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Austria arrests Irving over Holocaust
Reuters ^ | Nov 17, 2005 | Staff

Posted on 11/17/2005 5:17:01 PM PST by Anti-Bubba182

VIENNA (Reuters) - Historian David Irving, known for his controversial views on World War Two, has been arrested in Austria on suspicion of denying the Holocaust, an interior ministry spokesman said on Thursday.

Irving was arrested on November 11 near the town of Hartberg in the southern province of Styria under a warrant issued in 1989, interior ministry spokesman Rudolf Gollia said.

"He is on remand in Vienna," Gollia said.

Asked what Irving had been arrested for, Gollia said: "It is to do with ... Holocaust denial."

The spokesman declined to comment on whether or when he would be charged.

A High Court ruling in 2000 rejecting Irving's libel action against an American professor and her publishers declared Irving "an active Holocaust denier ... anti-Semitic and racist".

Denying the holocaust is a crime in Austria which carries a sentence of 1-10 years.

Irving's Web site (www.fpp.co.uk) said he had been invited by students to address a university association in Vienna. In a message dated November 11, it said he was on a one-day visit to the Austrian capital.


TOPICS: Miscellaneous; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: davidirving; freespeech; hitler; holocaust; irving; nazi; pc
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1 posted on 11/17/2005 5:17:02 PM PST by Anti-Bubba182
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To: Anti-Bubba182

... and boy, they oughtta know.


2 posted on 11/17/2005 5:18:52 PM PST by The KG9 Kid (Semper Fi!)
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To: Anti-Bubba182

This could get interesting, if it ever gets to trial. You think maybe Irving and his friends in Austria orchestrated this arrest?


3 posted on 11/17/2005 5:23:31 PM PST by Bonaparte
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To: Anti-Bubba182

Good lord.


4 posted on 11/17/2005 5:24:13 PM PST by wardaddy (Captain Spaulding .....the perfect dinner guest)
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To: Anti-Bubba182

Am I to understand that it's against the law in Austria to deny that the Holocaust happened? That's worse than the Holocaust.


5 posted on 11/17/2005 5:31:39 PM PST by R.W.Ratikal
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To: Anti-Bubba182

Just wondering....had Arafat or any other high-profile Arab politician made some sort of similar statement?


6 posted on 11/17/2005 5:34:30 PM PST by texianyankee
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To: R.W.Ratikal
Not worse - not by a long shot.

BUT an utterly offensive law nevertheless.
7 posted on 11/17/2005 6:10:39 PM PST by BenLurkin (O beautiful for patriot dream - that sees beyond the years)
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To: Anti-Bubba182
I like it. What was done to the Jews was beyond barbarism, it was the very essence of evil and hatred. To minimize it is offensive, to deny it happened is at minimum stupid, but much more than merely offensive. To teach that the holocaust didn't happen is criminal. I wouldn't be offended if he gets the full 10 years and needs a diaper when he gets out.
8 posted on 11/17/2005 6:16:15 PM PST by GBA (I believe Congressman Weldon! MSM do your job.)
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To: R.W.Ratikal
Am I to understand that it's against the law in Austria to deny that the Holocaust happened? That's worse than the Holocaust.

...and in Germany, and the Netherlands, and France...and soon to come to the good old U.S.of A. when the ADL gets Congress to pass "hate speech" laws. Just do a Google search for Ernst Zundel, Germar Rudolf and David Irving for a real wake up call. All three are in prison for ideas, not crimes. Two of which were deported from the U.S. by "Homeland Security" on bogus immigration violation charges, while thousands of criminals swarm across the Southern border daily. Don't you feel safer?

9 posted on 11/17/2005 6:18:22 PM PST by crabapple joe
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To: GBA

"I like it. What was done to the Jews was beyond barbarism, it was the very essence of evil and hatred."

I see you're no friend of the First Amendment.


10 posted on 11/17/2005 6:19:19 PM PST by RedMonqey (Life is hard. It's even harder when you're stupid.)
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To: GBA

I was thinking more along the lines of taking that guy out back, beating him and tell him the beating never happened.

Then call it a day. ;)


11 posted on 11/17/2005 6:19:47 PM PST by 1FASTGLOCK45 (FreeRepublic: More fun than watching Dem'Rats drown like Turkeys in the rain! ! !)
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To: R.W.Ratikal

I agree.I think Irving is all wet about the Holocaust but he should not be persecuted for HAVING those views.
Refute him with FACTS.That will serve to be the loudest condemnation of his revisionist theories.


12 posted on 11/17/2005 6:22:43 PM PST by Riverman94610
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To: R.W.Ratikal
Am I to understand that it's against the law in Austria to deny that the Holocaust happened? That's worse than the Holocaust.

I suggest that you withdraw that statement.

13 posted on 11/17/2005 6:27:27 PM PST by Athwart
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To: Athwart

second time today this article has been posted. Poor David Irving boo hoo hoo. Put some zyklon in his wheaties and let's be done with this jerkoff.


14 posted on 11/17/2005 6:30:40 PM PST by babble-on
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To: RedMonqey
First, this is an Austrian law and I'm not familiar with their system of government. But moreover, I'm a friend of truth.

I'm not Jewish, but the holocaust did happen and it was evil beyond description. He wasn't arrested here, so no freedom of speech violated. You have the right to say whatever you want. You can say slavery never happened. You can say Pearl Harbor never happened. You can say 9/11 never happened. You can burn the flag and pee on the Bible. But there are consequences and everyone else has a right to be offended. And the Austrians can lock him up if they're offended. It's their country. their law.

But hey, Could be worse. He could have been a Jew in Germany in 1941. Think the Nazis would have violated his freedom of speech?

15 posted on 11/17/2005 6:31:58 PM PST by GBA (I believe Congressman Weldon! MSM do your job.)
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To: 1FASTGLOCK45

Works for me!


16 posted on 11/17/2005 6:32:27 PM PST by GBA (I believe Congressman Weldon! MSM do your job.)
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To: crabapple joe
Two of which were deported from the U.S. by "Homeland Security" on bogus immigration violation charges, while thousands of criminals swarm across the Southern border daily.

Oh fine, don't worry about guys who killed 30 million people, because Pedro might get a job picking lima beans.

17 posted on 11/17/2005 6:34:25 PM PST by Alter Kaker (Whatever tears one may shed, in the end one always blows one’s nose.-Heine)
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To: R.W.Ratikal
Am I to understand that it's against the law in Austria to deny that the Holocaust happened? That's worse than the Holocaust.

It is not worse than the Holocaust. If you go to Austria, you obey Austrian law. Just as one would hope people going to the States would obey US law. In this case, especially given Austria's horrific history, the law makes a ton of sense.

18 posted on 11/17/2005 6:36:22 PM PST by Alter Kaker (Whatever tears one may shed, in the end one always blows one’s nose.-Heine)
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To: RedMonqey
I see you're no friend of the First Amendment.

The Austrian Constitution has a First Amendment?

19 posted on 11/17/2005 6:38:51 PM PST by Alter Kaker (Whatever tears one may shed, in the end one always blows one’s nose.-Heine)
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To: Anti-Bubba182

As a Jew, I find these laws terribly embarrassing.


20 posted on 11/17/2005 6:39:25 PM PST by Northern Alliance
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To: Anti-Bubba182

Irving oughta get on the gulag denial program. It's a much more profitable shtick. Tenure at American universities, pundit chair on the idiot box, congressional seats, all await.


21 posted on 11/17/2005 6:44:54 PM PST by Revolting cat! ("In the end, nothing explains anything.")
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To: Anti-Bubba182
He must have already written two or three dozen thought provoking books by now. Way too late.
22 posted on 11/17/2005 6:52:50 PM PST by nkycincinnatikid
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To: nkycincinnatikid

thought provoking holocaust denial books, yes, lovely.

amazing thing to me about holocaust deniers is that they all will very quickly argue that all the Jews SHOULD be killed, but that when a regime took over Europe with that mission at its core, they claim that they never got around to it, or something.


23 posted on 11/17/2005 7:01:44 PM PST by babble-on
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To: Alter Kaker

I am refering about the American First Amendment.

We all know Europeans(generally) believe in no such creature.


24 posted on 11/17/2005 7:02:53 PM PST by RedMonqey (Life is hard. It's even harder when you're stupid.)
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To: Anti-Bubba182

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1523899/posts


25 posted on 11/17/2005 7:04:05 PM PST by Sir Gawain
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To: The KG9 Kid

Gee....sounds like something out of a Michael Moore film.


26 posted on 11/17/2005 7:05:27 PM PST by Trance750
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To: babble-on
alas, babble-on, babble-on
27 posted on 11/17/2005 7:11:42 PM PST by nkycincinnatikid
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To: GBA




"But moreover, I'm a friend of truth."


Yeah, State controlled "truth". With friends like this, who needs enemies.

I don't believe in a government (i.e. socicist) agency being the judge of what the truth is.
The Truth doen't need a vangurard of bullyboys to reveal it.
Just defenders willing to stand up and counter such idiocies as Irving promotes.

You only cheapen the virtue of truth with such heavy handed tactics.

Much like the Nazis would use to enforce their version of "Truth" of which Mr. Irving is a big fan of.

"He wasn't arrested here, so no freedom of speech violated."


You have a Very LIMITED view of freedom. The Holocaust didn't happen here. Does that make it any less of a crime?

Completely illogical.



Twenty years? Why not the death penalty for "thought crimes".

Hitler and Goebbels would be soooooo proud of you and the Austrians today.


28 posted on 11/17/2005 7:20:55 PM PST by RedMonqey (Life is hard. It's even harder when you're stupid.)
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To: Anti-Bubba182

Am I the only one here who's amused by the irony of the Austrians arresting a Holocaust-denier...and by the thought that in whatever grave he's occupying, Adolf Hitler is probably spinning right now?


29 posted on 11/17/2005 7:24:20 PM PST by RichInOC (SATAN: WIE GEHT'S ADOLF!! IHRE GANZE SEELE SIND GEHOEREN UNS.)
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To: RedMonqey
State controlled truth? Get over yourself. Your emotionally charged rhetoric is way over the top and exactly what the Hitlers and the Gobbels used to advance their version of what is truth about those evil joos.

The Hitlers and the Gobbels of the world would not have been able to get as far as they did had people stood up for truth at the time. Now, likely out of societal guilt for what DID happen, the Austrians have laws to see that the holocaust doesn't happen again. Google recent polls asking Americans whether or not the holocaust happened. You might be surprised at what the Truth needs to have itself revealed. "vanguard of bullyboys"? Gosh, that's some writing.

Here in my country, I wouldn't be in favor of locking Irving up, but I'm also not in favor of telling the Austrians to live by our Constitution. They can freely decide that for themselves, as if I had anything to say about how they run their country! If they don't like people lying about the holocaust, it's their right to 'splain that to them. If you don't like that, don't go there. If you think it's ok to say the holocaust didn't happen, then we're done talking.

But we Americans do have the first Amendment and you can say whatever you feel like saying, regardless of how ignorant it might be. You don't have the right to be heard, but I support your first amendment right to freely express yourself. Just don't be surprised if someone takes offense and violates your pursuit of happiness.

30 posted on 11/17/2005 7:48:32 PM PST by GBA (I believe Congressman Weldon! MSM do your job.)
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To: RedMonqey
I am refering about [SIC] the American First Amendment.

Well that's nice. You'd be amazed to learn that the First Amendment doesn't apply anywhere except in the United States. So bringing up the US Constitution is rather pointless.

31 posted on 11/17/2005 7:51:39 PM PST by Alter Kaker (Whatever tears one may shed, in the end one always blows one’s nose.-Heine)
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To: GBA
Just don't be surprised if someone takes offense and violates your pursuit of happiness.

It is quite evident you have no concept of what the Constitution and Declaration of Independence were all about. Yeah, let's round up the people who we disagree with and violate their pursuit of happiness.

32 posted on 11/17/2005 8:24:51 PM PST by crabapple joe
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To: Alter Kaker
Oh fine, don't worry about guys who killed 30 million people, because Pedro might get a job picking lima beans.

Did David Irving really kill 30 million folks?....damn, he's better than Pol Pot, Stalin, Hitler, and Jeffrey Damler put together. Had I known I would be voting your party ticket. Based upon what I've read he's a historian who has written a number of well-read books on the second world war with no criminal record. Perhaps you can enlighten me. As for "Pedro" picking lima beans you might be interested to know that 25% of the criminal prison population in California is made up of illegal aliens. But now we're talking about real criminals, as opposed to "thought criminals"...a distinction you obviously don't get.

33 posted on 11/17/2005 8:33:11 PM PST by crabapple joe
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To: R.W.Ratikal

It must really suck to live in a Nation with no 1st amendment rights.


34 posted on 11/17/2005 8:47:27 PM PST by JABBERBONK
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To: RedMonqey
Twenty years? Why not the death penalty for "thought crimes".

Here in Atlanta we recently had a real criminal sentenced to only 30 years for murdering a mother and her two-year old child...shot the child in the head and then burned both of them in the trunk of their car. Two of the twelve jurors (both "minorities") would not vote for the death penalty. Now we have a man with no criminal record facing 20 years in prison for an opinion. What has Western Civilizian come to. The sad and pathetic fact is that here on a "conservative" web site folks are supporting the "thought crime" arrest. George Orwell is loving this stuff.

35 posted on 11/17/2005 9:02:45 PM PST by crabapple joe
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To: Anti-Bubba182
Denying the holocaust is a crime in Austria which carries a sentence of 1-10 years.

Long live the 1st amendment in america!

36 posted on 11/17/2005 9:03:48 PM PST by lawgirl (Sure I believe in intelligent design. The best accident we've come up with is Mary in grilled cheese)
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To: lawgirl
Denying the holocaust is a crime in Austria which carries a sentence of 1-10 years.

~ Long live the 1st amendment in America! ~

______________________________________

If their was no Lenin or Russian Revolution I believe their would have never been a Hitler and no Jewish mass murders.

Cause and Effect.

Anyway, global abortion deaths will superseded the list below someday.


The 30 or so worst bloodletting's of the Twentieth Century

37 posted on 11/17/2005 9:27:38 PM PST by Major_Risktaker
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To: R.W.Ratikal
Am I to understand that it's against the law in Austria to deny that the Holocaust happened? That's worse than the Holocaust.

Talking about killing Jews is worse than killing them?

38 posted on 11/17/2005 10:21:08 PM PST by RansomOttawa (tm)
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To: crabapple joe
"It is quite evident you have no concept of what the Constitution and Declaration of Independence were all about."

It is quite evident you read into things what you want to see and enjoy emotional hyperbole. I never once advocated rounding people up and violating their pursuit of happiness. But as a student of human nature, I've noticed that INDIVIDUALS often become offended when beliefs they hold dear are slandered and sometimes they will act out. Is that right? Well no, but it's not surprising either.

Just so you know, there are limits to freedom. You can say anything about anybody, but you may discover that there are laws regarding slander.

Stick to the FACTS and I've got no problem with whatever you want to say, regardless of how offensive it might be at the moment.

39 posted on 11/18/2005 4:03:59 AM PST by GBA (I believe Congressman Weldon! MSM do your job.)
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To: JABBERBONK
It must really suck to live in a Nation with no 1st amendment rights.

Why, are you a Holocaust denier? You are aware, I hope, that the First Amendment applies only to the United States?

40 posted on 11/18/2005 7:19:27 AM PST by Alter Kaker (Whatever tears one may shed, in the end one always blows one’s nose.-Heine)
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To: GBA
GBA, with all due respect, I think you are missing the point. The problem with this type of law is who gets to determine what is allowed and not allowed to be "thought" or expressed?

This very law can at some point in the future be turned against the very same people that support it today.

If a law like this can be justified, then any law forbidding any type of speech can be justified.

Which is why our founding fathers gave us the first amendment.

Austria certainly has the right to pass such a law, and fortunately, we have the right to be critical of the law (with out it being assumed we support the views of the person being prosecuted).

That is what reasonable people do.

I know we all get frustrated with those that disagree with us from time to time, and secretly wish they would just shut up, or there was a way to shut them up, but preventing people from expressing their views does not mean you won them over to your side.

This type of outside force tends to keep people quiet on the surface, but it is like a boiler with the safety valve plugged up. Instead of the pressures being released safely, it builds until there is an explosion.

The best example of this is the old Soviet Union. They had plenty of laws that prevented people from speaking out until eventually it exploded.

41 posted on 11/18/2005 7:54:00 AM PST by CIB-173RDABN
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To: Alter Kaker
Well that's nice. You'd be amazed to learn that the First Amendment doesn't apply anywhere except in the United States.

Perhaps, but that's why the United States is better.

42 posted on 11/18/2005 8:27:08 AM PST by Young Scholar
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To: JABBERBONK

I have no problem with Austria censoring Irving's books or even banning him from the country. But jailing him, is beyond the pale IMHO. I agree it's their laws, whatever, but I'm just glad (at least for now) we don't have that in the US.


43 posted on 11/18/2005 8:32:09 AM PST by dfwgator
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To: Anti-Bubba182
Another pathetic headline effort by Reuters...It's accurate as far as it goes, but a half-truth can sometimes be a lie. It SHOULD read:

Austria Arrests Irving over Holocaust Denial


Obviously the man had nothing to do with the actual Holocaust, though he does threaten to dilute its historical by denying it today.

44 posted on 11/18/2005 8:35:40 AM PST by Petronski (Cyborg is the greatest blessing I have ever known.)
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To: R.W.Ratikal

Thought crimes are offensive, to be sure, but you're out of line when you say this:

"That's worse than the Holocaust."


Admit it: you wish you hadn't used that exponential bit of hyperbole.


45 posted on 11/18/2005 8:38:11 AM PST by Petronski (Cyborg is the greatest blessing I have ever known.)
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To: Petronski

Ach!


"...dilute its historical IMPACT by denying it..."


46 posted on 11/18/2005 8:40:18 AM PST by Petronski (Cyborg is the greatest blessing I have ever known.)
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To: JABBERBONK

They think it sucks to live in a nation with no guaranteed right to health care.

Because of our different histories--particularly, because we haven't had fascist governments and occupation armies--Americans and Europeans have completely different ideas of what everyone has to agree to in order for a democratic government to endure.

We're worried about losing our freedoms. Europeans are worried about fascism and the total destruction of war. Our laws reflect that difference.


47 posted on 11/18/2005 8:45:42 AM PST by HostileTerritory
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To: dfwgator

Yes, I'm grateful that the U.S. has had a strong democratic government for as long as we have. We're able to withstand the total free discourse of ideas--a discourse that, 15 years after the fall of Communism and 60 years after World War II, many European countries fear could once again lead them down the path of tyranny and murder.


48 posted on 11/18/2005 8:47:17 AM PST by HostileTerritory
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To: CIB-173RDABN
Thanks for your thoughtful post. For what it's worth, I agree with your philosophy and don't think I missed the point. You have no idea how frustrated I am at the demonrats current efforts to distort events prior to our fighting the war on terror in Iraq. They lie as a method of gaining political power. It's what politicians do. Truth in advertising doesn't exist in that arena, but it should. You can certainly be jailed for misleading people in business. Too bad the MSM is exempt. I'm getting close to the edge of that slippery slope, huh?

And I get the "slippery slope" argument, especially regarding freedom of speech. All dictatorial regimes have used censorship and propaganda as methods to control their citizens. But lets keep our perspective and stay with this one example rather than entertaining all hypothetical situations.

The Austrians have the right to decide this for themselves. If the Austrians want to jail Irving for what they consider to be inciteful speech or hate speech, then it is their right. Even we place limitations on the freedom of expression. My only hope is that we limit freedom of speech on a case by case basis and for reasons more substantial than just not liking what someone has to say.

You can't slander. You can't scream "FIRE" in a crowded theater. You can't lie in advertising. All violations of freedom of speech. That the holocaust happened is an objective FACT. That it was pure evil is a subjective opinion. To me, lying is a greater offense than having an opinion I find offensive. In all but extreme situations, we are free to have and express offensive opinions, but not to lie about facts.

49 posted on 11/18/2005 8:56:58 AM PST by GBA (I believe Congressman Weldon! MSM do your job.)
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To: GBA

If Irving is wrong on a point, he should be defeated with facts.


50 posted on 11/18/2005 8:59:53 AM PST by Deport Billary
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