Posted on 11/12/2005 5:35:28 PM PST by Salvation
Please notify me via FReepmail if you would like to be added to or taken off the Catholic Discussion Ping List.
Any thoughts from you out there? Especially from the states of Virginia, New Jersey Ohio, and California................
**There is a significant distinction between "faithful" Catholics and mere "culturally identified" Catholics. The former tend to be conservative in their voting patterns, while the latter are often liberal.**
We call the latter group CINOs Catholics in Name Only
Sorry, folks, I forgot that link wants you to sign in.
What will it take to wake the CINO's up?
They will vote Dim and then when you ask them why the only reason they give is that their grandparents did.
Such a ridiculous reason.
My dad, a staunch Catholic, now 93, still votes dimocrat. Drives me nuts!
Guy is a total nut case ~ you simply cannot make that sort of argument, Catholic or otherwise, because it comes down to saying those guilty of bloodshed should live, and the innocent should die.
You want a candidate for the Beast who is going to get tossed into the pit, this guy is it.
I don't trust him and neither should anyone else.
Still, he appears to have attracted Virginia's Catholic vote.
We must have a bunch of "cultural Catholics".
There are a lot of REAL Catholics there too, especially in the Arlington diocese.
I was very disappointed that a dimocrat got elected.
Those folks are fewer and far between. I think there a lot of folks who call themselves Catholic who only go into churches for weddings, funerals, baptisms and first communions. Those folks are more likely to cast their votes dependent upon other circumstances, like their incomes and whether or not they belong to a union - their religion has little, if anything to do with it.
There are, however, a small number of very liberal, but nonetheless religious Catholics. These are the folks who consider Saddam Hussein more tolerable than occupying Iraq. They consider abortion bad, but are more interested in affordable housing for the homeless and raising the minimum wage. They trust the government so much they'd like to see medicine socialized. Quite frankly, these people frighten me, and even more frightening is if you open up the Church doors of any random parish you'll more than likely find one of these loons is the DRE.
Tuesday, November 8 2005
Relevant Profiles: United States |
Divided Catholics. Catholics comprise a vital, albeit highly fragmented, component of the electorate:
There is a significant distinction between 'faithful' Catholics and mere 'culturally identified' Catholics. The former tend to be conservative in their voting patterns, while the latter are often liberal.
Recent presidential elections indicate the degree to which Catholics are now swing voters:
These results underline the fact that the Catholic vote is deeply split between the major parties. The diversity of the group is one of the challenges any candidate faces when making special appeals to Catholics.
Traditional affiliation. Catholics were once a key constituency of the New Deal coalition that anchored the Democratic Party (see UNITED STATES: Liberals capable of political revival - October 10, 2005). Many Catholics were from immigrant families, lived in inner cities and identified with the labour movement. Therefore, economic status and ethnicity largely underpinned Catholic support for the Democrats.
Republican inroads. The splintering of the Catholic vote began in the 1970s when Democratic presidential nominee George McGovern appealed to abortion-rights advocates and the Supreme Court issued the Roe vs Wade decision legalising abortion (see UNITED STATES: Can the conservative ascendancy last? - July 25, 2005). By the 1980s, Republicans actively appealed to anti-abortion voters and more Catholics shifted their political allegiance. Indeed, from 1980 to 2000 only one Democratic presidential candidate (Bill Clinton in 1996) secured a majority of the Catholic vote.
Beyond religion. Nonetheless, religious beliefs are not the dominant influence on the voting behaviour of most Catholics. The Church hierarchy is usually reluctant to stipulate its voting preferences. Moreover, even when certain bishops do offer such guidance, few Catholic voters are prepared to listen.
Economic factors. The decline of the traditional Catholic association with the Democrats is also due to economic trends and population shifts. Although their parents or grandparents were of the immigrant underclass, many non-Hispanic Catholics have achieved economic success, moved to the suburbs and become Independents or Republicans. Catholics are now more often educated, wealthy, suburban and employed in the higher professions than ever before. Many of these Catholics care more about tax cuts than about the minimum wage and welfare.
Independent-minded. Nonetheless, the shift away from the Democratic Party has not led most Catholics to embrace the Republicans. Like the rest of the electorate, Catholics have become increasingly independent of the main parties. Among the minority of Catholics that have retained strong party affiliations, white Catholics have tended to support Republican candidates, while new immigrants -- particularly Hispanics -- have forged links with Democrats.
White House strategy. Bush has courted the support of religious Catholics:
Liberal backlash? Yet, polls suggest that Bush's conservative politics and opposition to stem cell research have hurt his standing among many moderate and liberal Catholics. Despite the splintering of the Catholic vote, many Catholics retain some of their old Democratic Party impulses, particularly strong support for Social Security and mildly redistributive economic policies (see UNITED STATES: Republican fissures imperil Bush agenda - October 19, 2005). Furthermore, Bush already had the support of conservative Catholics when he became president. His policies have retained that support, but not broadened his appeal among the bulk of moderate Catholics.
Identity politics. Many surveys fail to make a distinction between religious and 'secular Catholics', and lump together regular churchgoers with those who simply identify culturally as Catholics. Polls that recognise this difference show that Bush has strong support among the 'faithful', which suggests that his effort to court religious Catholics has been successful. However, the much larger population of Catholic identifiers who are not persuaded by the Church's positions on political issues may create problems for the president's party.
Future trends. Recent elections suggest the Republicans are ascendant among Catholic voters, but demographic trends portend an eventual reversal. White, Catholic churchgoers are more reliably Republican than ever. However, except for Cuban-Americans, new Catholic immigrants are solidly Democratic. Affluent white Catholics are heavy voters, while Hispanic Catholics are a much faster growing portion of the population -- but have notoriously low turnout rates. Therefore, both parties are attempting to appeal to new Hispanic immigrants, who may be the key to capturing a majority of the Catholic vote in future elections.
Is this about Anglo Catholics, or all Catholics?
The first part talked about the difference in voting patterns between different groups of Catholics so I think it is about all Catholics.
+
That introduces a lot of noise into the equation. Bush did very well, uniquely well, among Hispanics, in 2004, although much of that was due to Protestant Hispanics, about 40% of Hispanics voters in the US, yes 40%. Amoung Hispanic Catholics, Bush maybe got about 25%. With Protestant Hispanics, it was more like 60%.
So true!
Well, I'm a Virginian and a Catholic, so I guess I qualify.
The big news in Virginia politics is the election of a Democratic governor. One who happens to be Roman Catholic. His name is Tim Kaine, and he did spend time as a missionary in I think it was Honduras.
I noticed another poster saying that he's pro-abortion: to my knowledge, he's not pro-abortion, and as LT Governor was working with conservative Republican Senators to introduce pro-life legislation. (the LT Governor in Virginia can't introduce legislation on his own). From what I can tell, his perspective on the issue is that abortion is legal and there's nothing much he himself can do about that, but he can try to reduce the number of abortions in Virginia.
In my opinion, Tim Kaine is a liberal Democrat, but a reasonably devout Catholic. The two are not mutually exclusive, and in truth, it does get tiresome after awhile to see conservatives doing their best to argue otherwise or that the GOP is somehow the party favored by God.
I don't agree with Tim Kaine's politics, but conversely I don't suggest that his political point of view is inherently anti-Catholic or irreconcilable with Catholic religious teachings.
Interesting numbers.
Catechism of the Catholic Church and what it says about those who support abortion
What does this say about the newly elected Governor Kaine? Excommunication, in my way of interpretation. Please check the links.
...(Unless were talkin about Presidential, or 50/50 in the US Senate which would affect committee control)
It's absolutely amazing that someone can vote for a democrat if they're practicing Catholic.
**Nothing blew me away more than seeing a Kerry-Edwards sticker on various cars at Mass durig last year's campaign.**
Bugs me, too. And I got harrassed in the church parking lot because I had a W 2004 sticker on my car!
The Catholic voters put George W. Bush over the top in the 2004 election. They're that important.
You make it sound as if CINO's are somehow being hoodwinked. They happily and intentionally vote Democrat because they are true believers.
I come from working-class Catholic stock (East Ohio coal miners and steelworkers). Voting Democratic was the right, patriotic, and decent thing to do. People took care of each other during the Depression and later, and the Democratic party at that time reflected peoples' values. My Mom refuses to this day to criticize Harry Truman (I think he was a good man except woefully misinformed about Stalin).
But the Democrat party of today is an alien, foreign thing.
And you can put your `dominoes and biscuits' on that!
ProLife Ping!
If anyone wants on or off my ProLife Ping List, please notify me here or by freepmail.
I know. I was one of them.
Part of the problem is that the Catholic clergy is heavily Democratic in sentiment. The bishops have been slow to abandon their belief that they could retain some influence in the Democratic Party. They could not believe it when Catholic pols began to abandon them in the '70s. Another problem is the traditional Protestant "tone" of the Republican Party. It has been only in the last few elections that the party has actively worked to gain Catholic support.
If Kaine want to have any influence in national politics, he will change his tune on the issue of abortion. The only thing tyhat might spare him is the hope that the Democrats will back away from extreme positions such as partial birth abortions. Since they seem to be scenting success next year, I doubt this will happen. Emily's list has too much money to hand out, and they are fanatics.
Lots of comments I could make here, but I will settle on the most imporatant: Every Catholic in PA needs to vote for Santorum in the next election, and then for President in '08.
the same applies to Jews . The more committed and traditional, the more conservative a voter. But what percentage of Catholics are traditional thewe days?
Catholic ping.
Oh, I hope they listen to you. I just love Sen. Santorum, and it breaks my heart that he is having so much trouble in his reelection campaign. I think he is a national treasure.
My beautician was telling me that before the 2004 Presidential election, her priest was telling the flock to vote against Kerry because he was pro-abortion.
Tim Kaine is considered to be pro-abortion because of his actions.
When he ran for Lt. Governor he was pro-choice. Pro-choice being the euphenism for pro-abortion, of course.
He opposed Virginia's Partial Birth Abortion Ban. He opposed regulation of Virginia's abortion mills.
The Virginia Society for Human Life found his postitions incompatible with a Pro-Life position.
All of this is not hard to verify so I can only conclude that there are a lot of catholic Virginians who are not bothered by Mr. Kaine's appalling lip service to the sacredness of human life.
"What does this say about the newly elected Governor Kaine? Excommunication, in my way of interpretation. Please check the links."
I did. It looks to me like formally cooperating in abortion is a something for which you are excommunicated. The devil, of course, is in establishing formal cooperation.
I have yet to see anything where Tim Kaine has said something along the lines of: "I support abortion." If someone has such a quote, I'd certainly appreciate a link.
From what I can tell, Tim Kaine takes a different strategic perspective with regards to reducing and/or eliminating abortion. Given that abortion is still just as legal as it was in 1973, I do think that some different strategic thinking is in order.
I don't agree with Tim Kaine's politics, and I don't necessarily agree with him on this. But I am willing to hear him out.
I think it needs to be pointed out that this was pretty much the position of the Diocese of Richmond under Bishop Walter Sullivan. A lot of sincere practicing Catholics in that area grew up with this outlook. Attacking Kaine on the death penalty just invited a negative response from these people.
"It's absolutely amazing that someone can vote for a Democrat if they're practicing Catholic."
I am a practicing Catholic and I do vote for Democrats, although certainly not for every race.
I think we need to get over this idea that the GOP is somehow the Party of God. It isn't. There are some fine and devout people running for office as Republicans, and there are some fine and devout people who support the party. But neither they nor their favored candidates have a monopoly on piety.
An interesting statistic I ran across (and I was I could find it) was a survey of whether Republicans or Democrats believe that the Bible is the literal word of God. Amongst Democrats, the percentage who believed that was higher. Which is easy to explain when you consider that the Democratic base is generally churchgoing folk. Particularly in the South.
To be honest to this foreigner the US Democratic Party seems to be going on the routes such as the Labour Party of New Zealand or Social Democratic Party of Germany - filled with people that say formal they have "no religion". It won't be long to have a Joe Smith as leader who "grew up in a nominally Episcopal/Catholic family whose parents seldom go to church. They brought Joe to baptism but when he grew up, he never went to church. To him, the Christian concept of God is simply a superstitious concept but he does believe in an invisible concept of fate and also some spirits do exist in the world."
This is what happened to the New Zealand Labour Party. The current leader Helen Clark (the NZ Prime Minister) is from a British stock family that I presume was Anglican over generations but she herself is officially atheist and refuses to say grace in official dinner occasions. In such cases it is not hard to see people of genuine religion (whether they are true Christians) to vote for the politically conservative parties.
I know some HK Chinese Christian pastors who spent a lot of time in seminaries in America argue that a political leftism coupled with social conservatism is the Christian position. They also try to paint the political conservatives in a brush as "South Park conservatives, Ayn Rand objectivists, or theologically liberal WASPs". I imagine this is what ethnic minority Christians in America mostly think.
Of course what they support is that apart from porn, gay right, abortion, they lockstep with the US Democrats including war and defence, treating UN as "world opinion", social welfare state, economic regulations and even nationalizations of key industries. It took me until 2000 to be able to find Christians who also happen to believe in free markets and don't believe in utopian pacifism.
"He opposed Virginia's Partial Birth Abortion Ban. He opposed regulation of Virginia's abortion mills."
I can see a good reason for NOT pushing additional legislation to further regulate abortion mills: these regulations serve as straw men that simply get knocked down by the courts. You can spend your resources and time trying to get these laws put into place only to watch the courts rule them unconstitutional in short order.
"Of course what they support is that apart from porn, gay rights, abortion, they lockstep with the US Democrats including war and defence, treating UN as "world opinion", social welfare state, economic regulations and even nationalizations of key industries."
Agreeing with the left's position on war and defense issues, treating the UN as world opinion, etc. is not necessarily in conflict with Christian or Catholic teachings.
I don't agree with those positions myself, but that's not based on my religious beliefs. I simply think it unwise.
well, the issue is that according to them, to not to so is the anti-Christian stance. And they argue that every Christian must take what they espouse.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.