Defense Attorney's Closing Argument in Dover Evolution Trial

National Center for Science Education ^ | 16 November 2005 | Patrick Gillen, Esq.

[taxesareforever]

When creationists stop lying I won't have to say liar anymore.

That's a big problem. You see, we both have a different perspective of what a liar is. In that respect we will never agree.:)

[King Prout]

baloney.

that is like saying I cannot call a program a word-processing system AND a series of zeros and ones.

you excel in the false dichotomy.

[dread78645]

"When creationists stop lying misspeaking I won't have to say liar misspeaker anymore." placemark

[King Prout]

To remove a factor from any organism is to irretrievably terminate that organism.

explain amputees

[spinestein]

[Because you say it is so we are to bow to your opinion. But sir, you have no credibility here. How are we to believe what you say when your opinion has no value?]



One part of the methodology of science is that there is no weight given to "authority", only weight given to the validity of the evidence provided. My opinion has no value based on who I am, or what my scientific background may be, and neither does anyone else's opinion.

My statement that I.D. is a religion and not a scientific theory stands on its own because it is true and can be demonstrated true by anyone who wants to look up the definition of a scientific theory and compare it to the definition of I.D. as described by its proponents.

[spinestein]

[The main point of his closing argumenets is that the definition od science is not sufficuiently inclusive of supernatural explanations...]


I didn't want to believe that was true, but I think you're right. It does appear he's trying to get the courts to accept a new definition of science to be taught in a public school science classroom: one that includes a belief that supernatural causes are sufficient support for a scientific theory.

[spinestein]

[Science is a closed box to the supernatural.]

[[Absolutely incorrect.]]


Absolute correct. The methodology of science precludes all explanations which are not natural in origin and which do not follow knowable natural laws or processes.

This integral part of the methodology of science is necessary to its success in formulating proper questions, conducting proper experiments, analyzing evidence properly and arriving at proper conclusions (from a scientific standpoint).

Just because some people disagree with this "exclusiveness" doesn't change the fact that it's been this way for as long as modern science has existed, and unless this court case goes horribly wrong it's going to stay that way.

[longshadow]

the proper concept which they have bastardized is "irreducible simplicity"

IT's all been stolen from the proponents of Flying Spaghetti Monsterism, who first proposed the concept of "irreducible noodlosity".....

[Drammach]

It's the pro-ID side, after all, and presumably it's the best they could do. I'm a bit surprised at the lack of response to the thread. But as I've observed so often before, not every thread is a winner.

I've been "lurking" but not posting any comments..
I had a heart attack on 6 Nov. and have been in and out of the hospital, so I have sort of been hanging back on anything that would involve getting into heated arguments..
I'm sure my presently "altered behaviour" will not last for long, however, and I will be back in the heat of battle soon enough..

For the meantime though, I am content to just browse the comments and leave it at that..

[PatrickHenry]

Take care of yourself. Lie low until you can handle these threads. The issues are important, but so is your health.

[CarolinaGuitarman]

"I had a heart attack on 6 Nov. and have been in and out of the hospital, so I have sort of been hanging back on anything that would involve getting into heated arguments.."

Well, whatever you do, don't let these little spats here affect your health. Follow your doctor's advice, get some rest, take it easy, and just take these threads in stride. Your well being is far more important than these threads. :)

[Drammach]

Your well being is far more important than these threads

After some self-examination, I came to the same conclusion.. I was taking some of this stuff far too seriously..

I am trying to develop a more "laid back" attitude toward all of it..
That, and learning to cook fish.. ( need more fish in my diet.. )

Got any recipes that make salmon taste less like salmon?? LOL..

[CarolinaGuitarman]

" After some self-examination, I came to the same conclusion.. I was taking some of this stuff far too seriously..."

Especially on the crevo threads, you have people with wildly different viewpoints. It's easy to let the blood pressure rise; I have tried (with mixed success I might add; don't use me as an example!) to let a lot of this just slide by, but it isn't always easy. :)


" Got any recipes that make salmon taste less like salmon?? LOL.."

None that don't involve substituting the salmon for hamburger. lol

[PatrickHenry]

... learning to cook fish ...

Why cook fish? They're not worth the bother. Just get a can opener.

[curiosity]

Actually the argument is that they indeed do not advance religion since it's only Ceremonial Deism which is not unconstitutional

Really? Please name a single congressional chaplain who was a deist.

Also, why would a deist trust in God? What point would there be in trusting in a deity who is uninterested in the affiars of men?

[curiosity]

It's a way of violating the First Amendment

Strange, because the very same people who wrote the First Amendment didn't seem to have a problem with any of these things.

Seems to me either you or they don't understand what the 1st Amendment menas. I'll go with the Founding Fathers, thank you very much.

[King Prout]

ah! Prego!

[King Prout]

lemon helps.

but... salmon is GOOOOOD

[longshadow]

ah! Prego!

Ramen!

[King Prout]

Pasta be upon you.