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Seceding Seldom Succeeds, but Vermonters Try
The Christian Science Monitor ^ | 11-8-05

Posted on 11/08/2005 6:01:31 AM PST by Seizure

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I do not know whether these separtist groups have been under the radar, existing for a period of time, or whether more of these groups are being established to express disappointment and frustration with the government.
1 posted on 11/08/2005 6:01:32 AM PST by Seizure
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To: Seizure

We'll keep the land that Americans died protecting and preserving, but the VT liberals are free to secede...


2 posted on 11/08/2005 6:03:10 AM PST by wvobiwan (Proud Minuteman Project Volunteer - Secure borders, illegals OUT, no 'guest workers'!)
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To: Seizure
I think we will find that as long as they are 'opposed to Bush' they will be listened to, reported on, and encouraged.

If they happen to support property and gun rights, limited Federal government and 'freedom', they'll be vilified and condemned as wackos.

It's probably not the desire to secede, it's the agenda behind it that's interesting to the press.
3 posted on 11/08/2005 6:04:11 AM PST by Blueflag (Res ipsa loquitor)
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To: wvobiwan

I'd like to send Rob Reiner and company up there to get himout of California, so Arnold has half a chance to save it.

He isn't exactly what I am looking for, but he is all we have.


4 posted on 11/08/2005 6:06:16 AM PST by television is just wrong
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To: Seizure
we certainly have a right to disband from it

Sorry, y'all. Only Texas can legally do that.

5 posted on 11/08/2005 6:06:22 AM PST by grobdriver (Let the embeds check the bodies!)
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To: wvobiwan

Can we encourage NY, NJ, CT, ME, MA, & RI to go with them?


6 posted on 11/08/2005 6:08:52 AM PST by 70times7 (An open mind is a cesspool of thought)
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To: grobdriver
Only Texas can legally do that.
Interesting. What legally allows Texas while prohibiting the rest of us?

Cordially,
GE
7 posted on 11/08/2005 6:11:26 AM PST by GrandEagle
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To: wvobiwan

The majority of these separatists are Christian, conservative, or Libertarian.


8 posted on 11/08/2005 6:12:36 AM PST by Seizure (More medication, please...)
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To: Seizure
VT liberals
If memory serves me correct, they got a bit disturbed when we tried that.

Cordially,
GE
9 posted on 11/08/2005 6:12:48 AM PST by GrandEagle
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To: Seizure

As we say in South Carolina, "If at first you don't secede, try, try again!"


10 posted on 11/08/2005 6:13:30 AM PST by liberateUS
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To: Seizure
Revisit this:It's Time to Part Company
11 posted on 11/08/2005 6:14:14 AM PST by B.O. Plenty (Islam, liberalism and abortions are terminal..)
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To: grobdriver

I heard, that under Governor Bush, that Texas' right to secede was overturned in a little known piece of legislation.


12 posted on 11/08/2005 6:14:39 AM PST by Seizure (More medication, please...)
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To: Seizure

Yeah, tell that to the Confederacy. Seems they got whomped for that.


13 posted on 11/08/2005 6:14:52 AM PST by sandbar
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To: liberateUS

LOL


14 posted on 11/08/2005 6:15:39 AM PST by Seizure (More medication, please...)
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To: Blueflag
If they happen to support property and gun rights, limited Federal government and 'freedom', they'll be vilified and condemned as wackos.

It's usually hard to find anything good to say about liberal Vermont, but on gun rights, at least, they lead the nation.

15 posted on 11/08/2005 6:16:43 AM PST by flada (They don't have meetings about rainbows.)
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To: sandbar
True. Several states tried, and the northern union states took great issue with it.

Of course, Key West (Conch Republic) has beat Vermont to it.

16 posted on 11/08/2005 6:17:09 AM PST by Chanticleer (A free society is a place where it's safe to be unpopular. -- Adlai Stevenson)
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To: Seizure

Hey, Canada, we'll swap you the Leftist U.S. states for the Western Provinces! How 'bout it???


17 posted on 11/08/2005 6:17:51 AM PST by Savage Beast (The French secretly want to be aristocrats, repeat the Revolution, and get their heads chopped off.)
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To: sandbar

"Yeah, tell that to the Confederacy. Seems they got whomped for that."


Well, tell THAT to the Founding Fathers. They were the ultimate seapartists...good thing for us they were.

In fact one of the Founding Fathers (I cannot recall which one - no coffee yet), said that on occasion revolution is needed.

We were established as a Representative Republic. Those that wished to transfer power from the public to the government, via the mob, manipulated the citizens into accepting the falsehood that America is a Democracy.


18 posted on 11/08/2005 6:21:10 AM PST by Seizure (More medication, please...)
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To: Seizure

Does this mean that Bernie Sanders and Jumpin' Jim would be kicked out of the Senate as well?


19 posted on 11/08/2005 6:22:07 AM PST by theDentist (The Dems have put all their eggs in one basket-case: Howard "Belltower" Dean.)
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To: Seizure

Don't let the door hit you in the @$$ on the way out!


20 posted on 11/08/2005 6:24:50 AM PST by ConorMacNessa (HM/2 USN - 3rd Bn. Fifth Marines RVN 1969)
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To: Seizure
We were established as a Representative Republic.
We are so far from a Constitutionally Functioning government that it would be impossible to return. I'm just trying to figure out the best position to be in when it all washes out.

Cordially
GE
21 posted on 11/08/2005 6:26:42 AM PST by GrandEagle
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To: grobdriver
Sorry, y'all. Only Texas can legally do that.

600,000 Americans were slaughtered to set that precedent.

But don't get too smug, even though the other states' rights were usurped, they would happily kill any Texans who tried the same thing. In fact Texas already lost that war once.

22 posted on 11/08/2005 6:26:43 AM PST by Protagoras (To keep freedom, you must give it away)
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To: liberateUS
As we say in South Carolina, "If at first you don't secede, try, try again!"

Oh, did I forget to mention that Sherman march to the sea thing!
23 posted on 11/08/2005 6:26:59 AM PST by liberateUS
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To: Warthogtjm

"Don't let the door hit you in the (profanity) on the way out!"

I hope your referring to the separatists in Vermont. I did not say that I support separatism. I am merely conjecturing for the sake of debate.

If your are referring to me personally, extract that jarhead out of yours. lol


24 posted on 11/08/2005 6:28:54 AM PST by Seizure (More medication, please...)
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To: grobdriver

As a practical matter you're right - the Civil War saw to that, but it's a given that the Federal government was created and exists by consent of the various states, not the other way around.


25 posted on 11/08/2005 6:29:28 AM PST by Freedom4US
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To: GrandEagle; grobdriver
What legally allows Texas while prohibiting the rest of us?

The articles of annexation.

26 posted on 11/08/2005 6:31:14 AM PST by Paleo Conservative (Hey hey ho ho Andy Heyward's got to go!)
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To: theDentist
"Does this mean Bernie Sanders and Jumpin Jim' would be kicked out of the Senate as well."

Well, if seceding were a way to clean sweep Congress, I say we check out and get back together at a later date.

By the way, don't forget Howard Dean wouldn't be an American anymore...if he ever was.
27 posted on 11/08/2005 6:32:58 AM PST by Seizure (More medication, please...)
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To: Seizure
If they had any balls they would actually secede, not declare it or talk about it.

It could be simply done by people with courage.

Just ignore the Feds on every issue. Non-violently. No sending tax in. No receiving federal funds. No enforcement of federal regulations. No cooperation with the feds.

If they want the stuff done, let 'em do it. If they tell you you must do something as an elected official, resign.

Simply go your own way and let them put the manpower in there to do all their own bidding.

28 posted on 11/08/2005 6:33:12 AM PST by Protagoras (To keep freedom, you must give it away)
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To: Paleo Conservative
OK, Thanks. I was unaware of that.
I could make the case that there is nothing in our Constitution that would prevent a state from leaving, except the raw brute force of those who stayed. As we found out down here a while back.

I was unaware that Texas left that option documented when they joined.

Cordially,
GE
29 posted on 11/08/2005 6:35:53 AM PST by GrandEagle
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To: liberateUS
As we say in South Carolina, "If at first you don't secede, try, try again!"

Yup, that worked out real good last time...


30 posted on 11/08/2005 6:37:24 AM PST by AmericaUnited
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To: GrandEagle
Interesting. What legally allows Texas while prohibiting the rest of us?

Texas was its own country for a while. It gave up its sovereignty when it joined the Union, but reserved the right to leave. I don't believe that has changed, the Civil War notwithstanding. As such, Texas has considerably different circumstances than the rest of the states.

31 posted on 11/08/2005 6:41:31 AM PST by r9etb
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To: GrandEagle
Oops, let me revise.

Texas does not have the right to secede; however, it does retain the right to split itself up into as many as five different states if it so chooses. (see, e.g., this site.)

32 posted on 11/08/2005 6:45:57 AM PST by r9etb
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To: r9etb

"It gave up its sovereignty when it joined the Union, but reserved the right to leave..."

If Texas made the attempt, I don't think it would be allowed to leave. It contributes too much to the economy...not to mention all of the military bases located in the state.

Now if Rhode Island, Delaware, or some other insignificant state wanted to secede, I don't think anyone would be bothered by it. lol


33 posted on 11/08/2005 6:49:43 AM PST by Seizure (More medication, please...)
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To: r9etb
Thanks for the information.

Cordially,
GE
34 posted on 11/08/2005 6:58:23 AM PST by GrandEagle
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To: GrandEagle

"I'm just trying to figure out the best poition to be in when it all washes out."

I think the position would be that of grabbing your ankles or getting on all fours.

I do agree with the fact that America will not return to that of a constitutionally functioning Representative Republic. Most Americans are too lazy and weak...not to far removed from Romans in the fading days of the empire.


35 posted on 11/08/2005 7:03:00 AM PST by Seizure (More medication, please...)
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To: Seizure
Maybe we ought to try it for a grace period, say, 2008. We take all the NE liberal states, Illinois, California (or at least parts like San Francisco) and tell them that they can succeed for a trail grace period in 2008. During this time they cannot receive any Federal money (but they must continue to pay taxes), they cannot vote, cannot send reps or Senators to Congress...etc... Then after 2008, we revoke the grace period and deny the succession. Republicans win by a landslide in 2008.

Works for me!
36 posted on 11/08/2005 7:08:35 AM PST by AMHN
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To: GrandEagle
You might try Montana, at least as per this novel: The Third revolution
37 posted on 11/08/2005 7:17:08 AM PST by leoncaruthers
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To: Seizure

Sorry - I was indeed referring to the separatists.


38 posted on 11/08/2005 7:20:02 AM PST by ConorMacNessa (HM/2 USN - 3rd Bn. Fifth Marines RVN 1969)
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To: r9etb

So long as both the Congress and the State Legislature approves, any state can do that.


39 posted on 11/08/2005 7:21:35 AM PST by ops33 (Retired USAF Senior Master Sergeant)
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To: Seizure
Very few topics evoke intense emotions like this one. Most people immediately posture themselves into the position where they are defending the government that we currently have, and anyone who doesn't support them is the enemy. Those who are dismantling our beloved nation count on this response because it provides good people, (who normally would stop them) with a different enemy.
I love my country. My family (like many others) has sacrificed many family members from the Revolution to Vietnam, with many serving in both Gulf wars (fortunately we haven't lost any in the Gulf yet). I myself have served my time. By causing this "rally the wagons" mentality, our enemies have essentially free reign to do as they want. I long for our Republic where we enjoyed liberty not because the central government allows it, but because they were powerless to prevent it. Now we still enjoy relative freedom but it is much like living under a good king - times may be good, but you are still a subject. Back in the late 60's and early 70's when I grew up, the trap had been set already, but the electorate still could have regained control. It is too late now. I'm not sure what form our government will take after the metamorphosis is finished. I suspect it will be a mixture, sort of a democratic, socialist something, with the "electorate" given a choice between socialists so the illusion of liberty still exists.

Cordially,
GE
40 posted on 11/08/2005 7:22:22 AM PST by GrandEagle
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To: r9etb
it does retain the right to split itself up into as many as five different states if it so chooses.

But which one would get the rights to the Alamo?

41 posted on 11/08/2005 7:34:09 AM PST by Sarajevo
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To: GrandEagle

In answer to your question: The treaty between the Republic of Texas and the United States which admitted Texas to the Union, different terms than the admission of other states.


42 posted on 11/08/2005 7:54:26 AM PST by The_Reader_David (And when they behead your own people in the wars which are to come, then you will know. . .)
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To: The_Reader_David
In answer to your question:
Thanks, I did not know that until today.

Have a great day,
GE
43 posted on 11/08/2005 7:59:12 AM PST by GrandEagle
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To: ops33

Hmm, if they get state legislature approval, I say Congress should let VT go: good bye Socialist Congressman, Patrick Leahy and 'jumpin' Jim'.

It's a small thing, but it makes our majorities larger. We could let MN go too, but the rest of the blue states we keep (though we can encourage California
to let the Bay Area seceed from the state and the Union, and we could let a few Indian reservations that vote demonRAT have full sovereignty.)


44 posted on 11/08/2005 8:00:58 AM PST by The_Reader_David (And when they behead your own people in the wars which are to come, then you will know. . .)
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To: GrandEagle

I recall watching a improptu press conference with President Bush. In response to a question asked by a reporter, President Bush quipped,

"I wish this were a dictatorship and I was the dictator."

Hmm...


45 posted on 11/08/2005 8:07:47 AM PST by Seizure (More medication, please...)
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To: Seizure

Hmm... indeed!


46 posted on 11/08/2005 8:14:28 AM PST by GrandEagle
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To: Seizure

>>>Well, tell THAT to the Founding Fathers. They were the ultimate seapartists...good thing for us they were. >>>

I was being sarcastic.


47 posted on 11/08/2005 10:13:53 AM PST by sandbar
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To: sandbar

"I was being sarcastic."

My apology. I do not always pick up on sarcasm in print. Especially given the fact that there are people who think along those lines. Without the benefit of vocal inflection, it is hard to tell.


48 posted on 11/08/2005 11:23:29 AM PST by Seizure (More medication, please...)
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To: Sarajevo
That's why Texas will never be divided...each of the resulting states would demand the Alamo.

Maybe the US can trade Canada Vermont for Alberta. Rename Alberta "Vermont" (it does have some green mountains) and rename Vermont "Alberta" and no one will be the wiser.

49 posted on 11/08/2005 11:36:43 AM PST by Verginius Rufus
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To: GrandEagle

I couldn't agree more. Whatever principles true conservatives cling to, principles that will not be compromised, will be relegated to the bench. One, because by and large, people to the left of genuine conservatives have no principles. Two, moderates and "compassionate" conservatives will surrender theirs for the good of the party, even if that means putting the Republican party on life support.

Yes, I find it humorous that there are conservatives who deride and laugh at liberals who launch personal attacks due to lack of sound, factual argument. Then on the other hand, attack fellow conservatives who shine a light on serious (or dangerous) breeches within the Republican party.

Lately, I have been called a "dummie" and a "troll" by "GloriaJane".

Read the posts exchanged between herself and me under the article: Given the mainstream media, it's a wonder Republicans win anything... (the title is close enough...I think you may have posted responses there).


50 posted on 11/08/2005 11:38:16 AM PST by Seizure (More medication, please...)
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