptly went to the city PD and swore out a complaint against the officers involved and threatened a civil rights lawsuit against the city, the department, and the two officers. As a result, the entire city PD had to go through retraining regarding the firearms laws of Georgia."

BZ

[Darksheare]

Yes, saw a gun show and was quite glaringly aware that someone doing something stupid would end up hurt.
And the atmosphere was very cordial as well.
But I do admit having a bit of a 'lust' for the long guns there instead of the pistols.

It would be nice if people carrying were much more common.

However, living in NY state as I do, that is a bit of a pipe dream here at the moment.

[GovernmentShrinker]

I think some "citizens" better start getting used to seeing guns.

So true. About three years ago I was driving on an interstate highway at dusk, when I passed what appeared at 65 mph to be a young man standing on the side of the road next to his broken down, beat up old car. As I looked in my rearview mirror, I saw no one else seemed to be pulling over to help him, so I pulled over, and backed up along the shoulder until I reached him. Mindful of the fact that people aren't always who/what they appear to be, and that I was a smallish woman alone in my car (a very unfashionable wood-sided station wagon), I pulled my trusty little KelTec P-32 out from my handbag pocket, and placed it on the passenger seat beside me -- in clear view, and within easy reach while not being threatening.

I rolled down the passenger side window a couple of inches as the fellow approached, and quickly established that he really was a 16 year old boy whose car had broken down while he was on his way to practice with some little rock band that he and some friends had put together. I rolled down the window further, and lent him my cell phone, at which point he clearly noticed the gun, and tried unsuccessfully not to look alarmed. First he called his mom, but she wasn't home and he just left a message that his car had broken down. Then he called one of his band friends, who said he'd come pick him up. The kid was clearly ready at this point to part ways with the lady-with-the-gun, but I insisted he first call his mom again, and leave a message with his precise location, and the info that he was expecting his friend to pick him up shortly. Then I went on my way.

I've always wondered what this kid said later to his mom and to his band buddies. At any rate, I know he went away with a new concept of what middle aged ladies in wood-sided station wagons may be carrying around with them. Hopefully the experience nudged him in the direction of becoming a pro-RKBA voter. At least he knows first hand that people who routinely carry guns aren't all criminals, and that some are nice ladies who stop to help when they see a teenager stranded with a broken down car.

[Darksheare]

"Relax Darkshear, relax. If you stay worked up like this your reading comprehension levels will drop even lower."

Nice attempt at an insult.
If you were truly interested in actual discussion, you wouldn't feel the need to make personal attacks.
Thanks, no further correspondence with you is necessarry.

[GovernmentShrinker]

I doubt an open carrier would get mugged, but I expect they get their guns stolen from them a lot more often than concealed carriers. "Grab and run" is the likely scenario, not "grab and stick around and try to use it".

[Shadow Deamon]

"NH law says open carry is okay. So why did Mr Rice have an issue with the type of holster the guy had? If he didn't have an issue with it, he wouldn't have mentioned the holster type."

Take a pill, man. Mr. Rice simply fell back to his training, it was poor judgement on Mr. Pelletier's(SP) part and if he thinks about it, he'll agree.

That type of holster in the small of your back is extremely difficult to maintain weapon retention. Even the article says that the police came up behind him and disarmed him.

[Darksheare]

"Take a pill, man. Mr. Rice simply fell back to his training,"

Another who has to insult while saying nothing new.
Mr. Rice has never heard of 'deterrent'.
If deterrence didn't work, whuy do we have a standing Army and Navy?
Why did we have ICBM's if deterrencec didn't work?

Mr. Rice needs to brush up on 'deterrence'.
And he needs to brush up on NH law.

[MileHi]

Cool site, thanks.

[clee1]

What is "BZ"????