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Board member to resume testimony in 'intelligent design' trial
Times Leader (Wilkes-Barre, PA) ^ | 02 November 2005 | MARTHA RAFFAELE

Posted on 11/02/2005 3:35:41 AM PST by PatrickHenry

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To: King Prout

Note that "Sendero Luminoso" manages quite well without having the words: "people's" or "movement" or "democratic" or "front" in their name.


151 posted on 11/02/2005 1:21:49 PM PST by Doctor Stochastic (Vegetabilisch = chaotisch ist der Charakter der Modernen. - Friedrich Schlegel)
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To: PatrickHenry

ICR are the guys who fear Darwinism leads to Capitalism.


152 posted on 11/02/2005 1:23:00 PM PST by Doctor Stochastic (Vegetabilisch = chaotisch ist der Charakter der Modernen. - Friedrich Schlegel)
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To: Doctor Stochastic

splitters!


153 posted on 11/02/2005 1:23:06 PM PST by King Prout (many accuse me of being overly literal... this would not be a problem if many were not under-precise)
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To: Doctor Stochastic

besides, the name "Shining Path" references directly the old Maoist/Marxist populism, so calling it the "People's Democratic Front of the Shining Path Movement" would be a bit redundant, no?


154 posted on 11/02/2005 1:26:42 PM PST by King Prout (many accuse me of being overly literal... this would not be a problem if many were not under-precise)
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To: Doctor Stochastic
ICR are the guys who fear Darwinism leads to Capitalism.

Darwin's Influence on Ruthless Laissez Faire Capitalism. ICR links Darwin to good ol' capitalism.

Well, at least they don't pay taxes.

155 posted on 11/02/2005 1:26:46 PM PST by PatrickHenry (Reality is a harsh mistress. No rationality, no mercy)
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To: Doctor Stochastic

http://www.mwscomp.com/movies/brian/brian-07.htm


156 posted on 11/02/2005 1:33:30 PM PST by King Prout (many accuse me of being overly literal... this would not be a problem if many were not under-precise)
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To: All
WARNING: Click on this link to scientific information only if you're over 18, and NOT the sensitive type:
What unique organ is found only in mammals, but not in fish, amphibians, reptiles, or birds?.
157 posted on 11/02/2005 1:46:45 PM PST by PatrickHenry (Reality is a harsh mistress. No rationality, no mercy)
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To: RightWingNilla
The plaintiff's stomachs are being grilled in Hell. </Bob-mode>
158 posted on 11/02/2005 1:48:56 PM PST by VadeRetro (Liberalism is a cancer on society. Creationism is a cancer on conservatism.)
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To: RightWingNilla
103 is something to see and it's still there for now. Gives you a flavor.
159 posted on 11/02/2005 1:52:02 PM PST by VadeRetro (Liberalism is a cancer on society. Creationism is a cancer on conservatism.)
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To: PatrickHenry
Figure A has an intriguing little yellow pop-up tag in my browser. Something to do with Hox genes.
160 posted on 11/02/2005 2:01:28 PM PST by VadeRetro (Liberalism is a cancer on society. Creationism is a cancer on conservatism.)
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To: VadeRetro

Ho(a)x Genetics! see! they ADMIT IT!
>/JackChick<


161 posted on 11/02/2005 2:05:40 PM PST by King Prout (many accuse me of being overly literal... this would not be a problem if many were not under-precise)
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To: longshadow

monkey worshippers place marker...


162 posted on 11/02/2005 3:21:10 PM PST by shuckmaster (Bring back SeaLion and ModernMan!)
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To: PatrickHenry

This would make an interesting case study for ninth graders.


163 posted on 11/02/2005 3:44:43 PM PST by js1138 (Great is the power of steady misrepresentation.)
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To: shuckmaster
Plascemarker


164 posted on 11/02/2005 3:57:08 PM PST by js1138 (Great is the power of steady misrepresentation.)
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To: b_sharp

PlaceMarker


165 posted on 11/02/2005 4:01:39 PM PST by b_sharp (Science adjusts theories to fit evidence, creationism distorts evidence to fit the Bible.)
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To: PatrickHenry
Let me just echo the comment found on your link.

Hooray for HoxA-13! It has just become my favorite Hox gene.

166 posted on 11/02/2005 4:12:39 PM PST by Dinsdale
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To: js1138
Regarding Rightwing Conspiratr1 -- folks should read up on the md4bush fiasco. When someone looks too bizarre to believe, perhaps they aren't what they pretend to be.

Well you better start cracking as you've got almost 8 years and thousands of posts to go through. I've been warned to steer clear of Freeper pagan religion threads before. No big deal.

167 posted on 11/02/2005 4:33:03 PM PST by Rightwing Conspiratr1 (Lock-n-load!)
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To: Rightwing Conspiratr1
md4bush was here seven years before revealing himself. Lots of multi-year FReepers have crashed on these threads. Your first clue is getting two or more posts pulled in one day.

I've had maybe three posts pulled in seven years.
168 posted on 11/02/2005 4:41:51 PM PST by js1138 (Great is the power of steady misrepresentation.)
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To: js1138
Lots of multi-year FReepers have crashed on these threads. Your first clue is getting two or more posts pulled in one day.

I had one post pulled, #64. And you can read everything I wrote in #64 as quoted by another poster in #117. I didn't write post #57, I just responded to it. That the mods didn't pull #117 as well should be your first clue.

169 posted on 11/02/2005 5:42:46 PM PST by Rightwing Conspiratr1 (Lock-n-load!)
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To: Rightwing Conspiratr1

I'm just going by your behavior -- adding no information to the thread, just complaining that not everyone agrees with you.

If you want to overturn 150 years of biology, hit the books and learn what biology teaches.


170 posted on 11/02/2005 5:47:07 PM PST by js1138 (Great is the power of steady misrepresentation.)
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To: PatrickHenry
...but in addition, it has formed a new, separate channel...

Which could happen rapidly (by erosion); just look at Mount St. Helens; Grand Canyon Explanans.

171 posted on 11/02/2005 6:35:23 PM PST by Doctor Stochastic (Vegetabilisch = chaotisch ist der Charakter der Modernen. - Friedrich Schlegel)
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To: King Prout

"They Light Up My Life"?


172 posted on 11/02/2005 6:35:54 PM PST by Doctor Stochastic (Vegetabilisch = chaotisch ist der Charakter der Modernen. - Friedrich Schlegel)
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To: Doctor Stochastic

um...
thanks for putting that damnable whining ballad in my head.


173 posted on 11/02/2005 6:38:40 PM PST by King Prout (many accuse me of being overly literal... this would not be a problem if many were not under-precise)
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To: All
For a good summary of what this litigation is all about, it's useful to read the opening statements of both the plaintiffs' lawyer and the lawyer for the defense. They're both in one transcript file, but easily located with these links:

Trial transcript: plaintiffs' opening statement. Excerpt:

Eighteen years ago, the United States Supreme Court, in Edwards versus Aguillard, held that public schools could not teach students creation science because that proposition's core concept of a supernatural creator is religious, not scientific, and therefore violates the establishment clause of the First Amendment to the United States Constitution. The Court recognized that the teaching of creation science was motivated by a religious and cultural agenda, not the improvement of scientific education.

What we will prove at this trial is that the Dover board policy has the same characteristics and the same constitutional defects as the creation science policy struck down in Edwards. You will hear testimony from members of the Dover community, these parents, teachers, administrators, and board members, about how this change to the curriculum came to be.

Board members announced their interest in the topic of evolution in starkly religious terms. They looked for a book that could provide a religious alternative to evolution, and they found one in Of Pandas and People.

They changed the science curriculum to advance a specific religious viewpoint, and in doing so, they ignored accepted scientific knowledge, failed to avail themselves of the advice of established scientific organizations, and ignored their own science teachers who opposed the change to the science curriculum.

They did everything you would do if you wanted to incorporate a religious topic in science class and cared nothing about its scientific validity. And we will show that the members of the school board that passed this policy expressed their desire to teach creationism over and over and over again. That's their word, "creationism."

Transcript: Defendants' opening statement. Excerpt:

Now, there's no question, Your Honor, that this final result was worked out through a contentious policy-making process that has led some to liken making legislation to making sausage, a process that involved, at times, heated argument by members of the public, members of the board, false charges and intemperate remarks. But the evidence will show that the consistent goal of the board, as a whole, was to pursue what they believed to be a legitimate educational purpose and to comply with the law.

Alan Bonsell is a perfect example. He came to the board without any background in education of the law, just a sincere desire to serve his fellow citizens. By virtue of his personal reading, he was aware of intelligent design theory and that 300 or so scientists had signed a statement indicating that biologists were exaggerating claims for the theory.

He had read about the famous Piltdown man hoax. He had an interest in creationism. He wondered whether it could be discussed in the classroom. Those questions are not evidence of unconstitutional conduct, Your Honor. They were quite legitimate.


174 posted on 11/02/2005 6:55:08 PM PST by PatrickHenry (Reality is a harsh mistress. No rationality, no mercy)
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To: narby
The Muslims in particular, since their demographics are growing,

We can put a stop to that with some sensible immigration reform.

A lot of people treat current demographic trends as if they are facts of nature, when in reality they are a result of conscious social policy. In this case, really bad immigration policy.

175 posted on 11/02/2005 7:01:18 PM PST by curiosity (Cronyism is not conservative)
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To: USConstitutionBuff
Jefferson had absolutely nothing to do with the writing or the ratification of the Constitution, so I don't see why his views on the meaning of the 1st Amendment should carry much weight.
176 posted on 11/02/2005 7:03:50 PM PST by curiosity (Cronyism is not conservative)
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To: PatrickHenry
An' he knowed his Grampaw weren't no monkey!
177 posted on 11/02/2005 7:08:42 PM PST by VadeRetro (Liberalism is a cancer on society. Creationism is a cancer on conservatism.)
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To: VadeRetro

He probably posts here as one of the trolls.


178 posted on 11/02/2005 7:10:46 PM PST by PatrickHenry (Reality is a harsh mistress. No rationality, no mercy)
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To: PatrickHenry
He had read about the famous Piltdown man hoax. He had an interest in creationism. He wondered whether it could be discussed in the classroom. Those questions are not evidence of unconstitutional conduct, Your Honor. They were quite legitimate.

Sounds suspiciously like the "philosopher's defense" against a charge of soliciting:

"But Your Honor, I had no actual interest in a bl@w job; I had read about fellatio, I was curious about it. So I approach the young woman, who, ahhh, turned out to be an undercover agent for the police, and I attempted to engage her in a conversation, .... I mean, a discussion (yeah, that's the ticket!) on the subject. My inquires regarding price were completely of an intellectual nature; they were a philosophical inquiry, with absolutely no sexual content whatsoever. Those questions are not evidence of unconstitutional illegal conduct, Your Honor. They were quite legitimate."

[Judge, to defendant]: "Then why did you have your pants around your ankles while you were having this alleged "philosophical inquiry"?"

[Defendant]: "Ahhhhh, er....., ah ah giant wasp had just flown up my pant leg at that very moment, and I was afraid it might sting me..... and besides, I was taking Oxycontin at the time......"

How gullible does the defense team think this judge is?

179 posted on 11/02/2005 7:18:28 PM PST by longshadow
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To: USConstitutionBuff; Rightwing Conspiratr1; PatrickHenry
Gentlemen:

Whether or not Jefferson's view on the 1st Amendment is correct is simply not relevant to this discussion. Regardless of whether the Founders really did intend to build a "wall of separation" (a view which I reject), they clearly did intend to prevent the government from being more partial toward some Christian sect than others.

By teaching ID, the government is bestowing favor upon those Christian sects the teach that the evolution of man required the miraculous intervention of God.

There are plenty of devout Christians ,including me, who believe that divine providence was enough to effect man's evolution. If a government school teaches its students the false claim that there is scientific evidence for miraculous intervention (which is, in effect, what ID claims), then the government school is showing partiality to the sects that hold to this religious doctrine over those, like mine, that reject it.

180 posted on 11/02/2005 7:20:02 PM PST by curiosity (Cronyism is not conservative)
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To: Servant of the 9
You forgot mankind as a form of causality.
181 posted on 11/02/2005 7:43:44 PM PST by cornelis (Fecisti nos ad te.)
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To: King Prout

It was either an Earworm or a Gravid Earwig.


182 posted on 11/02/2005 7:53:21 PM PST by Doctor Stochastic (Vegetabilisch = chaotisch ist der Charakter der Modernen. - Friedrich Schlegel)
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To: PatrickHenry
"Even if I agreed with the questionable premise that legislation can be invalidated under the Establishment Clause on the basis of its motivation alone, without regard to its effects, I would still find no justification for today's decision. The Louisiana legislators... each of whom had sworn to support the Constitution, were well aware of the potential Establishment Clause problems and considered that aspect of the legislation with great care. After seven hearings and several months of study, resulting in substantial revision of the original proposal, they approved the Act overwhelmingly and specifically articulated the secular purpose they meant it to serve. Although the record contains abundant evidence of the sincerity of that purpose (the only issue pertinent to this case), the Court today holds, essentially on the basis of "its visceral knowledge regarding what must have motivated the legislators,"...that the members of the Louisiana Legislature knowingly violated their oaths and then lied about it. ....the question of its constitutionality cannot rightly be disposed of on the gallop, by impugning the motives of its supporters." - Justice Scalia

Same crap going on in this case. Liberals and communists running amok in the courts trying Christians for thought crimes and devising (un)extra-constitutional tests.

183 posted on 11/03/2005 12:36:31 AM PST by Rightwing Conspiratr1 (Lock-n-load!)
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To: narby
Where is it I should send my tithes to the Church of the Grand Flying Spaghetti Monster?

Your local Olive Garden?

184 posted on 11/03/2005 12:48:16 AM PST by dread78645 (Sorry Mr. Franklin, We couldn't keep it.)
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To: Doctor Stochastic

whichever - it was a nasty thing to do to me, you meanie.


185 posted on 11/03/2005 2:44:44 AM PST by King Prout (many accuse me of being overly literal... this would not be a problem if many were not under-precise)
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To: curiosity

essentially: "ID favors Genesis Literalists and "special" Creationists over, say, Catholic and mainstream Protestant acceptance of natural evolution as God's chosen mechanism. It is thus *definitely* unconstitutional, no matter how one slices the 1st Amendment."?

interesting angle. thanks.


186 posted on 11/03/2005 2:51:26 AM PST by King Prout (many accuse me of being overly literal... this would not be a problem if many were not under-precise)
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To: PatrickHenry
I think Of Pandas and People might be ruled an unacceptable text for science classes on the basis that both the plaintiff's and the defense's expert witnesses found it to be full of errors.

We can hope.

187 posted on 11/03/2005 4:46:10 AM PST by js1138 (Great is the power of steady misrepresentation.)
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To: curiosity
Because Madison based the 1st Amendment on Jefferson's writings of the bill of rights for the State of Virginia. Don't you know this?
188 posted on 11/03/2005 5:41:29 AM PST by USConstitutionBuff
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To: longshadow; Rightwing Conspiratr1
Based on post 79 to this thread, I'm starting to think Rightwing Conspiratr1 is really a master satirist, skillfully lampooning some of the more zany aspects of our creationist friends' postings.

Looked at in that way, he's actually pretty funny.

Keep those posts coming, Rightwing Conspiratr1!

189 posted on 11/03/2005 6:14:28 AM PST by Gumlegs
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To: Gumlegs

isn't this trial over yet placemarker?


190 posted on 11/03/2005 6:47:24 AM PST by js1138 (Great is the power of steady misrepresentation.)
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To: PatrickHenry; Junior

New thread???

http://www.pennlive.com/printer/printer.ssf?/base/news/1131013552327600.xml&coll=1


191 posted on 11/03/2005 6:51:36 AM PST by js1138 (Great is the power of steady misrepresentation.)
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To: PatrickHenry; Junior

New MIKE ARGENTO ping

http://ydr.com/story/doverbiology/92856/printer/


192 posted on 11/03/2005 6:56:04 AM PST by js1138 (Great is the power of steady misrepresentation.)
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To: curiosity
[The Muslims in particular, since their demographics are growing,]

We can put a stop to that with some sensible immigration reform.

You're going to solve a high birth rate with immigration reform? Ok.

193 posted on 11/03/2005 8:57:32 AM PST by narby (Hillary! The Wicked Witch of the Left)
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To: js1138
She looked at "Of Pandas and People," one of intelligent design's holy texts. She didn't actually read it. She looked at it and concluded it was science, apparently because it has a picture of a panda on the cover and we all know that all your best science books have pandas on the cover.

LOL!

194 posted on 11/03/2005 9:06:24 AM PST by RightWingNilla
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To: RightWingNilla

Is everybody working today?


195 posted on 11/03/2005 9:19:05 AM PST by js1138 (Great is the power of steady misrepresentation.)
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To: js1138
Is everybody working today?

It does seem kinda slow...

196 posted on 11/03/2005 9:31:12 AM PST by RightWingNilla
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To: Gumlegs

You are partially correct, you just have everything backwards.


197 posted on 11/03/2005 1:47:17 PM PST by Rightwing Conspiratr1 (Lock-n-load!)
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To: js1138

Just got home, sat down, and read this. I'm still laughing. Thanks.


198 posted on 11/03/2005 4:29:20 PM PST by ml1954 (NOT the disruptive troll seen frequently on CREVO threads)
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To: USConstitutionBuff
Because Madison based the 1st Amendment on Jefferson's writings of the bill of rights for the State of Virginia.

That's streching it. Madison got the idea for a Bill of Rights from the fact that Virginia had a Bill of Rights, yes. And yes, Jefferson helped write Virginia's Bill. But that's as far as ot goes. Virginia's bill is not the same as the Federal Bill, and Jefferson had zero input in either the drafting or the ratification of the Federal Bill.

As such, I don't see how his opinion on any part of the 1st Amendment carries any weight whatsoever, especially since his opinion is at odds with the rest of the founders.

199 posted on 11/03/2005 5:25:03 PM PST by curiosity (Cronyism is not conservative)
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To: longshadow

200


200 posted on 11/03/2005 5:25:32 PM PST by PatrickHenry (Reality is a harsh mistress. No rationality, no mercy)
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