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The Barbarians at the Gates of Paris
City Journal ^ | Autumn 2002 | Theodore Dalrymple

Posted on 11/03/2005 4:44:08 PM PST by mojito

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To: HiJinx

immigration bump


101 posted on 11/04/2005 12:09:36 AM PST by rmlew (Sedition and Treason are both crimes, not free speech.)
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To: mojito

I certainly hope Bush isn't making plans to spend billions more of our dollars attempting to rescue these cretins from the consequences of the crappy world they've built for themselves.


102 posted on 11/04/2005 12:10:52 AM PST by Hank Rearden (Never allow anyone who could only get a government job attempt to tell you how to run your life.)
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To: Cronos
Mexican culture is Christian, not slammie like the maghrebins (nord-akfrikans).
1. It is both Catholic and native.
2. They area different civilization, regardless of their religion.
They may be one with you in belief, but they are not Westerners.
103 posted on 11/04/2005 12:11:33 AM PST by rmlew (Sedition and Treason are both crimes, not free speech.)
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To: Cronos

Trust me, no one is overlooking the Islamist aspect of France's situation but it goes far beyond Islamism's creeping influence.

In fact, one of the problems is that these thugs are distinctly NON-Islamic in their daily lives and that more of them are turning into more 'upright' terrorists. You know the kind, like the Nation of Islam--no drugs(at least no use or sales to the faithful) and more disciplined behavior--but hatred and racism at the base of the ideology. But these Muslims in France will be much more dangerous.

I just think it's way too easy to just blame these riots and France's problems on Islam vs. the West, when I see some of these SAME cultural issues(but to a lesser extent, or at least less separated) in the US with NON-MUSLIM underclass culture.

In fact, what he describes in the Zone could just as easily be blacks or Latinos in the "inner city" and the 'extremists' who are willing to provide meaning and discipline would be like Nation of Islam types or god knows what other garbage here. (whereas in France, radical Islamist terrorist beliefs are gaining more and more adherents--as they are here.) THe intiial problem (underclass pathology, multiculti inability to confront) is not with Islam specifically. But it is Islam that will make this terrible situation become fatal for Europe.


104 posted on 11/04/2005 12:12:07 AM PST by Skywalk (Transdimensional Jihad!)
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To: rmlew

Oh, I agree, they don't belong to the broad, Western Culture, but I think any non-slammie culture is a live-and-let-live kind which can be tolerated. Non-Western cultures would include the Russian, the Chinese, the Indian, the Latin American, the JApanese etc.


105 posted on 11/04/2005 12:29:37 AM PST by Cronos (Never forget 9/11. Restore Hagia Sophia!)
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To: Skywalk

Thanks for your articulate comments.


106 posted on 11/04/2005 12:37:47 AM PST by little jeremiah
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To: Windsong
Newsflash: this already happened. Thousands were killed. We have already figured it out, and we're fighting it in Iraq, Afghanistan, etc

News flash, both parties in our government and the MSM constantly tell us that Islam is the great religion of peace and dignity and that the terrorists are a minority.

Newsflash: we are still supporting the KLA, giving money to the PLO, arming Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Jordan and a score of other Islamic states. We are still keeping the Serbs out of their ancestral homeland of Kosovo and making the Israelies walk down the Road Map to Suicide.

We have a long, long way to go before we wake up, stop supporting the "good" Islamics. Close our borders and form the real alliances we need to.

107 posted on 11/04/2005 1:17:50 AM PST by jb6 (The Atheist/Pagan mind, a quandary wrapped in egoism and served with a side order of self importance)
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To: Cronos
911 was a shock but the entropy is to great...now a nuke and well, the slammies have signed their own death warrants...not to mention what will happen in the streets of America.
108 posted on 11/04/2005 1:20:18 AM PST by jb6 (The Atheist/Pagan mind, a quandary wrapped in egoism and served with a side order of self importance)
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To: Skywalk
But it is Islam that will make this terrible situation become fatal for Europe.

The US has experienced and handled racist riots in the past. Riots alone are not a lethal problem to western nations. Granted in Los Angeles we had to call in Marines from Camp Pendleton. The National French Police force is armed with machine guns and they have armored cars. They have the weapons to handle the situation. Personally I was greeted by two machine gun wielding representatives of the National French Police Force in the Nice airport last year. The immediate question is will French politicians put their petty political ambitions ahead of national security issues ? We already know that leftist within the US, will not. What France and Western nations definitely cannot handle is a collusion or melding of Islamic Extremists with our traditional disgruntled occasionally rioting populations. The US does have racist problems within certain communities. For example, within the past year I personally experienced racism against whites from blacks in Cincinnati. A black waitress refused to serve me and my white partner. She then immediately served a couple of blacks who had just entered. Then the white cook walked out and asked if we had been served yet. We replied no, and he just grunted something in disgust and walked away. Me and my partner immediately got up and left. I did not mind it at all since I was not looking forward to a 'Steak and Shake'. It is not what I consider a healthy meal anyway but it was late at night. We ended up in a 'Waffle House' and I ordered a breakfast and ended up with a plate of grease.

109 posted on 11/04/2005 1:38:16 AM PST by justa-hairyape
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To: justa-hairyape
Oops. Logic error. The following sentence should read.

We already know that leftist within the US, will.

110 posted on 11/04/2005 1:44:47 AM PST by justa-hairyape
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To: mojito

Thank you for posting this. I have been worried about this sort of situation for awhile. I have a friend who was born in Paris but is now a US citizen. I am interested in finding out what she thinks as she still has relatives and friends in France.


111 posted on 11/04/2005 2:16:59 AM PST by Diva
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To: Tommy-the-pissed-off-Brit

I agree! This Isamist attempts at taking over Europe is not new. We truly are in a fight of civilizations.

An excellant article in refference to this is written in the Washington Times by Tony Blankley.

http://www.washtimes.com/national/20050912-122024-9420r.htm


112 posted on 11/04/2005 2:53:18 AM PST by Zeke 1 (True Patriot's dad. In memory of ET1 Ronald J. Hemenway, Pentagon 9/11/2001)
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To: Skywalk
Nation of Islam types or god knows what other garbage here

This is not an attack on you but I find that a big part of our problem is many of us, in our darker moments, think of the under-class as garbage. It could be that I have mis-interpreted your remark and I apologize in advance it I have. But, no matter how horrid people act they are still humans with souls and they are loved by God.

Other than being a very good article about the specifics of the current situation in France the article is marvelous in that it shows how history repeats itself over and over again. When I read about the "cheap labor" being brought in to France to solve a temporary labor shortage I was reminded of Abraham, Joseph and the Hebrews in Egypt.

I wonder how many times a government has found itself in a similar situation? Look at what happened to the poor Egyptians who thought they could continue to "use" their cheap labor and didn't they complain over and over again about the Jewish tribes over-populating Egypt? As I recall there was a little "plan" devised by Pharaoh to "fix" the problem, which of course didn't work. The big difference, I guess, is that the Hebrews wanted to leave Egypt. I'm sure there are French citizens who will soon begin, if they haven't already, to consider paying the North Africans to return to the "old country."

Don't Muslims consider themselves to be descendants of Abraham as well? I wonder how they read and interpret the Covenant made by God with Abraham.

113 posted on 11/04/2005 3:10:52 AM PST by Diva
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To: mojito
Islamist proselytism flourishes in the prisons of France (where 60 percent of the inmates are of immigrant origin), as it does in British prisons; and it takes only a handful of Zacharias Moussaouis to start a conflagration.

This is happening here.....the good old US. The hammer needs to come down. HARD! France is lost through it's own malfeasance. They fowled their own nest. We must take a lesson from their own self-destruction.

114 posted on 11/04/2005 3:54:04 AM PST by jslade
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To: mojito

Sooner or later, what goes on in France will become our problem. They are only doing the cooking.


115 posted on 11/04/2005 4:40:22 AM PST by Graymatter
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To: dangus

Not an accurate perception. Poland is a better model.


116 posted on 11/04/2005 4:40:58 AM PST by The Cuban
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To: mojito

Concealed carry now.


117 posted on 11/04/2005 4:43:07 AM PST by stocksthatgoup (Polls = Proof that when the MSM want yo"ur opinion they will give it to you.)
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To: Deo volente

verily..


118 posted on 11/04/2005 4:52:24 AM PST by rahbert
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To: mojito; Yardstick; Lando Lincoln; quidnunc; .cnI redruM; Valin; King Prout; SJackson; dennisw; ...

Revisiting the 3 years old article by Theodore Dalrymple that provides an excellent explanation of what is going on in Paris now. Prescient and disturbing!

This ping list is not author-specific for articles I'd like to share. Some for the perfect moral clarity, some for provocative thoughts; or simply interesting articles I'd hate to miss myself. (I don't have to agree with the author all 100% to feel the need to share an article.) I will try not to abuse the ping list and not to annoy you too much, but on some days there is more of the good stuff that is worthy of attention. You can see the list of articles I pinged to lately  on  my page.
You are welcome in or out, just freepmail me (and note which PING list you are talking about). Besides this one, I keep 2 separate PING lists for my favorite authors Victor Davis Hanson and Orson Scott Card.  

119 posted on 11/04/2005 4:52:48 AM PST by Tolik
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To: mojito

Bump for later copy.


120 posted on 11/04/2005 4:55:31 AM PST by Renfield (If Gene Tracy was the entertainment at your senior prom, YOU might be a redneck...)
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To: Tolik

It's a good thing that the French stayed out of Iraq and didn't make their Arab Street angry.


121 posted on 11/04/2005 5:03:16 AM PST by .cnI redruM (Because change is not something you talk into existence.)
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To: mojito
Demographic projections (though projections are not predictions) suggest that their descendants will number 35 million before this century is out, more than a third of the likely total population of France.

If they become a third of the population, that's quite a voting block.

122 posted on 11/04/2005 5:11:50 AM PST by Dr. Scarpetta
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To: mojito
very good but disturbing article
We must keep up the good fight HERE
123 posted on 11/04/2005 5:46:18 AM PST by apackof2 (There are 2 theories to arguing with a woman... neither works. Will Rogers)
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To: Cronos
My guess is that if this anarchy continues, old Europe will see the rise of new "Hitlers" who will put a stop to playing patty cake with the mohammedans.
124 posted on 11/04/2005 5:51:51 AM PST by Cautor
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To: crowman

I like the sound of water swirling in the bowl.


125 posted on 11/04/2005 5:52:19 AM PST by Cautor
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To: CarrotAndStick

Thanks. I guess I'm not surprised.


126 posted on 11/04/2005 5:53:07 AM PST by Cautor
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To: Tolik

Thanks for the ping.


127 posted on 11/04/2005 5:59:27 AM PST by GOPJ
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To: fallujah-nuker
We may have a "dog" in this fight but we should let the French one die. Let them be the sacrifice that wakes people up. Let them suffer the consequences of their actions and inactions.

I am enjoying the irony of this and wish to see it taken to its final conclusion. We WILL fight to help the countries of Europe, but France must die first.
128 posted on 11/04/2005 6:20:36 AM PST by myself6 (Nazi = socialist , democrat=socialist , therefore democrat = Nazi)
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To: mojito
exemplified by a story that an acquaintance told me. . . my informant

My acquaintance becomes my informant strikes me as odd.

129 posted on 11/04/2005 6:59:21 AM PST by razorback-bert
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To: mojito

A very good read.


130 posted on 11/04/2005 7:06:12 AM PST by tonycavanagh
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To: The Cuban

Except the clergy in Poland is Catholic. The clergy in Mexico are Marxist stooges for the most part. (Although that is grossly unfair to several Godly men.) Catholics in Poland who choose to identify themselves as Catholic know what it means to be Catholic. A third no longer identify themselves as Catholic, and maybe a third are disaffected, but there are millions who know their faith and live by it devoutly.

Catholicism in Mexico, on the other hand, is largely a superstition clung to desperate, elderly, poor people. There is no morality in its teachings, just communitarianism and class resentment.


131 posted on 11/04/2005 7:13:58 AM PST by dangus
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To: Tolik

"More tourists (60 million a year) visit France than any country in the world by far."

That is about to change.


132 posted on 11/04/2005 7:17:00 AM PST by Arthur Wildfire! March ("Every time the court veers left, the people are overwhelmingly opposed." [Laura Ingraham])
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To: mojito
Several things struck me about the incident: the youths’ sense of invulnerability in broad daylight

Cockroaches don't seem to care when the lights are turned on in this day and age.

133 posted on 11/04/2005 7:23:00 AM PST by He Rides A White Horse (unite)
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To: dangus

"The local police chiefs were paid by results—by the crime rates in their areas of jurisdiction. The last thing they wanted was for policemen to go around finding and recording crime."

It's worse than I thought.


134 posted on 11/04/2005 7:25:43 AM PST by Arthur Wildfire! March ("Every time the court veers left, the people are overwhelmingly opposed." [Laura Ingraham])
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To: He Rides A White Horse

Some vermine get bold when the victim appears weak.


135 posted on 11/04/2005 7:27:31 AM PST by Arthur Wildfire! March ("Every time the court veers left, the people are overwhelmingly opposed." [Laura Ingraham])
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To: backhoe; goldstategop

This is a must read, IMHO. FRegards....


136 posted on 11/04/2005 7:30:56 AM PST by Arthur Wildfire! March ("Every time the court veers left, the people are overwhelmingly opposed." [Laura Ingraham])
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To: mojito

Thanks for the post. Bump...


137 posted on 11/04/2005 7:53:45 AM PST by eureka! (Hey Lefties: Only 3 and 1/4 more years of W. Hehehehe....)
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To: 308MBR
This service/information economy is like a fiat currency. Until a physical item is actually produced, true wealth does not increase...regardless of the Dow Jones.

*laugh* Which is why the economy has shrivelled since Rust Belt days, and we have 50% unemployment.

138 posted on 11/04/2005 8:07:51 AM PST by SedVictaCatoni (<><)
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To: mojito

BTTTT


139 posted on 11/04/2005 8:18:38 AM PST by dennisw (You shouldn't let other people get your kicks for you - Bob Dylan)
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To: mojito
They enjoy a far higher standard of living (or consumption) than they would in the countries of their parents’ or grandparents’ origin, even if they labored there 14 hours a day to the maximum of their capacity That's the problem in a nutshell. Thank you for posting.
140 posted on 11/04/2005 8:21:20 AM PST by Mel Gibson (Read the book, "Hatred's Kingdom" by Dore Gold)
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To: Pelham
That culture is largely pagan.

Mexico is mostly a pagan nation. With a veneer of Catholicism.

141 posted on 11/04/2005 8:53:14 AM PST by dennisw (You shouldn't let other people get your kicks for you - Bob Dylan)
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To: mojito
Dalrymple commenting on rap lyrics quoted just above:

"This vile rubbish receives accolades for its supposed authenticity: for in the multiculturalist’s mental world, in which the savages are forever noble, there is no criterion by which to distinguish high art from low trash. And if intellectuals, highly trained in the Western tradition, are prepared to praise such degraded and brutal pornography, it is hardly surprising that those who are not so trained come to the conclusion that there cannot be anything of value in that tradition. Cowardly multiculturalism thus makes itself the handmaiden of anti-Western extremism"

BTTT

142 posted on 11/04/2005 9:19:29 AM PST by Revolting cat! ("In the end, nothing explains anything.")
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To: Regulator
Bump for this thread, and bump for your reference to this book. Here's a link to the preface, with the image linked to the book on Amazon.

 

 

 

 


 

Preface to

The Camp of the Saints by Jean Raspail

Translated by Gerda Bikales*
1995

 

Published for the first time in 1973, Camp of the Saints is a novel that anticipates a situation which seems plausible today and foresees a threat that no longer seems unbelievable to anyone: it describes the peaceful invasion of France, and then of the West, by a third world burgeoned into multitudes. At all levels —global consciousness, governments, societies, and especially every person within himself— the question is asked belatedly: what's to be done?


143 posted on 11/04/2005 10:28:15 AM PST by ThePythonicCow (To err is human; to moo is bovine.)
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To: Diva; Skywalk
We must be better able to distinguish between who people are and what they do, and also distinguish between individuals and groups.

We are all creatures of God, as you note. When one of us performs an act of evil, we must not hesitate to resist and punish that act. When a group of people are inflicted with a cultural disease, such as leftism or radical islam or communism, we must resist with all our might, and not hesitate to condemn that diseased culture to the garbage heap of history.

144 posted on 11/04/2005 10:39:46 AM PST by ThePythonicCow (To err is human; to moo is bovine.)
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To: ThePythonicCow
I forgot to include a link to the Preface to he Camp of The Saints. It's at http://www.mnforsustain.org/camp_of_the_saints_preface_bikales_g.htm
145 posted on 11/04/2005 10:42:13 AM PST by ThePythonicCow (To err is human; to moo is bovine.)
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To: mojito
I see your Dalrymple, and raise you one Churchill.

Prescient, indeed.

"How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. The effects are apparent in many countries. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live. A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property; either as a child, a wife, or a concubine; must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men.

Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities. Thousands become the brave and loyal soldiers of the Queen; all know how to die; but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science, the science against which it had vainly struggled, the civilisation of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilisation of ancient Rome."

Sir Winston Churchill, from The River War, first edition, Vol. II, pages 248 50 (London: Longmans, Green & Co., 1899).

146 posted on 11/04/2005 11:22:30 AM PST by Disambiguator (Making accusations of racism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.)
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To: mojito
THE ZONE:

Rebel Fire - Out of the Gray Zone

In this place, and in the very near future, everyone is tracked everywhere by the State for their own good. Dreams and ambitions are given compulsory treatment. Spy cameras are everywhere and people are monitored, tracked and told everything they can and can’t do. Privacy is a thing of the past.

Even more frightening, the technology for this new Orwellian world is here today and being put in place now...

[excerpt:]

“Jeremy, do you need your meds adjusted?” his teacher asked, with a threat like a rattlesnake lying under the official concern in her voice. She looked down at an old-fashioned flat screen set into the desk beside her. “You haven't been to the Homeland Serenity Center for evaluation in three months.”

“I was checked by the HPG patrols last week,” he lied, looking straight at Phelps and ignoring the snickering stares of the other students.“They said my med levels are okay.”

HPG stood for “Health, Productivity, and Growth,” the slogan printed on the side of the Department of Homeland Serenity roving mental-health vans.

“I don’t show that check here.” Phelps made a show of consulting the screen again. Jeremy shrugged, using all his talent to paint innocence on his face. “They stopped me at Main last Tuesday. Did a chem-scan.” He was glad he had actually seen the patrol set up its checkpoint; on her screen she could verify that they’d done med checks when and where he claimed.

What he hoped she didn’t know was that he had dodged the check point. The HPGs were usually pretty easy to sneak away from. Just a few techs, some pharmcorp employees, maybe a draftee, maybe a couple of Golden Years Volunteer guards with pistols. No machine guns. No plasarmored troopers like Drug Enforcement, Firearms Elimination, Homeland Security, National Service, or the Forest Service mobile check-vans had.

The HPGs could do scary things to you if their scans indicated you’d gone total un-med. Or if you tried to run from them. But most people were glad for med-checks. Med-checks kept everybody peaceful and happy. So the HPG's weren’t alert for dodgers.

Phelps glared at Jeremy for a moment, then at the screen again. “I’ll assume a database glitch. For the moment.”

There were – everybody knew it – a lot of glitches in all the gigs of data. Sometimes the glitches could sink you...

http://www.rebelfirerock.com/RFChp1.pdf

147 posted on 11/04/2005 11:47:47 AM PST by Tucson_AZ
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To: Diva

I only consider the ideologies to be garbage and those that focus their admiration on the hatred and genocidal aspects of that particular ideology. I just didn't want to jog my memory for more names of 'movements' in this country.

Besides, PLENTY PLENTY of middle and even upper-class people have joined these types of movements and participated in the same hatred, irrationality and violence.

So, no, it wasn't a view of the underclass at all. I've BEEN there (economically-speaking) so it would be hard for me to have that view.


148 posted on 11/04/2005 11:47:56 AM PST by Skywalk (Transdimensional Jihad!)
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To: mojito

I predict that Europe will have another 1930s. But it will be even worse than last time. When the SHTF, the knee jerk reaction will be sort of a hyper fascism. And into the resulting melee, the Shanghai Cooperation Organization will surge.


149 posted on 11/04/2005 12:41:48 PM PST by GOP_1900AD (Stomping on "PC," destroying the Left, and smoking out faux "conservatives" - Take Back The GOP!)
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To: Cautor

We will follow suit if the PC morons who have so much admiration for Europe and the third world, continue to hold sway.


150 posted on 11/04/2005 12:42:51 PM PST by Eighth Square
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