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Board member to resume testimony in 'intelligent design' trial
Times Leader (Wilkes-Barre, PA) ^ | 02 November 2005 | MARTHA RAFFAELE

Posted on 11/02/2005 3:35:41 AM PST by PatrickHenry

A school board member who was questioned by a federal judge about discrepancies in his testimony on the purchase of "intelligent design" textbooks was expected to return to the witness stand Wednesday.

Dover Area School Board member Alan Bonsell was to undergo redirect questioning by an attorney representing the board in a landmark trial over whether intelligent design can be introduced in high school science classes.

Bonsell testified Monday that he had received an $850 check from fellow board member William Buckingham. The check was made out to Bonsell's father, who volunteered to donate copies of "Of Pandas and People" to the district.

U.S. District Judge John E. Jones III asked Bonsell why he never shared that information in a January deposition when he was repeatedly asked under oath about who was involved in making the donation. Bonsell, who served as the board's president in 2004, said he misspoke. [Note to school board lawyers: When the judge asks your client why he's lying, it's usually not a good sign.]

Buckingham testified Thursday he collected $850 in donations to help purchase the books during a Sunday service at his church.

The board is defending its October 2004 decision to require students to hear a statement about intelligent design before ninth-grade biology lessons on evolution. The statement says Charles Darwin's theory is "not a fact," has inexplicable "gaps," and refers students to the textbook for more information.

Eight families are suing to have intelligent design removed from the biology curriculum because they believe the policy essentially promotes the Bible's view of creation, and therefore violates the constitutional separation of church and state.

Intelligent design supporters argue that natural selection, an element of evolutionary theory, cannot fully explain the origin of life or the emergence of highly complex life forms.

The trial began Sept. 26 and is expected to conclude on Friday.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: bearingfalsewitness; creationisminadress; crevolist; dover; rwc1tempertantrum
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The demolition of Behe happened, as expected, while the plaintiff parents were putting on their case. But this disintegration of the school board members is happening while the defendant school board is putting on their defense. Their lawyers must be on the verge of suicide. And this appears to be the final week of the trial. Things are, as they say, reaching a climax.
1 posted on 11/02/2005 3:35:41 AM PST by PatrickHenry
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To: VadeRetro; Junior; longshadow; RadioAstronomer; Doctor Stochastic; js1138; Shryke; RightWhale; ...
EvolutionPing
A pro-evolution science list with over 310 names.
See the list's explanation at my freeper homepage.
Then FReepmail to be added or dropped.
See what's new in The List-O-Links.

2 posted on 11/02/2005 3:36:59 AM PST by PatrickHenry (Reality is a harsh mistress. No rationality, no mercy)
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The CrevoSci Archive
Just one of the many services of Darwin Central
"The Conspiracy that Cares"

CrevoSci threads for the past week:

  1. 2005-11-02 Board member to resume testimony in 'intelligent design' trial
  2. 2005-11-01 Kosky rules intelligent design a faith (Only religious classes can offer I.D. Down Under)
  3. 2005-11-01 Darwinian Democrats
  4. 2005-11-01 Judge grills Dover official [Dover trial 11/1/05]
  5. 2005-11-01 Contract dispute ignites Dover race
  6. 2005-10-31 Scientists and engineers apply nature's design to human problems (Man borrows from God's DESIGN)
  7. 2005-10-31 Kansas Fight on Evolution Escalates (Teachers groups punish Kansas school)
  8. 2005-10-30 A Critique of Douglas Theobald’s “29 Evidences for Macroevolution”
  9. 2005-10-30 Meru Foundation eTORUS(tm) Newsletter #30 (Intelligent Design: Don't be taken in)
  10. 2005-10-29 Groups Balk at Teaching Intelligent Design
  11. 2005-10-28 Buckingham seesaws on the stand [Dover trial 10/28/05]
  12. 2005-10-28 Scientists discover dyslexia gene
  13. 2005-10-28 The Worst Jobs in Science No.3- Kansas Biology Teacher
  14. 2005-10-28 Is US becoming hostile to science?
  15. 2005-10-27 Generosity Is No Monkey Business, Study
  16. 2005-10-27 Jumping wallaby genes and post-Flood speciation (Evidence supports Biblical model)
  17. 2005-10-27 How Miers and Dover Intersect: 'Science' determines 'Law'
  18. 2005-10-27 Former school board member `misspoke' in advocating creationism
  19. 2005-10-27 Bone marrow stem cells may heal hearts even years after heart attacks
  20. 2005-10-27 Genetic Catalog May Aid Search for Roots of Disease
  21. 2005-10-27 Sex-Selection by Embryo Screening Approved for US Trial

CrevoSci Warrior Freepdays for the month of November:
 

2000-11-10 AncientAirs
2000-11-21 AndrewC
1998-11-18 angelo
1999-11-22 Blood of Tyrants
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2001-11-30 claptrap
2001-11-16 CobaltBlue
2002-11-21 DannyTN
2004-11-16 DaveLoneRanger
1997-11-30 Ditto
2001-11-16
dmz
2000-11-11 Ernest_at_the_Beach
2000-11-02 Exit 109
2000-11-12 ForGod'sSake
2001-11-07 FourtySeven
2000-11-10 Godel
2004-11-06 GreenOgre
2000-11-04 harbinger of doom
2000-11-28 HiTech RedNeck
1999-11-05 Ichneumon
1998-11-13 jennyp
1998-11-25 Junior_G
2002-11-17 Just mythoughts
2004-11-11
kaotic133
2003-11-18 little jeremiah
1998-11-18 malakhi
2000-11-06 mrjeff
1999-11-05 muleskinner
2003-11-17 Nathan Zachary
2002-11-12 NCLaw441
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2000-11-24 old-ager
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2000-11-10 Patriotic Teen
1998-11-01
Pharmboy
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2000-11-30 Right Wing Professor
2004-11-18 rightwinggoth
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1998-11-04 RobRoy
1999-11-16 TerP26
2000-11-04 TigerTale
2004-11-11 untrained skeptic
2000-11-05 will of the people
2003-11-29
woodb01

In Memoriam
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ALS
angelo
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Aric2000
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3 posted on 11/02/2005 3:42:55 AM PST by Junior (From now on, I'll stick to science, and leave the hunting alien mutants to the experts!)
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To: PatrickHenry
So far, this trial has only reconfirmed what we've constantly seen evidenced over and over on these threads. Creationists are basically a disorganized bunch of dishonest liars who base their whole concept on reality on liberally self interpreted myths and superstitions supplemented with constant denial of what's easily observed all around them. What's really scary is that there's enough of them to elect local school board officials in isolated backwaters.
4 posted on 11/02/2005 4:13:48 AM PST by shuckmaster (Bring back SeaLion and ModernMan!)
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To: shuckmaster
"...What's really scary is that there's enough of them to elect local school board officials in isolated backwaters."

Don't forget the state of Kansas.

5 posted on 11/02/2005 4:56:34 AM PST by From many - one.
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To: shuckmaster
What's really scary is that there's enough of them to elect local school board officials in isolated backwaters.

Democracy is scary. You just can't allow or trust a bunch of slope-headed slack-jawed Christians to elect school board members to represent their views and design a school program curriculum. The State must shove Darwinism and athiesm down their throats until we eliminate this this scourge called Christianity.
/sarc

6 posted on 11/02/2005 5:05:47 AM PST by Rightwing Conspiratr1 (Lock-n-load!)
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To: Rightwing Conspiratr1

Christianity survived Copernicus and it will survive Darwin. God is not offended by our discovering how things work.


7 posted on 11/02/2005 5:35:03 AM PST by js1138 (Great is the power of steady misrepresentation.)
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To: Rightwing Conspiratr1

Democracy has nothing to do with it when the democratically elected morons breach people's constitutional rights. If you democratically elected a bunch of people who decided to institute Islam as the official religion of the United States, you'd be one of the first of the mouth-breathers lining up in protest.


8 posted on 11/02/2005 5:55:37 AM PST by WildHorseCrash
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To: PatrickHenry
Isn't this the same school board member who "misspoke" about not saying that the school needed to teach Creationism, despite contemporaneous notes that had him saying exactly that?

A serial mis-speaker!?!?!?
9 posted on 11/02/2005 6:07:24 AM PST by USConstitutionBuff
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To: PatrickHenry
Their lawyers must be on the verge of suicide.

I'm still not 100% optimistic about a win (though that may be my pessimistic side attempting to avert potential disappointment...when it comes to pseudoscience, to me the glass is always half empty.)

Another (humorously) interesting link from FoxNews - apparently the key to the true genius of Einstein & Darwin is managing your inbox .

10 posted on 11/02/2005 6:13:00 AM PST by Quark2005 (Science aims to elucidate. Pseudoscience aims to obfuscate.)
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To: Rightwing Conspiratr1
What's really scary is that there's enough of them to elect local school board officials in isolated backwaters.

Democracy is scary. You just can't allow or trust a bunch of slope-headed slack-jawed Christians to elect school board members to represent their views and design a school program curriculum. The State must shove Darwinism and athiesm down their throats until we eliminate this this scourge called Christianity.

Teaching semi-inteligent design as a valid alternative to evolution is just one step from teaching that the earth is flat with 4 corners like the bible says as a valid alternative to conventional geography.

So9

11 posted on 11/02/2005 6:23:55 AM PST by Servant of the 9 (Trust Me)
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To: Quark2005
I'm still not 100% optimistic about a win (though that may be my pessimistic side attempting to avert potential disappointment...when it comes to pseudoscience, to me the glass is always half empty.)

I'm cautious, as well. Pseudoscience is a pernicious and seductive evil, appealing to many people partly because it re-inforces prejudices and partly because it offers simple solutions to complex issues.

It's like liberalism - fuzzy-headed, feel-good answers to tough questions. Feelings over facts, emotions over reason. And just like liberalism, pseudoscience will continue to win converts among them who want easy answers.

That's why we can't let down our guard, even when our opponents are as transparent and incompetent as this bunch of yahoos.

12 posted on 11/02/2005 7:00:24 AM PST by highball ("I find that the harder I work, the more luck I seem to have." -- Thomas Jefferson)
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To: WildHorseCrash

"The real object of the [first] amendment was, not to countenance, much less to advance Mahometanism, or Judaism, or infidelity, by prostrating Christianity; but to exclude all rivalry among Christian sects, and to prevent any national ecclesiastical establishment, which should give to an hierarchy the exclusive patronage of the national government..." - Supreme Court Justice Joseph Story


13 posted on 11/02/2005 7:12:35 AM PST by Rightwing Conspiratr1 (Lock-n-load!)
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To: Servant of the 9

"There is simply no historical foundation for the proposition that the framers intended to build a wall of separation...
... the "wall of separation between church and State" is a metaphor based on bad history, a metaphor which has proved useless as a guide to judging. It should be frankly and explicitly abandoned." -- Chief Justice of the Supreme Court, William Rehnquist


14 posted on 11/02/2005 7:14:21 AM PST by Rightwing Conspiratr1 (Lock-n-load!)
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To: PatrickHenry
And this appears to be the final week of the trial. Things are, as they say, reaching a climax.

And I for one will being going through withdrawl symptoms once it is over; this has been the most illuminating and entertaining trial I've ever seen reported, featuring an ID "Scientist" who claims that despite having no idea what the mechanism is for ID, he can none the less "see" it based on "purposeful arrangement of parts," plus several members of the school board who have variously lied & dissembled, and thus probably perjured themselves and obstructed justice whilst under oath.

Essentially, the notion that ID is science has been crushed, the notion that this school board wanted to introduce the statement in question for reasons unrelated to religion has been demolished, and the board memebers' integrity lies [no pun intended] in a smoldering heap.

It doesn't get any better than this.... unless of course the judge has the board members arrested and thrown in jail for perjury, obstruction, or contempt of court. He could just as well charge them with felony stupidity, but that would be "piling on."

15 posted on 11/02/2005 7:17:09 AM PST by longshadow
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To: PatrickHenry
Willkommen! Bienvenue! Welcome!

I need a shower after the thread I just came from. YEEECCHHH!!! Wouldn't have pinged my worst enemy to it.

16 posted on 11/02/2005 7:19:07 AM PST by VadeRetro (Liberalism is a cancer on society. Creationism is a cancer on conservatism.)
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To: Rightwing Conspiratr1

Would it shock you to know he was writing in 1833, well before the passage of the 14th Amendment, and that his views are a minority view of what the law is??? Look, we can debate back and forth about what the law should be, but not what the law is. (You are entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts, as someone on these boards keeps noting.)


17 posted on 11/02/2005 7:24:21 AM PST by WildHorseCrash
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To: Rightwing Conspiratr1

Funny, William Rehnquist telling us that Jefferson didn't actually mean what Jefferson said he meant.


18 posted on 11/02/2005 7:24:29 AM PST by highball ("I find that the harder I work, the more luck I seem to have." -- Thomas Jefferson)
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To: PatrickHenry; connectthedots
The demolition of Behe happened...

Oh, no! Just ask connectthedots. Everything is going swimmingly for the defense. They're refuting all allegations and it's all wonderful.

[Whoops! There goes another load of winged monkeys out of my rectum!]

19 posted on 11/02/2005 7:30:54 AM PST by VadeRetro (Liberalism is a cancer on society. Creationism is a cancer on conservatism.)
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To: highball
Funny, William Rehnquist telling us that Jefferson didn't actually mean what Jefferson said he meant.

He's telling us that Jefferson didn't mean what Hugo Black said Jefferson meant.

20 posted on 11/02/2005 7:31:33 AM PST by Rightwing Conspiratr1 (Lock-n-load!)
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To: Rightwing Conspiratr1
The State must shove Darwinism and athiesm down their throats until we eliminate this this scourge called Christianity.

Teaching Intelligent Design or Creationism -- so long as prior to either objectively succeeding in science, and therefore including them in curricula on the basis of "intellectual affirmative action" -- will do (and even the attempt has done) far, far more damage to Christianity.

Affirmative action is usually a disaster when applied to persons (i.e. apart from very special and limited circumstances), but it's always damaging (and discrediting) to ideas which receive its "help".

21 posted on 11/02/2005 7:36:24 AM PST by Stultis
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===> Placemarker <===
22 posted on 11/02/2005 7:37:49 AM PST by Coyoteman (I love the sound of beta decay in the morning!)
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To: WildHorseCrash
Would it shock you to know he was writing in 1833, well before the passage of the 14th Amendment, and that his views are a minority view of what the law is???

Well Duh! The 14th amendment did not change the meaning of 1st amendment and did not institute a WALL of SEPARATION. Only liberals, communists, athiest monkey worshippers and other anti-conservative neo-nazi swine believe that FDR's socialist/communist packed court did not change the meaning of the law.

Jesus Christ belongs in the public schools.

23 posted on 11/02/2005 7:39:22 AM PST by Rightwing Conspiratr1 (Lock-n-load!)
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To: Rightwing Conspiratr1

"Wall of separation" comes from Jefferson himself. Direct quote, in a letter preserved for the ages.

Rehnquist is trying to tell us that Jefferson didn't really mean what he said he mean in that letter. It's a nice try, but an uphill argument.


24 posted on 11/02/2005 7:44:51 AM PST by highball ("I find that the harder I work, the more luck I seem to have." -- Thomas Jefferson)
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To: Stultis
Affirmative action is usually a disaster when applied to persons (i.e. apart from very special and limited circumstances), but it's always damaging (and discrediting) to ideas which receive its "help".

This is an attempt at affirmative action for athiesm and monkey worshippers. A small minority of God-less heathens and communists want to remove any and all references to Jesus Christ and the God of Abraham from the public sphere.

God created the world and man and it can and shall be mentioned in the public school.

25 posted on 11/02/2005 7:45:10 AM PST by Rightwing Conspiratr1 (Lock-n-load!)
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To: Rightwing Conspiratr1
Jesus Christ belongs in the public schools.

But does he belong in a science class?

How about Buddha? Krishna? Mohammed?

If not them, why not them?

26 posted on 11/02/2005 7:48:14 AM PST by highball ("I find that the harder I work, the more luck I seem to have." -- Thomas Jefferson)
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To: VadeRetro

"[Whoops! There goes another load of winged monkeys out of my rectum!]"

Is that where they are coming from? Call them back.

They're polluting the atmosphere.
They're disgusting.
They cause global warming.
They may give birth to a turkey (or already have).


27 posted on 11/02/2005 7:48:15 AM PST by furball4paws (One of the last Evil Geniuses, or the first of their return.)
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To: Stultis

Affirmative action and content neutrality are hotfixes for a weak platform.


28 posted on 11/02/2005 7:49:43 AM PST by cornelis (Fecisti nos ad te.)
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To: highball
Reynolds v. U.S (1878), "The great vital and conservative element of our system is the belief of our people in the pure doctrines and the divine truths of the Gospel of Jesus Christ." Cittations for support? - Jefferson's 1802 letter to the Danbury Baptist Association.

Communists, athiests and monkey worshippers can only cite the phrase out of context.

29 posted on 11/02/2005 7:51:21 AM PST by Rightwing Conspiratr1 (Lock-n-load!)
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To: PatrickHenry
FLASH TRAFFIC!!!

MESSAGE SENT 15:44 UTC 2 NOVEMBER 2005 VIA DARWINCENTRAL'S LOW FREQUENCY "GALAPAGOS NET"........

"IN VIEW OF RECENT DEVELOPMENTS IN THE INTELLIGENT DESIGN TRIAL AT DOVER,PA, ALL DARWINCENTRAL™ OPERATIVES AND UNITS ARE ADVISED TO HENCEFORTH REFER TO THE TRIAL AS THE "PERJURY-FEST IN DOVER"

MESSAGE ENDS.

[signed] PER ORDER OF THE GRANDMASTER, DARWINCENTRAL™, etc. etc.....

30 posted on 11/02/2005 7:52:41 AM PST by longshadow
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To: highball
How about Buddha? Krishna? Mohammed?

"Had the people during the revolution had any suspicion of any attempt to war against Christianity, the revolution would have been strangled in its cradle . . . At the time of the adoption of the constitution and the amendments, the universal sentiment was the Christianity should be encouraged, but not any one sect . . . In this age, there can be no substitute for Christianity. That was the religion of the founders of the Republic and they expected it to remain the religion of their descendants." - House Judiciary Committee 1854

See earlier quote by Justice Story on the Founder's intent that Chrisitanity NOT be prostrated before Mohametism.

31 posted on 11/02/2005 7:53:57 AM PST by Rightwing Conspiratr1 (Lock-n-load!)
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To: furball4paws
It's too late! I've turned them loose! SURRENDER, DOROTHY!!
32 posted on 11/02/2005 7:54:20 AM PST by VadeRetro (Liberalism is a cancer on society. Creationism is a cancer on conservatism.)
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To: highball
If not them, why not them?

Insofar as world history is part of a curriculum you would teach these. Remember, this is elementary and basic education, and you don't have to worry that too much time will be spent teaching about some obscure mystery from the jungles of Papua New Guinea. If that happens, we have a different problem.

Although I think that with your query you underestimate the character of Americans.

33 posted on 11/02/2005 7:56:30 AM PST by cornelis (Fecisti nos ad te.)
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To: Rightwing Conspiratr1
"There is simply no historical foundation for the proposition that the framers intended to build a wall of separation...
... the "wall of separation between church and State" is a metaphor based on bad history, a metaphor which has proved useless as a guide to judging. It should be frankly and explicitly abandoned."
-- Chief Justice of the Supreme Court, William Rehnquist

I have no objection to teaching religion in public schools, I just object to teaching it as science.

So9

34 posted on 11/02/2005 8:07:13 AM PST by Servant of the 9 (Trust Me)
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To: Rightwing Conspiratr1
It didn't change the meaning of the law, you half-wit, it changed the interpretation of the law. And the US held out to the world that it wasn't a Christian nation from the beginning.

The Constitution protects my kids from being brainwashed in public schools with your superstitious nonsense. And anyone who says that their theolgy should be promoted by the government is a domestic enemy and terrorist and should be fought, with arms if necessary, to prevent them from accomplishing that evil deed.

35 posted on 11/02/2005 8:08:45 AM PST by WildHorseCrash
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To: Servant of the 9
I just object to teaching it as science

It takes a fit of religious fervor to claim that science is must be autonomous. But this much will be repeated even after all the courts have decided, there is no such thing as content neutrality when it concerns human nature.

36 posted on 11/02/2005 8:14:09 AM PST by cornelis (Fecisti nos ad te.)
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To: WildHorseCrash
It didn't change the meaning of the law, you half-wit, it changed the interpretation of the law. And the US held out to the world that it wasn't a Christian nation from the beginning.

Runkel v. Winemiller (1796) - "By our form of government, the Christian religion is the established religion, and the sects and denominations of Christians are placed upon the same equal footing."

The Constitution protects my kids from being brainwashed in public schools with your superstitious nonsense.

No. You are thinking of Article 52 of Constitution of the Soviet Socialist Republic. You might like that, but we're not going to let you Communists interpret Our Consitution any more. Get thee back to mother Russia.

37 posted on 11/02/2005 8:20:01 AM PST by Rightwing Conspiratr1 (Lock-n-load!)
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To: VadeRetro

OK you've hasked for it. Toto will take care of them. That kamikaze canine.

"TOTO, TOTO I have a little job for you."


38 posted on 11/02/2005 8:23:58 AM PST by furball4paws (One of the last Evil Geniuses, or the first of their return.)
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To: cornelis
"Insofar as world history is part of a curriculum you would teach these."

Of course you would. But that's not what Rightwing Conspiratr1 meant. He wants the Christ's divinity taught as truth instead of as faith.

Put all the world's religious figures in context, and teach them in history and philosophy classes. But not in science classes - they just don't belong there.

39 posted on 11/02/2005 8:27:01 AM PST by highball ("I find that the harder I work, the more luck I seem to have." -- Thomas Jefferson)
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To: furball4paws

Horse manure giving birth to a Theocratic fungus placemarker.


40 posted on 11/02/2005 8:27:23 AM PST by furball4paws (One of the last Evil Geniuses, or the first of their return.)
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To: furball4paws
Don't make me unleash my secret weapon.


41 posted on 11/02/2005 8:29:30 AM PST by VadeRetro (Liberalism is a cancer on society. Creationism is a cancer on conservatism.)
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To: Rightwing Conspiratr1
Runkel v. Winemiller (1796) - "By our form of government, the Christian religion is the established religion, and the sects and denominations of Christians are placed upon the same equal footing."

Goes to show that boneheaded Supreme Court decisions are nothing new. Unless you think the Men in Black are infallible?

That's just a Christian version of judicial activism. If the Founders wanted a Christian nation, they would have referenced Christ once in the documents that established this country. They didn't - were they trying to sneak Christianity in?

42 posted on 11/02/2005 8:30:02 AM PST by highball ("I find that the harder I work, the more luck I seem to have." -- Thomas Jefferson)
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To: Rightwing Conspiratr1; WildHorseCrash
Runkel v. Winemiller (1796)

Since when does the Supreme Court of Maryland dictate the Constitution for the nation?

43 posted on 11/02/2005 8:32:04 AM PST by Senator Bedfellow (g_r)
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To: Rightwing Conspiratr1
This is an attempt at affirmative action for athiesm and monkey worshippers.

I defy you to produce any evidence showing that the scientifically literate are prone to prostrating themselves before monkeys.

44 posted on 11/02/2005 8:32:06 AM PST by Quark2005 (Science aims to elucidate. Pseudoscience aims to obfuscate.)
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To: highball
Goes to show that boneheaded Supreme Court decisions are nothing new.

See my previous post - it wasn't even a federal case, in which case, who cares?

45 posted on 11/02/2005 8:33:08 AM PST by Senator Bedfellow (g_r)
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To: VadeRetro

Never underestimate the tenacity of a terrier.


46 posted on 11/02/2005 8:34:14 AM PST by furball4paws (One of the last Evil Geniuses, or the first of their return.)
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To: Rightwing Conspiratr1
So you're really trying to pretend that, despite the clear wording of the constitution itself, our body of laws has already established a Christian Theocracy? Despite your being about the only one who seems to know this?

I marvel at the collection of loonies that shows up on these threads, really.

47 posted on 11/02/2005 8:37:15 AM PST by VadeRetro (Liberalism is a cancer on society. Creationism is a cancer on conservatism.)
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To: furball4paws
I never negotiate with terrierists.
48 posted on 11/02/2005 8:38:01 AM PST by VadeRetro (Liberalism is a cancer on society. Creationism is a cancer on conservatism.)
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To: Senator Bedfellow

Sorry, didn't read your earlier post. Good catch.


49 posted on 11/02/2005 8:38:10 AM PST by highball ("I find that the harder I work, the more luck I seem to have." -- Thomas Jefferson)
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To: VadeRetro
What is that little thing?

I've got cats three times that size and twice as handsome!

By the way, there are three sizes of dog:

I think yours is on the low end of Yippensnapper.
50 posted on 11/02/2005 8:39:59 AM PST by Coyoteman (I love the sound of beta decay in the morning!)
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