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Pistol-packers challenge police (NH)
The Union Leader (NH) ^ | October 30, 2005 | ROGER TALBOT

Posted on 10/31/2005 9:43:58 AM PST by neverdem

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To: clee1

Short for "Big Z"

or "Bravo Zulu"

The Big Z is the Admiral Zumwalt award for excellence....


unless the writer is referring to "Battle Zero" on a Main Battle Rifle....


Top sends


51 posted on 10/31/2005 12:14:02 PM PST by petro45acp (SUPPORT/BE YOUR LOCAL SHEEPDOG!!!!)
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To: Darksheare
Nice attempt at an insult

No "attempt" involved.

If you were truly interested in actual discussion, you wouldn't feel the need to make personal attacks.

And if you were you would have discussed the facts. Instead you set the tone *sniffle sniffle* with implied insults based on errant conclusions about both the article and my opinions. Until my prior post I pushed the facts; you know, those things you side stepped in order avoid discussing the point? Of course, if you don't like it you can always take your keyboard and go home.

Thanks, no further correspondence with you is necessary.

Ahh, well, so you have. My gratitude is yours.

52 posted on 10/31/2005 12:17:38 PM PST by 70times7 (An open mind is a cesspool of thought)
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To: Shadow Deamon; Darksheare
Take a pill, man.

I'm guessing it would be a birth control pill - to stop those cows DS keeps having...

53 posted on 10/31/2005 12:23:27 PM PST by 70times7 (An open mind is a cesspool of thought)
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To: 70times7

Yes, attempt is correct.
If you cannot discuss anything without insulting, then this is not the forum for you.
I did not insult you, you had no business or reason to attempt insults or personal attacks.


54 posted on 10/31/2005 12:24:50 PM PST by Darksheare (I'm not suspicious & I hope it's nutritious but I think this sandwich is made of mime.)
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To: 70times7

Again with the insults.


55 posted on 10/31/2005 12:25:12 PM PST by Darksheare (I'm not suspicious & I hope it's nutritious but I think this sandwich is made of mime.)
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To: Darksheare
I retract my gratitude.

I have stated my case plainly. Any time you want to actually discuss it feel free.

56 posted on 10/31/2005 12:28:15 PM PST by 70times7 (An open mind is a cesspool of thought)
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To: 70times7

What gratitude?
You were trying to be insulting, repeatedly.


57 posted on 10/31/2005 12:29:33 PM PST by Darksheare (I'm not suspicious & I hope it's nutritious but I think this sandwich is made of mime.)
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To: Darksheare

I have stated my case plainly. Any time you want to actually discuss it feel free.


58 posted on 10/31/2005 12:30:51 PM PST by 70times7 (An open mind is a cesspool of thought)
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To: 70times7

And I stated mine, to which you felt the need to make personal attacks and make an attempt to be insulitng.


59 posted on 10/31/2005 12:31:46 PM PST by Darksheare (I'm not suspicious & I hope it's nutritious but I think this sandwich is made of mime.)
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To: GovernmentShrinker

Good policy isn't made based on speculation.


60 posted on 10/31/2005 12:34:15 PM PST by Eagle Eye (There ought to be a law against excess legislation.)
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To: Darksheare

You know what? I give up. You are right. Have a nice day.


61 posted on 10/31/2005 12:34:38 PM PST by 70times7 (An open mind is a cesspool of thought)
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To: 70times7

Perhaps if you didn't try to be insulting andactually discussed things instead of making personal attacks?
Just a suggestion.


62 posted on 10/31/2005 12:36:44 PM PST by Darksheare (I'm not suspicious & I hope it's nutritious but I think this sandwich is made of mime.)
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To: Darksheare
"Another who has to insult while saying nothing new. Mr. Rice has never heard of 'deterrent'. If deterrence didn't work, whuy do we have a standing Army and Navy? Why did we have ICBM's if deterrencec didn't work?"

Insult?? It wasn't meant as an insult, I apologize.

Now I'm confused, I was referring to the earlier statement you made about Mr. Rice's comment that the holster used and it's location was "poor judgement." I happen to agree with Mr. Rice.

Now you want to discuss deterrence. I would say, just by his qualifications, that Mr. Rice most certainly understands both deterrence and NH law.

He never said that citizens carrying guns did not deter crime and he never said that the police or the "alarmed" citizen were right to harrass a law abiding armed citizen.

63 posted on 10/31/2005 12:40:35 PM PST by Shadow Deamon
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To: GovernmentShrinker
The casual open carrier is an invitation to gun theft.

I think that depends on the carrier. Of course, carrying a firearm should never be casual.

For thirty years now I have found that being a reasonably fit 6'2" male who maintains, at least the appearance of, self-confidence in public has made me an unfavorable choice for any type of aggression. It also seems to inhibit acts of aggression against others in my presence. I don't think the addition of a sidearm to that profile would make me a more attractive target.

I would agree that carrying requires maintaining a high awareness of one's own conduct (as well as your surroundings) but that's probably a good idea for the un-armed as well. My biggest concern about theft comes when I have to leave my gun in the vehicle but, again, that's where awareness comes in. If there is any reason that someone might know I have a firearm I exercise due discretion about where I park or whether I leave the gun in the cab or store it more securely.

64 posted on 10/31/2005 12:41:08 PM PST by TigersEye (If you sow a righteous appearance you will reap a fear of righteousness.)
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To: PAR35
The only car the late Pope John Paul II ever owned sold at auction for $US680,000 ($A893,000) to a US lawyer and car collector.

The lawyer made it with tobacco settlements..

65 posted on 10/31/2005 12:42:30 PM PST by pageonetoo (You'll spot their posts soon enough!)
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To: petro45acp; neverdem

Thanks, looks liek a good site to answer all such questions....


66 posted on 10/31/2005 12:42:49 PM PST by theDentist (The Dems have put all their eggs in one basket-case: Howard "Belltower" Dean.)
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To: petro45acp

Thanks Top...

They didn't use that expression when I was in.


67 posted on 10/31/2005 12:46:34 PM PST by clee1 (We use 43 muscles to frown, 17 to smile, and 2 to pull a trigger. I'm lazy and I'm tired of smiling.)
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To: neverdem

" Rice said, “I think he exercised extraordinarily poor judgment on that particular night (because) he had an open-top holster in the small of his back in an unconcealed fashion. . . .

“Most professionals do not carry a gun there because it’s hard to access the weapon and hard to retain the weapon if someone wants to take it away from you.”"

He is correct that it is not a good idea to carry that way unconcealed. For concealed carry that type of holster is fine. Ever try to draw a concealed pistol positioned behind the hip from a holster with a retaining strap?
IMO it was very poor judgement to remove his jacket when he was supposed to be carrying concealed. You should always be aware that you are carrying, if you forget you have become complacent. In fact, if I was a skeptic (and I am), I would think he intentionally removed his jacket to start an incident.


68 posted on 10/31/2005 12:47:44 PM PST by BadAndy (Unnecessarily harsh)
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To: mvpel

Michael:

Congratulations for finally getting vindicated. I remember you took quite a bit of bashing on some other forums. Personally, I do not use an open-top holster when carrying openly. I use holsters with a thumb-break.


69 posted on 10/31/2005 12:49:48 PM PST by Mini-14
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Comment #70 Removed by Moderator

To: clee1

Bravo Zulu - i.e. WELL DONE in naval alpha code. I wish every pd in the US got similiar "training."


71 posted on 10/31/2005 1:07:33 PM PST by RKV ( He who has the guns, makes the rules.)
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To: RKV

Copy that.

I made damned sure that this department was going to get the necessary training... the consequences otherwise would have been REAL costly.

I am a reserve LEO in a nearby small township; the city cops nearby should have known better.


72 posted on 10/31/2005 1:30:41 PM PST by clee1 (We use 43 muscles to frown, 17 to smile, and 2 to pull a trigger. I'm lazy and I'm tired of smiling.)
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To: BadAndy
In fact, if I was a skeptic (and I am), I would think he intentionally removed his jacket to start an incident.

You can think what you want, and consider me a liar if you wish, but I have always said from March 28, 2004 onward, that it was a mistake on my part resulting from a too-hurried exit from my home to make a dinner reservation and a new, unfamiliar holster. And that's all I have to say about that.

Another correspondant pointed out that the police response would have been the same, or worse, if I had printed, or had been purposefully carrying openly in a Bianci thumb-break hip holster, so Alan Rice's "extremely poor judgement" comment on the style of holster I was using that evening misses the point entirely.

73 posted on 10/31/2005 1:43:19 PM PST by mvpel (Michael Pelletier)
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To: JMack

Looking forward to seeing you here!

I'm hoping that this pair of articles will help educate the cops across the state. Should be interesting to see what letters-to-the-editor come in in the next couple of days.


74 posted on 10/31/2005 1:45:14 PM PST by mvpel (Michael Pelletier)
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To: Army Air Corps
They weren't talking about firearms purchase.

Now try and carry openly here in Texas.

Or, pay up a couple hundred bucks, a 12 hour 1-day class, go through the hoops set up by the States "guilty until proven innocent" background checks, and then maybe they'll let you carry one but ony if you keep it concealed.

We need 50 State Alaska style C/CW to bring us inline with the Second Amendment.

75 posted on 10/31/2005 1:50:47 PM PST by Dead Corpse (Anyone who needs to be persuaded to be free, doesn't deserve to be. -El Neil)
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To: neverdem

Me? I just keep my M16A2 at sling arms. Less fuss.


76 posted on 10/31/2005 3:04:53 PM PST by Fenris6 (3 Purple Hearts in 4 months w/o missing a day of work? He's either John Rambo or a Fraud)
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To: ExcursionGuy84
"I seriously want to discover the person who first siad that "Ignorance is Bliss"

Remember, the rest of the expression is "Only when 'tis folly to be wise"

77 posted on 10/31/2005 3:11:40 PM PST by muir_redwoods (Free Sirhan Sirhan, after all, the bastard who killed Mary Jo Kopechne is walking around free)
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To: neverdem

I find it enlightening that two of these folks are Free Staters, a group that has been bashed a lot around here. It seems as though they are making their presence felt in a positive way, good for them.


78 posted on 10/31/2005 3:37:27 PM PST by diogenes ghost
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To: neverdem
Alan M. Rice of Brookline, the treasurer of the New Hampshire Firearms Coalition, has been dealing with gun use safety for 10 years. He is certified as an “instructor-trainer,” qualified to teach even the firearms instructors...

Though it is legal to carry a gun in plain view, “open-carry is not a bright idea,” Rice said. “You are a target. If someone comes in with criminal intent, the first thing he is going to do is neutralize any person with a weapon who can hurt him.”

Mr. Rice doesn't get it.

79 posted on 10/31/2005 3:39:34 PM PST by thegreatbeast (Quid lucrum istic mihi est?)
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To: GovernmentShrinker

Your moniker is ironic.


80 posted on 10/31/2005 3:49:13 PM PST by thegreatbeast (Quid lucrum istic mihi est?)
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Comment #81 Removed by Moderator

To: clee1

Thank you.


82 posted on 10/31/2005 6:33:32 PM PST by hoosierham (Waddaya mean Freedom isn't free ?;will you take a creditcard?)
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To: thegreatbeast

Why? Because I agree with the quoted firearms instructor and New Hampshire Firearms Coalition officer that "Though it is legal to carry a gun in plain view, “open-carry is not a bright idea.”"?

You seem to be confusing an assertion that something is stupid, with an assertion that it ought to be illegal. Back to reading comprehension class for you.


83 posted on 10/31/2005 9:06:23 PM PST by GovernmentShrinker
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To: GovernmentShrinker

Ouch! Check your attitude(s).


84 posted on 10/31/2005 10:26:20 PM PST by thegreatbeast (Quid lucrum istic mihi est?)
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To: Harriet Souter Gonzales; diogenes ghost
Free Staters are only scary to people who are against a real restoration of Federalism.
The FSP and LP are also scary to people (in NH and elsewhere) who feel their plank on the elimination of free tax-funded public education will throw this country into a new dark age.
85 posted on 11/01/2005 3:35:59 AM PST by Nonesuch
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To: clee1

"Thanks Top...

They didn't use that expression when I was in."

That's what I get for spending time around Navy types. "Elephant cages" and such!

Take care,
Top sends


86 posted on 11/01/2005 6:16:57 AM PST by petro45acp (SUPPORT/BE YOUR LOCAL SHEEPDOG!!!!)
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Comment #87 Removed by Moderator

To: Army Air Corps

Yep! A short form, a phone call, and a 'have fun shooting'!
Oh, and the painfull part of handing over the money! Im thinkin about buying a new gun within the next few weeks. Been looking into a bushmaster.


88 posted on 11/01/2005 9:12:48 AM PST by BigTom85 (Proud Gun Owner and Member of NRA)
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To: neverdem; AAABEST; A.J.Armitage; archy; austingirl; BADROTOFINGER; Baseballguy; Beck_isright; ...
Porcuping!

You betcha!


89 posted on 11/01/2005 11:31:23 AM PST by archy (The darkness will come. It will find you,and it will scare you like you've never been scared before.)
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To: GovernmentShrinker
The casual open carrier is an invitation to gun theft.

Indeed. Why, anyone who wants to steal a gun for their own use need only ambush an armed/uniformed cop and take his.

But there does not seem to be much of an epidemic of such incidents- yet. Perhaps only some citizens are fully equal to others....

90 posted on 11/01/2005 11:35:59 AM PST by archy (The darkness will come. It will find you,and it will scare you like you've never been scared before.)
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To: neverdem
You would think we should learn that once you give anyone power over you, they will eventually abuse that power. It is a human failing.

The Founding Fathers understood this but I am convinced they were the last ones.

I challenge anyone to find a large organization, of any type, government, private, church etc. that does not abuse their power simply because they became powerful.

Paging Lord Acton!

91 posted on 11/01/2005 11:42:13 AM PST by Wurlitzer (I have the biggest organ in my town {;o))
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To: diogenes ghost
I find it enlightening that two of these folks are Free Staters, a group that has been bashed a lot around here. It seems as though they are making their presence felt in a positive way, good for them.

You are invited to join the FR Free Staters' ping list, AKA the *Porcupine List,* for future FR posts and additional info on FSP and FWP news and activity reports.

Alternately, you can use the FR keyword search for *PORCUPINES* *FSP* or *FREESTATEPROJECT*.

92 posted on 11/01/2005 11:44:56 AM PST by archy (The darkness will come. It will find you,and it will scare you like you've never been scared before.)
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To: mvpel
You can think what you want, and consider me a liar if you wish, but I have always said from March 28, 2004 onward, that it was a mistake on my part resulting from a too-hurried exit from my home to make a dinner reservation and a new, unfamiliar holster. And that's all I have to say about that.

Another correspondant pointed out that the police response would have been the same, or worse, if I had printed, or had been purposefully carrying openly in a Bianci thumb-break hip holster, so Alan Rice's "extremely poor judgement" comment on the style of holster I was using that evening misses the point entirely.

Concur. Rice's comments about holster selection echo others I've heard from self-importantinstructors about the *only* sort of equipment that ought to be used by handgun carriers, whether open or concealed, that all too often for some reason happens to coincide with the style/make of holster sold in said instructor's gun shop or by an associated pal.

Agency restrictions often follow similar influences, though the current military and contractor restrictions in Iraq prohibiting horizontal-carry shoulder rigs resulted from actual injury-producing incidents. And horizontal-carry Small-of-Back *SOB* belt rigs offer the same sort of possibility.

93 posted on 11/01/2005 11:59:11 AM PST by archy (The darkness will come. It will find you,and it will scare you like you've never been scared before.)
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To: clee1; RKV
What is "BZ"????

*info here*.

[Though perhaps not the meaning intended....]

94 posted on 11/01/2005 12:00:27 PM PST by archy (The darkness will come. It will find you,and it will scare you like you've never been scared before.)
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To: neverdem
I first heard about this from a post by Mike Pelletier at packing.org a few months ago. There's also a thread over at packing.rrg about this article. One of the other folks mentioned in the article "Alan M. Rice" has also chimed in with his take.
95 posted on 11/01/2005 12:10:21 PM PST by P8riot (When they come for your guns, give them the bullets first.)
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To: Shadow Deamon

Especially since he had his nose buried in a book.


96 posted on 11/01/2005 12:20:51 PM PST by gc4nra ( this tag line protected by Kimber and the First Amendment (I voted for McClintock))
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To: Shadow Deamon

Especially since he had his nose buried in a book.


97 posted on 11/01/2005 12:20:51 PM PST by gc4nra ( this tag line protected by Kimber and the First Amendment (I voted for McClintock))
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To: archy
Hey Archy, how the hell you been?
Good I pray.

Y'know these incidents -- seem to me -- all based upon a series of unfortunate (& rare) circumstances which led up to each of the encounters with LEOs.

Why the LEOs -- of all people -- aren't up to speed regarding laws governing firearm possession in the very state they're working is quite frankly beyond me.
Be that as it may it'd appear that's precisely what's happening, eh?

I guess what I find the most bothersome in each incident was after IDs had been produced in compliance with LEO's demand(s) they seemed to not want to let it go, deliberately choosing to antagonize the (now known) law abiding citizen.
Apparently LEOs in NH no longer can differentiate between a genuine "criminal" and a law abiding citizen, anymore.

...& worrisome for a a whole host of reasons.

98 posted on 11/01/2005 2:27:25 PM PST by Landru (A sucker born every minute = ~36,288,800 new suckers every year.)
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To: gc4nra
"Especially since he had his nose buried in a book."

Absolutely, and I don't say that to insult anyone. We all have to take other peoples experience, good or bad, and learn from it.

99 posted on 11/01/2005 5:06:10 PM PST by Shadow Deamon
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To: Shadow Deamon

Glad someone agrees.


Bottom line is: If you're carrying exposed, in an open top holster, in the small of your back, in a crowded store while you're distracted, you are inviting disaster!


100 posted on 11/01/2005 5:31:03 PM PST by gc4nra ( this tag line protected by Kimber and the First Amendment (I voted for McClintock))
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