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A column about Kansas Science Standards
EducationNews.org ^ | November 14, 2005 | State Board Chairman Steve Abrams, DVM

Posted on 11/14/2005 8:06:26 AM PST by Exigence

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To: VadeRetro
Gish has a degree in engineering.

And amazingly, he doesn't seem to understand the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics (or he deliberately distorts it - I'm not sure which).

51 posted on 11/14/2005 8:58:07 AM PST by Quark2005 (Science aims to elucidate. Pseudoscience aims to obfuscate.)
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To: MeanWestTexan
I was more asking about why you'd have any sort of distinct categories of "microevolution" versus "macroevolution" ... how the process of evolution itself could be bounded into such distinctions ...

What you stated is basically how I unserstand evolution, I was just amazed by the article's statement: We want to differentiate between the genetic capacity in each species genome that permits it to change with the environment as being different from changing to some other creature.

And was curious how they could define a "genetic capacity" when one of the things evolution could do is change the "genetic capacity", and what would regulate such "permission to change" if such permission is contained in DNA and thusly could itself be changed ...

52 posted on 11/14/2005 8:58:24 AM PST by bobhoskins (?)
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To: VadeRetro
Behe is a real biochemist.

Just not a particularly good one, it seems.

53 posted on 11/14/2005 8:59:04 AM PST by RogueIsland
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To: From many - one.
You are hardly a neutral source.

Are you saying that the link provided in the article to the State of Kansas website has to be provided by a neutral source? You're kidding, right? Sheesh...

54 posted on 11/14/2005 8:59:26 AM PST by Exigence
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To: wyattearp
The science standards, approved 08 November, are linked at this website under "Hot Topics":
Kansas State Department of Education.
55 posted on 11/14/2005 9:00:12 AM PST by PatrickHenry (Expect no response if you're a troll, lunatic, retard, or incurable ignoramus.)
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To: From many - one.

This is truly classic!


56 posted on 11/14/2005 9:00:15 AM PST by blowfish
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To: wyattearp
Next time you post an excerpt, identify it as such.

What excerpt? I posted the entire text. Check the link!

57 posted on 11/14/2005 9:00:34 AM PST by Exigence
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To: Exigence
It's also interesting how foreign science journals are more honest about printing research that might chip away at evolution.

Any specific citations? This would be more effective than an apocryphal reference. I'm all for peer-reviewed literature being used in the context of proper science education. I'm aware of none that exists supporting ID or creationism.

58 posted on 11/14/2005 9:00:39 AM PST by Quark2005 (Science aims to elucidate. Pseudoscience aims to obfuscate.)
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To: Quark2005
I may have confused him with Dr. Walt Brown, who at least got his engineering degree from MIT. I should go Google before I post but sometimes don't realize what's getting jumbled in the old head.

I'll be back in a sec.

59 posted on 11/14/2005 9:01:02 AM PST by VadeRetro (Liberalism is a cancer on society. Creationism is a cancer on conservatism.)
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To: Exigence

BTTT.


60 posted on 11/14/2005 9:01:39 AM PST by The Ghost of FReepers Past (The nastiness of evolutionists proves one theological point: human depravity..)
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To: Chiapet
I think that the Kansas state board has drafts posted on their website. Try google.

Or, perhaps, try the URL in the article I posted. I'm beginning to think no one reads before they comment. *g*

61 posted on 11/14/2005 9:01:58 AM PST by Exigence
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Comment #62 Removed by Moderator

To: Quark2005
I was wrong. Gish has degrees in chemistry and biochemistry. Show to go ya that faith in things unseen isn't good for everybody.
63 posted on 11/14/2005 9:03:08 AM PST by VadeRetro (Liberalism is a cancer on society. Creationism is a cancer on conservatism.)
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To: orionblamblam
The state school board sets standards. Abdicating responsibilities here has led to a hodge-podge of unConstitutional local gun laws as well as allowing schools to become urban cesspits of crime and stupidity in some places and rural cesspits of superstition and stupidity in others.

Ah, yes, a real conservative. We should shut down private schools and home schools, too, eh? Pardon, but your rampant liberalism is peeking through... Don't you hate that when that happens? lol

64 posted on 11/14/2005 9:04:41 AM PST by Exigence
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To: VadeRetro

I think you might be confusing Gish with Henry Morris - he's a hydraulic engineer, I believe.


65 posted on 11/14/2005 9:04:46 AM PST by Quark2005 (Science aims to elucidate. Pseudoscience aims to obfuscate.)
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To: highball
Yet another example of a creationist trying to insult evolution by calling it a religion. Tells you a lot about them....

Yes, it does. Thank you. *g*

66 posted on 11/14/2005 9:05:36 AM PST by Exigence
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To: From many - one.
A thoroughly dishonest representation of most scientists' views on evolution and no attribution given.

The "five words" bit is also a thoroughly dishonest representation of the changes made to the Kansas standards. There's also a bit tossed in asserting that the fossil record does not support evolution.

This might surprise Behe, who is on record in "Darwin's Black Box" and under oath in court saying that the fossil record does support evolution.

67 posted on 11/14/2005 9:06:12 AM PST by js1138 (Great is the power of steady misrepresentation.)
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To: Doctor Stochastic
Mr Abrams's claim is vacuous.

I believe that is "Dr." Abrams to you... but, why bother with facts. *g*

68 posted on 11/14/2005 9:06:24 AM PST by Exigence
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To: Quark2005
I'm aware of none that exists supporting ID or creationism.

Ah, the old bait and switch. I was talking about evolution and criticism thereof. What are you talking about? It seems some agenda, because the focus keeps slipping.

69 posted on 11/14/2005 9:08:07 AM PST by Exigence
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To: Exigence
Except in Kansas... or at least, except in Kansas until the Board wisely amended our standards to allow such criticism. The old standards forbade it... which one should know before launching criticism at the new standards.

This is a lie. The old standards allowed criticism. The new standards redefine science to allow irrational conjecture to be considered on equal footing with actual science.
70 posted on 11/14/2005 9:09:07 AM PST by Dimensio (http://angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif <-- required reading before you use your next apostrophe!)
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To: Exigence
It's also interesting how foreign science journals are more honest about printing research that might chip away at evolution.

The foreign journals are just as atheistic, materialist, Satanic, blah! blah! blah! as those with their HQs in the US. If there was a body of "foreign" research contradicting the preponderance of opinion in US science, it would be all over these threads and we'd have been talking about it for years now.

Yes, you named no one, but I am familiar with the antievolution arguments and who makes them. And the preponderance of opinion in science is not anything you want it to be. That and not the personal attachments of state or local school board members should be reflected in the preparation of educational materials.

71 posted on 11/14/2005 9:10:25 AM PST by VadeRetro (Liberalism is a cancer on society. Creationism is a cancer on conservatism.)
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To: wyattearp
Then put it as a link, jackass. Do it right or shut up.

I see... well, glad to see that you're man enough to admit you hadn't read the article and can't see the URL unless it's linked. That certainly warrants some name calling, doesn't it? Well, then, back to talking to the reasonable and intelligent... lol

BTW, is school out today?

72 posted on 11/14/2005 9:10:47 AM PST by Exigence
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To: Exigence

Okay, is that what this row was all about? A clause in science standards mandating criticism of origin-of-life theories? Any of the Kansans are yahoos (in Swift's sense, not subscribers to a certain on-line company) crowd have some missing quotations from the Kansas BOR standards to show otherwise?

Origin of life theories are so far from being settled science that any teaching of them without criticisms would be an erosion of science education.


73 posted on 11/14/2005 9:11:43 AM PST by The_Reader_David (And when they behead your own people in the wars which are to come, then you will know. . .)
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To: Dimensio
This is a lie. The old standards allowed criticism.

I beg to differ, but those who toss the word "lie" around so casually can probably substantiate their claims, right?

74 posted on 11/14/2005 9:13:06 AM PST by Exigence
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To: The_Reader_David
Origin of life theories are so far from being settled science that any teaching of them without criticisms would be an erosion of science education.

Precisely.

75 posted on 11/14/2005 9:13:52 AM PST by Exigence
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To: Quark2005
Him too, but Dr. Walt Brown's mechanical engineering degree from MIT had somehow attached itself to Gish for the moment.
76 posted on 11/14/2005 9:14:28 AM PST by VadeRetro (Liberalism is a cancer on society. Creationism is a cancer on conservatism.)
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To: VadeRetro
If you're offended, Dr. Gish, at least I correct my mistakes. This is what happens from falling into a bad crowd and becoming the Boss.

It was early in October
When I was far from sober
And hauling home a load with manly pride,
When my feet began to stutter,
So I tumbled in the gutter
And soon a pig was seated by my side.

Then I warbled "It's fair weather
When good fellows get together,"
'Till a lady passing by was heard to say,
"You can tell a man who boozes
By the company he chooses."
And the pig got up and slowly walked away.


77 posted on 11/14/2005 9:19:27 AM PST by VadeRetro (Liberalism is a cancer on society. Creationism is a cancer on conservatism.)
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To: Exigence
Ah, the old bait and switch. I was talking about evolution and criticism thereof.

No bait and switch. I was asking for citations for peer-reviewed literature that criticize the general validity of evolution. You still haven't provided any.

Till then, I see no reason to introduce scientific critiques that don't exist into a school curriculum...

78 posted on 11/14/2005 9:20:19 AM PST by Quark2005 (Science aims to elucidate. Pseudoscience aims to obfuscate.)
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To: Exigence

> I see the distinction.

Clearly you do not. Please return to grade school for a refresher course.


79 posted on 11/14/2005 9:23:50 AM PST by orionblamblam ("You're the poster boy for what ID would turn out if it were taught in our schools." VadeRetro)
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To: Exigence
OK. Dr Abrahms's claim is vacuous.

...why bother with facts....

Dr Abrahms didn't in the article posted.

80 posted on 11/14/2005 9:26:14 AM PST by Doctor Stochastic (Vegetabilisch = chaotisch ist der Charakter der Modernen. - Friedrich Schlegel)
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To: Exigence

> We should shut down private schools and home schools, too, eh? Pardon, but your rampant liberalism is peeking through...

Again, seek help on obtaining at least a minimal education. You are embarassing yourself. You can't even do a decent ad hominem attack.


81 posted on 11/14/2005 9:26:48 AM PST by orionblamblam ("You're the poster boy for what ID would turn out if it were taught in our schools." VadeRetro)
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To: The_Reader_David

Origin of life is not evolution.


82 posted on 11/14/2005 9:27:31 AM PST by From many - one.
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To: Quark2005; Exigence
There are real discussions in science about details of mechanism and history. Can variation be nonrandom? How large is the role of genetic drift? How large is the role of parapatric speciation? Is this or that taxon monophyletic or was it built in part by convergence? What exact selection pressures were operating to produce this or that? Discussions of that sort will go on indefinitely.

Only the whack jobs are still contesting common descent and whether evolution happens at all. The Kansas Board is in this latter territory.

83 posted on 11/14/2005 9:28:19 AM PST by VadeRetro (Liberalism is a cancer on society. Creationism is a cancer on conservatism.)
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To: Doctor Stochastic

Can two members of the opposite sex was implied, obviously.


84 posted on 11/14/2005 9:28:24 AM PST by MeanWestTexan (Many at FR would respond to Christ "Darn right, I'll cast the first stone!")
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To: bobhoskins

It is the same mentality that would pictures the start of a marthon, the middle, and the end just see a bunch of steps and no journey.


85 posted on 11/14/2005 9:29:57 AM PST by MeanWestTexan (Many at FR would respond to Christ "Darn right, I'll cast the first stone!")
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The CrevoSci Archive
Just one of the many services of Darwin Central
"The Conspiracy that Cares"

CrevoSci threads for the past week:

  1. 2005-11-14 A column about Kansas Science Standards
  2. 2005-11-14 THE CATHOLIC CHURCH EMBRACES EVOLUTION!!!!
  3. 2005-11-13 Intelligent Design Grounded in Science
  4. 2005-11-13 Intelligent Design, Part 1
  5. 2005-11-13 Pope states the universe is a product of an 'intelligent project'
  6. 2005-11-13 Santorum: Don't put intelligent design in classroom
  7. 2005-11-12 [Kansas Gov. Kathleen] Sebelius criticizes State Board of Education's move [new science standards]
  8. 2005-11-12 ID [Intelligent Design] Opens Astronomer’s Mind to Universe’s Surprises
  9. 2005-11-11 A revolution for evolution - Intelligent design must not replace hard science in classrooms.
  10. 2005-11-11 Dover results disputed: School board candidate says machine was faulty
  11. 2005-11-11 FR Debate: Intelligent Design vs. Birth Defects, Can They Be Reconciled?
  12. 2005-11-11 Potential Origins of Europeans Found
  13. 2005-11-11 The Real Evil of Evolutionary Humanism
  14. 2005-11-10 Culture War Briefing, weekday news guide
  15. 2005-11-10 Fossils of fierce-looking dinosaur found in Argentina (Godzilla)
  16. 2005-11-10 Is Intelligent Design a Bad Scientific Theory or a Non-Scientific Theory?
  17. 2005-11-10 Kansas educators clear way for evolution criticism
  18. 2005-11-10 Pat Robertson has a message for Dover, PA: Don't ask God to help.
  19. 2005-11-10 Pat Robertson Warns Pa. Town of Disaster
  20. 2005-11-10 US states divide over creationism [the view from the UK]
  21. 2005-11-10 Why the conspiracy theorizing about theories? (Freeper op-ed)
  22. 2005-11-09 Anti-Evolution School Board Ousted
  23. 2005-11-09 Dover CARES sweeps election (Intelligent Design loses big)
  24. 2005-11-09 Evolution Suffers Kansas Setback
  25. 2005-11-09 Gigantic Apes Coexisted With Early Humans, Study Finds
  26. 2005-11-09 'Intelligent Design' Wins In Kansas
  27. 2005-11-09 Patent issued for anti-gravity device
  28. 2005-11-09 Science to ride gravitational waves
  29. 2005-11-09 Shifting Icebergs May Have Forced Penguin Evolution
  30. 2005-11-09 Shifting Icebergs May Have Forced Penguin Evolution
  31. 2005-11-08 Bloodthirsty 'Vampire' Spider Found
  32. 2005-11-08 Down for the Count (Sleep & Evolution)
  33. 2005-11-08 Federal lawsuit could follow board vote [Evolution in Kansas & Dover]
  34. 2005-11-08 Kansas education board downplays evolution
  35. 2005-11-08 Kansas State Board Approves Teaching Standards Skeptical of Evolution
  36. 2005-11-08 Math problems too big for our brains
  37. 2005-11-08 RATE research reveals remarkable results—a fatal blow to billions of years (Evolution loses)
  38. 2005-11-08 The 'Vatican' Endorses 'Darwin'? ['Vatican' has done no such thing

CrevoSci Thread Count, 2005 YTD:  1094


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86 posted on 11/14/2005 9:30:09 AM PST by Junior (From now on, I'll stick to science, and leave the hunting alien mutants to the experts!)
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To: Exigence
It's also interesting how foreign science journals are more honest about printing research that might chip away at evolution.

Citations?

87 posted on 11/14/2005 9:31:40 AM PST by Doctor Stochastic (Vegetabilisch = chaotisch ist der Charakter der Modernen. - Friedrich Schlegel)
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To: Exigence

No, I am sying "you are hardly a neutral source"

You suggested that reading the article which contained a link would be sufficient.

If you had said "go to the link" I would not have had to point out that you are hardly a neutral source.


88 posted on 11/14/2005 9:35:02 AM PST by From many - one.
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To: MeanWestTexan
It is the same mentality that would pictures the start of a marthon, the middle, and the end just see a bunch of steps and no journey.

I'm not following what you mean by this ... could you clarify your statement?

89 posted on 11/14/2005 9:35:32 AM PST by bobhoskins (?)
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To: blowfish

Thanks.


90 posted on 11/14/2005 9:36:45 AM PST by From many - one.
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To: Doctor Stochastic
Try the Soviet biology journals of the 1950's. <g>
91 posted on 11/14/2005 9:37:42 AM PST by Physicist
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To: Exigence

Precisely irrelevant.

Origin of life is not evolution.


92 posted on 11/14/2005 9:40:03 AM PST by From many - one.
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To: MeanWestTexan

Actually "another" might be better than opposite. Some critters have breeding strains that function about the same way as sexes. Schizophyllum commune, a fungus, has 28,000.


93 posted on 11/14/2005 9:42:53 AM PST by From many - one.
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To: bobhoskins

Basically, this guy is preaching "micro-evolution" because all he sees is a single step, and intentionally refuses to see the evidence of a series of "steps."

He doesn't have (or refuses to use, more likely) the mental ability to see how multiple small changes can accumulate to create something completely different.

It is akin to seeing hand drawn animation frames not running through the projector and not seeing how one can have motion --- just a bunch of pictures, each slightly different.


94 posted on 11/14/2005 9:43:18 AM PST by MeanWestTexan (Many at FR would respond to Christ "Darn right, I'll cast the first stone!")
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To: MeanWestTexan

Okay, thanks ... I keep hoping for explanations from "the other side" though ...


95 posted on 11/14/2005 9:45:28 AM PST by bobhoskins (?)
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To: From many - one.

We're keeping it simple. Think vertibrates.


96 posted on 11/14/2005 9:46:00 AM PST by MeanWestTexan (Many at FR would respond to Christ "Darn right, I'll cast the first stone!")
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To: MeanWestTexan

Spoilsport.

I like fungi. They're not mentioned in Genesis. That might mean they don't exist.


97 posted on 11/14/2005 9:48:18 AM PST by From many - one.
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To: VadeRetro
...Gish has degrees in chemistry and biochemistry....

But, we can be sure it's not "REAL" (wink, wink) chemistry and biochemistry...right?...

98 posted on 11/14/2005 9:49:46 AM PST by KMJames
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To: KMJames
But, we can be sure it's not "REAL" (wink, wink) chemistry and biochemistry...right?...

I'm sure Gish did the chemistry and biochemistry to get his degree (from Berkeley, I believe), and probably did very good work as a graduate student.

What peer-reviewed work has he published since then, is the real question. I'd be glad to give the man credit for any work he has done that has been published in referred journals - that's how scientific credibility works. As far as his rants about evolution, they really don't have much scientific relevance if they don't directly reflect actual accomplishments in science.

99 posted on 11/14/2005 9:59:53 AM PST by Quark2005 (Science aims to elucidate. Pseudoscience aims to obfuscate.)
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To: bobhoskins
I'm curious, what are the uppoer/lower bounds of permitted gentic change in a species? What happens when it reaches the maximum allowed changes in that species?

Well it works like this. First you decide you don't like the idea of one type of animal turning into another type. Then you decide to draw the line at species because...well because you have heard the word species and that sounds like it will do.

That's it - sorry

100 posted on 11/14/2005 10:00:26 AM PST by bobdsmith
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