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Phony Theory, False Conflict
Washington Post ^ | Nov 17 | Charles Krauthammer

Posted on 11/17/2005 9:25:39 PM PST by raj bhatia

A brilliant piece by Krauthammer, as usual. The punch line: "How ridiculous to make evolution the enemy of God. What could be more elegant, more simple, more brilliant, more economical, more creative, indeed more divine than a planet with millions of life forms, distinct and yet interactive, all ultimately derived from accumulated variations in a single double-stranded molecule, pliable and fecund enough to give us mollusks and mice, Newton and Einstein? Even if it did give us the Kansas State Board of Education, too."

(Excerpt) Read more at washingtonpost.com ...


TOPICS: News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: creation; crevolist; design; evo; evolution; goddoodit; id; intelligentdesign; krauthammer
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1 posted on 11/17/2005 9:25:39 PM PST by raj bhatia
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To: raj bhatia; PatrickHenry
"Let's be clear. Intelligent design may be interesting as theology, but as science it is a fraud. It is a self-enclosed, tautological "theory" whose only holding is that when there are gaps in some area of scientific knowledge -- in this case, evolution -- they are to be filled by God."

Well said IMHO.

2 posted on 11/17/2005 9:31:39 PM PST by RadioAstronomer (Senior member of Darwin Central)
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To: RadioAstronomer

Yup.


3 posted on 11/17/2005 9:36:15 PM PST by Mr. Mojo
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To: raj bhatia

Excellent article.


4 posted on 11/17/2005 9:36:28 PM PST by billybudd
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To: raj bhatia
I believe that if I'm lucky enough to get to heaven I'll be allowed to know more about how G-d designed the human species, and that that explanation will perfectly reconcile both the words in the Bible and the theory of natural selection. Once it is revealed, the truth will cause men to say "of course, why didn't I see it sooner."
5 posted on 11/17/2005 9:38:34 PM PST by Steely Tom (Fortunately, the Bill of Rights doesn't include the word 'is'.)
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To: RadioAstronomer

" Einstein saw his entire vocation -- understanding the workings of the universe -- as an attempt to understand the mind of God."

The sad part is that some can't see this. Any theories that cast doubt upon a strict interpretation of the bible's version of creation are labeled as heresy.


6 posted on 11/17/2005 9:48:29 PM PST by flashbunny (LOCKBOX: Where most republicans keep their gonads after they arrive in Washington D.C.)
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To: raj bhatia

Jesus paid your sin debt to the Father on the cross. He takes your sins, you take His righteousness. Why go to hell? Why? Jesus loves you! Open your hearts!

"...a high-tech factory, complete with artificial languages and decoding systems; central memory banks that store and retrieve impressive amounts of information; precision control systems that regulate the automatic assembly of components; proof-reading and quality control mechanisms that safeguard against errors; assembly systems that use principles of prefabrication and modular construction; and a complete replication system that allows the organism to duplicate itself at bewildering speeds."


7 posted on 11/17/2005 9:54:27 PM PST by ROTB (Christianity is like Fight Club, except 1) you're SUPPOSED to talk about it 2) You fight EVERY night)
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To: raj bhatia
The punch line: "How ridiculous to make evolution the enemy of God.

I usually agree with Krauthammer 1000 percent. But I think he's gotten things a little ass backwards here. First of all, neither Newton nor Einstien were evolutionists. As Christians they believed in an intelligent designer; i.e, God. Very few, possibly no evolutionists are devout Christians. It is in fact the evolutionist, the enemy of intelligent design, who makes himself the enemy of God.

8 posted on 11/17/2005 9:55:04 PM PST by kimosabe31
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To: raj bhatia

I've thought from the beginning of this debate, that those of faith who need to have the Science Seal of Approval on their beliefs are so denigrating the very idea of faith.

Science is science. I'm an avid naturalist.

Faith is faith. I'm a firm believer, and lover of God (because He loved me first).

I don't need to have some validation from the scientific community to confirm my relationship with God.

God gave us many things. Inquiring minds, a vast history, and complex biologies are just a few of his gifts.

Many religious people feel that their faith is denigrated by scientists, as indeed it is many times; trying to shoehorn one's beliefs into a scientific framework will not assuage critics, however, and only serves to belittle the faith which one is trying to forward.


9 posted on 11/17/2005 9:55:21 PM PST by wigswest
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To: kimosabe31

"First of all, neither Newton nor Einstien were evolutionists. As Christians they believed in an intelligent designer; i.e, God. Very few, possibly no evolutionists are devout Christians. It is in fact the evolutionist, the enemy of intelligent design, who makes himself the enemy of God."

I don't think you understood the article. The notion of intelligent design is not inconsistent with evolution. But one is faith, and one is science. Actually, many evolutionists are devout Christians, because they are not so arrogant as to argue that their interpretation of Scripture must be correct even when faced with strong evidence to the contrary.


10 posted on 11/17/2005 9:57:52 PM PST by BackInBlack ("The act of defending any of the cardinal virtues has today all the exhilaration of a vice.")
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To: raj bhatia
""How ridiculous to make evolution the enemy of God."

I find it interesting that he claims someone has made the theory of evolution the 'enemy of God'. Since Darwinism is the enemy of faith and the enemy of truth, it makes itself the inherent the enemy of God.

If and when 'evolution' is openly and plainly taught with the clear disclaimer that it is an unobservable theory, impossible to recreate in a laboratory, then it will be the enemy of nothing. But since they teach it as doctrine in public schools, colleges and the media, as though the theory is not controversial in the science community, it is ipso facto an enemy of God, as are all lies that pretend to be truth.

11 posted on 11/17/2005 9:58:26 PM PST by TheCrusader ("The frenzy of the Mohammedans has devastated the churches of God" -Pope Urban II, 1097AD)
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To: BackInBlack
"Actually, many evolutionists are devout Christians"

Actually, this is bunk. Devout Christians cannot be Darwinists, and vice versa.

12 posted on 11/17/2005 10:00:54 PM PST by TheCrusader ("The frenzy of the Mohammedans has devastated the churches of God" -Pope Urban II, 1097AD)
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To: TheCrusader

"Devout Christians cannot be Darwinists, and vice versa."

Why not?


13 posted on 11/17/2005 10:02:05 PM PST by BackInBlack ("The act of defending any of the cardinal virtues has today all the exhilaration of a vice.")
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To: TheCrusader
If and when 'evolution' is openly and plainly taught with the clear disclaimer that it is an unobservable theory, impossible to recreate in a laboratory, then it will be the enemy of nothing. But since they teach it as doctrine in public schools, colleges and the media, as though the theory is not controversial in the science community, it is ipso facto an enemy of God, as are all lies that pretend to be truth.

Hi The Crusader, I like you am a sceptic - as are all good scientists. I like you am also a person of faith, and shall defend that always. I have had my struggles with the Theory of Evolution, and have always maintained that it needs to be discussed as just that - a theory.

However, I ask you this question, as I ask myself: If evolution is a false theory, why are we all waiting on pins and needles to see if the "bird flu" is going to evolve to the point where humans can pass it freely to each other, without any birds being involved at all?

14 posted on 11/17/2005 10:08:06 PM PST by wigswest
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To: Steely Tom

In heaven, Darwin is the "missing link".


15 posted on 11/17/2005 10:11:18 PM PST by fish hawk (I am only one, but I am not the only one.)
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To: wigswest

You are familiar with what is required for a scientific theory to become such are you not?


16 posted on 11/17/2005 10:11:54 PM PST by RadioAstronomer (Senior member of Darwin Central)
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To: kimosabe31; Alamo-Girl; betty boop; marron; xzins
It is in fact the evolutionist, the enemy of intelligent design, who makes himself the enemy of God.

Very good points, Kimosabe.

FWIW:

Science can only be created by those who are thoroughly imbued with the aspiration toward truth and understanding. This source of feeling, however, springs from the sphere of religion. To this there also belongs the faith in the possibility that the regulations valid for the world of existence are rational, that is, comprehensible to reason. I cannot conceive of a genuine scientist without that profound faith. The situation may be expressed by an image: science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.

Albert Einstein, Ideas and Opinions, New York, 1954 p. 46.

17 posted on 11/17/2005 10:12:12 PM PST by P-Marlowe
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To: TheCrusader
Devout Christians cannot be Darwinists, and vice versa.

What is a Darwinist?

18 posted on 11/17/2005 10:12:43 PM PST by RadioAstronomer (Senior member of Darwin Central)
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To: P-Marlowe
Very good points, Kimosabe.

Ummm... no.

19 posted on 11/17/2005 10:13:53 PM PST by RadioAstronomer (Senior member of Darwin Central)
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To: RadioAstronomer
You are familiar with what is required for a scientific theory to become such are you not?

Please, tell! :)

20 posted on 11/17/2005 10:14:35 PM PST by wigswest
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To: P-Marlowe

The only reason an evolutionist would be the enemy of intelligent design is because it flies in the face of what is normal scientific methods.


21 posted on 11/17/2005 10:15:34 PM PST by flashbunny (LOCKBOX: Where most republicans keep their gonads after they arrive in Washington D.C.)
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To: flashbunny
The only reason an evolutionist would be the enemy of intelligent design is because it flies in the face of what is normal scientific methods.

So are you saying that Einstein was not a scientist?

22 posted on 11/17/2005 10:18:30 PM PST by P-Marlowe
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To: RadioAstronomer
why, it means you must worship charles darwin instead of God.

Apparently that is what it comes down to some people - if you think theories of darwin might have merit, you worship darwin and not God, and therefore you are some kind of Godless atheist.

Never in my life could I conceive of a God that would want us to not use our minds and our God given curiosity to find out where we came from and how.

But some, when they see a gap in a theory, want to fill in that gap by quickly saying "IT WAS GOD!" instead of offering up one or scientifically based theories that may hold up or may be proven false.

What an utter waste of our God given intelligence it would be to handle all scientific inquiry like that.
23 posted on 11/17/2005 10:20:07 PM PST by flashbunny (LOCKBOX: Where most republicans keep their gonads after they arrive in Washington D.C.)
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To: P-Marlowe

"So are you saying that Einstein was not a scientist?"

Where in the HECK did you get that out of???

Seriously?

How can you get me saying 'einstein was not a scientist' out of the sentence "The only reason an evolutionist would be the enemy of intelligent design is because it flies in the face of what is normal scientific methods."

I'd like to see the leaps of logic that went into that conclusion.


24 posted on 11/17/2005 10:22:01 PM PST by flashbunny (LOCKBOX: Where most republicans keep their gonads after they arrive in Washington D.C.)
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To: flashbunny
I'd like to see the leaps of logic that went into that conclusion.

Well Einstein believed that the universe was intelligently designed. Einstein was therefore a believer in Intelligent Design.

You stated that intelligent design flies in the face of what is normal scientific methods. Therefore Einstein, who believed in intelligent design and insisted that science without religion is lame, must not have been a true scientist. He was just one of those unscientific intelligent design nutcakes.

25 posted on 11/17/2005 10:25:57 PM PST by P-Marlowe
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To: kimosabe31
First of all, neither Newton nor Einstien were evolutionists. As Christians they believed in an intelligent designer; i.e, God.

Einstein was Jewish, not Christian. ....and Krauthammer acknowledged in the article that they both believed in God. Krauthammer's central points are that A) belief in God and acknowledging the scientific validity of natural selection are not incompatible, and B) belief in God and recognizing that "intelligent design" is junk science are not incompatible.

26 posted on 11/17/2005 10:26:22 PM PST by Mr. Mojo
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To: Mr. Mojo
Krauthammer's central points are that A) belief in God and acknowledging the scientific validity of natural selection are not incompatible, and B) belief in God and recognizing that "intelligent design" is junk science are not incompatible.

Is Krauthammer a scientist? Or a theologian? Or both?

27 posted on 11/17/2005 10:29:14 PM PST by P-Marlowe
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To: P-Marlowe
Krauthammer is a medical doctor, so his scientific background is fairly extensive.

From reading his columns over time I've gleaned that he's most likely a religious man (Jewish), although I'd hesitate to call him a "theologian."

28 posted on 11/17/2005 10:35:22 PM PST by Mr. Mojo
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The bird flu virus is not evolving.
It's mutating. It's a virus that has been around for a long time and is changing slightly.
There are plenty of examples of mutation in biology which ARE observable.
Evolution is a separate matter. It is a theory.
Despite Darwin's title "Origin of the Species", no new species has been shown to originate from another.


29 posted on 11/17/2005 10:36:38 PM PST by Mazeman
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To: raj bhatia
In order to justify the farce that intelligent design is science, Kansas had to corrupt the very definition of science, dropping the phrase " natural explanations for what we observe in the world around us," thus unmistakably implying -- by fiat of definition, no less -- that the supernatural is an integral part of science. This is an insult both to religion and science.

No way I can top this. Bravo!

30 posted on 11/17/2005 10:39:59 PM PST by Aracelis
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To: kimosabe31
First of all, neither Newton nor Einstien were evolutionists. As Christians they believed in an intelligent designer; i.e, God.

Newton was a heretical Chrisitian. Einstein: not so much

Very few, possibly no evolutionists are devout Christians.

You misspoke

31 posted on 11/17/2005 10:42:03 PM PST by Oztrich Boy (Paging Nehemiah Scudder:the Crazy Years are peaking. America is ready for you.)
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To: Mr. Mojo
Krauthammer's definition of "God" may not be the same as the definition given by people who think that Godless purposeless evolution is incompatible with their theological position.

Perhaps Godless purposeless evolutionary philosophy is not incompatible with the God that he believes in, but he does not speak for all Christians or all Jews on the matter. It is not incompatible with his God, but it may be incompatible with someone else's.

32 posted on 11/17/2005 10:42:15 PM PST by P-Marlowe
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To: Mazeman

"The bird flu virus is not evolving.
It's mutating. It's a virus that has been around for a long time and is changing slightly.
There are plenty of examples of mutation in biology which ARE observable.
Evolution is a separate matter. It is a theory."

I don't think you know the first thing about evolution. Evolution occurs through a series of mutations. If a mutation is beneficial to the survival of the species, it is more likely to be passed on and propagate.

And do you know the difference between a hypothesis and a theory? A hypothesis is basically a guess that's waiting to be tested thoroughly. It becomes a theory when it's been tested numerous times and there's wide scientific acceptance of its validity. In this context, "It's just a theory" is layman's talk for "I have no idea what I'm talking about."


33 posted on 11/17/2005 10:42:25 PM PST by BackInBlack ("The act of defending any of the cardinal virtues has today all the exhilaration of a vice.")
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To: RadioAstronomer

No, it says that God is a geometer. It is not a "god of the gaps" theory. Rather it says that the Darwinism mechanism does not properly represent the patterns we see. Certainly it is true if we restrict ourselves to what Darwin said. The neo-darwinists have spliced that into a broader theory.


34 posted on 11/17/2005 10:42:37 PM PST by RobbyS ( CHIRHO)
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To: P-Marlowe

Thank you so much for the ping and the great excerpt!


35 posted on 11/17/2005 10:43:31 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: raj bhatia

What is with this ridculous and indeed blasphemous idea that explaning something through natural phenomena is to preclude any involvement by God? This "God of the gaps" theory suggests that God has nothing to do with the natural functioning of things, only the unnatural functioning of things. I wonder how people who claim to be religious can put their faith in such a limited God.


36 posted on 11/17/2005 10:48:29 PM PST by BackInBlack ("The act of defending any of the cardinal virtues has today all the exhilaration of a vice.")
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To: P-Marlowe

" Well Einstein believed that the universe was intelligently designed. Einstein was therefore a believer in Intelligent Design."

Ugh.

Einstein believed the laws of the universe were intelligently designed.

If he saw what currently passed as the theory of "intelligent design", he would have either shook his head in digust or laughed at it. And in this case it refers to EVOLUTION, not the creation of the universe (see how this discussion started before you changed the subject to the universe). To repeat: the 'intelligent design' aspect relates to evolution, since it was a discussion about darwinism vs intelligent design. NOT the creation of the universe.

So try staying on subject, ok?

You know what else einstein said? It's one of my favorite quotes:

" If I have seen farther than others, it is because I was standing on the shoulders of giants."

Meaning he was able to do what he did because other people before him asked questions and did the work.

Now go back to the world before einstein - to the time of isaac newton. Imagine if he did basically what the intelligent design advocates wanted to do: explain the "gaps" by them being the hand of God, and not messing with any theories that might run contrary to the bible.

Why did the apple fall? Will of God.

Momentum? Angular Momentum? The light spectrum? All "wills of God", and therefore no reason to delve any further.

When we fail to ask question, we fail to take the opportunity to learn. That's why passing ID off as a scienctific theory is bad. Saying "Well, God did this", either when you can't explain something, or when you're afraid the other answer might conflict with your strict biblical view of the world, destroys great opportunities to ask questions and to learn.

Krauthammer said it: I.D. is nice for a theology class, but it doesn't belong in a science class.


37 posted on 11/17/2005 10:49:23 PM PST by flashbunny (LOCKBOX: Where most republicans keep their gonads after they arrive in Washington D.C.)
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"A "theory" that violates the most basic requirement of anything pretending to be science -- that it be empirically disprovable."

Krauthammer conveniently uses the negative here. Science's role, traditionally, has been to prove an assumption. Through reproducable experiment or direct observation. You develop a "theory" then test it one way or another.
Darwinism has failed here. So now, according to Krauthammer, our role is to "disprove" something, be it Darwinism or ID.


38 posted on 11/17/2005 10:49:28 PM PST by Mazeman
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To: Mazeman
Don't be a dope; get a dictionary.

Mutation - any change in the DNA of an organism...beneficial mutations may increase in the population due to natural selection...

Evolution - the gradual process of genetic change that occurs in populations of organisms...

excerpted from the "Dictionary of Modern Biology", 1997, ISBN 0-8120-9516-2

Natural Selection = Evolution

39 posted on 11/17/2005 10:53:35 PM PST by Aracelis
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To: BackInBlack

"I don't think you know the first thing about evolution. Evolution occurs through a series of mutations. If a mutation is beneficial to the survival of the species, it is more likely to be passed on and propagate."

Oh I know a little about evolution.
Mutations occur and can be observed. They happen on a cellular level all the time. The tumor in a cancer patient is still human tissue.
Evolution is the creation of new species. This has not been proven


40 posted on 11/17/2005 10:54:21 PM PST by Mazeman
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To: Oztrich Boy
Newton was a heretical Chrisitian. Einstein: not so much

Well, the second part of your statement is factual, for Einstein was raised a JEW.

41 posted on 11/17/2005 10:55:47 PM PST by Aracelis
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To: kimosabe31
First of all, neither Newton nor Einstien were evolutionists. As Christians they believed in an intelligent designer; i.e, God.

Have IQs dropped suddenly??? Einstein was raised Jewish.

42 posted on 11/17/2005 10:57:49 PM PST by Aracelis
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To: Mazeman

"You develop a "theory" then test it one way or another. "

That's simply wrong. A hypothesis is what you test one way or the other; a theory is what happens what that hypothesis has been tested repeatedly and widely accepted by scientists as true.


43 posted on 11/17/2005 10:59:22 PM PST by BackInBlack ("The act of defending any of the cardinal virtues has today all the exhilaration of a vice.")
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To: Mazeman

"Evolution is the creation of new species. This has not been proven"

Have you ever read a book explaining evolution and marshalling the evidence for it? You really don't have a clue!


44 posted on 11/17/2005 11:00:37 PM PST by BackInBlack ("The act of defending any of the cardinal virtues has today all the exhilaration of a vice.")
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To: Aracelis

"Don't be a dope; get a dictionary.

Mutation - any change in the DNA of an organism...beneficial mutations may increase in the population due to natural selection...

Evolution - the gradual process of genetic change that occurs in populations of organisms..."

I'm not sure what this proves. I agree with both definitions, sort of. These defintions, though, inject a hint of Darwinism, but I'll grant them.
I agree DNA changes occur (mutation).
I'll agree that the above is a definition of evolution.
Does the dictionary tell you that one results in the other?
And could you look up species while you're at it?


45 posted on 11/17/2005 11:03:08 PM PST by Mazeman
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To: Mazeman
I agree with both definitions, sort of. These defintions, though, inject a hint of Darwinism

I'm always amazed at those who will not see what is right in front of their noses. Both definitions "inject a hint of Darwinism" because one leads to the other. Beneficial mutations are preserved in populations. Over considerable time, an entirely new organism may emerge that is more biologically "fit" than its predecessor.

And no, I will not look up "species" for you. Do a Google search...or write your own darned dictionary, as you seem to know everything anyway.

46 posted on 11/17/2005 11:08:50 PM PST by Aracelis
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To: BackInBlack

"A hypothesis is what you test one way or the other; a theory is what happens what that hypothesis has been tested repeatedly and widely accepted by scientists as true."

You don't say whether these repeated tests need to have proven anything.
Regarding evolution, they certainly haven't proven the creation of any new species.
So in order to go from hypothesis to theory, you need a wide acceptance of scientists, not actual proof. So there's a political element?


47 posted on 11/17/2005 11:09:09 PM PST by Mazeman
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To: TheCrusader
If and when 'evolution' is openly and plainly taught with the clear disclaimer that it is an unobservable theory, impossible to recreate in a laboratory, then it will be the enemy of nothing. But since they teach it as doctrine in public schools, colleges and the media, as though the theory is not controversial in the science community, it is ipso facto an enemy of God, as are all lies that pretend to be truth.

The theory of evolution is a theory, that is,

Theory: a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world; an organized system of accepted knowledge that applies in a variety of circumstances to explain a specific set of phenomena; "theories can incorporate facts and laws and tested hypotheses"; "true in fact and theory"

It is not unobservable theory, as there is no such thing. There are facts and observations (also known as data; see the primate skulls, below, for some excellent, and very photogenic, examples). There are also hypotheses and theories. Observations and facts lead to hypotheses which can be tested. With repeated testing, and confirmation at each test, you can end up with a well-supported theory. That is what the theory of evolution is, a well-supported theory. It has withstood 150 years of testing, including testing by fields of investigation which did not even exist 150 years ago.

"When a theory is supported by as much evidence as evolution, it is held with a very high degree of confidence" [from an NSF abstract, cited in RadioAstronomers's post #27 on another thread].

You, on the other hand, seem to be arguing from:

Belief: any cognitive content (perception) held as true; religious faith

Dogma: a religious doctrine that is proclaimed as true without proof

From your posts, it would seem that you are promoting a specific religious belief, and hoping to include it in science classes--where it clearly does not belong.

Finally, you write "[evolution] is ipso facto an enemy of God, as are all lies that pretend to be truth."

I am sure you will not agree with this, but I would put ID, not evolution, in this category. ID is creation science with the serial numbers filed off, hoping nobody will notice. Although a form of ID has been around for millennia, the current push for ID was developed in the late 1980s when CS was removed from schools by a Supreme Court decision. It is CS flying under the radar, attempting to pass as science. It is promulgated by political means, not by scientific means, and the recent court case in Dover exposed some of the lies behind ID. From all of this, what am I to think, other than that ID is inherently dishonest?

(At least CS is honest about what it believes.)


Now, the data I promised (enjoy--these are some beautiful specimens):

Figure 1.4.4. Fossil hominid skulls. Some of the figures have been modified for ease of comparison (only left-right mirroring or removal of a jawbone). (Images © 2000 Smithsonian Institution.)


48 posted on 11/17/2005 11:17:49 PM PST by Coyoteman (I love the sound of beta decay in the morning!)
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To: Aracelis

"I'm always amazed at those who will not see what is right in front of their noses. Both definitions "inject a hint of Darwinism" because one leads to the other."

Right in front of our noses? Why do archeologists keep digging for bones and missing links if it's all so self-evident?
"One leads to another"? That's the whole leap in assumption that we're arguing about. I guess I need to study Webster's more thoroughly for a more in-depth analysis of this controversy.


49 posted on 11/17/2005 11:17:51 PM PST by Mazeman
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To: Mazeman

"This has not been proven"

That's why it's called the THEORY of evolution.

Not the "LAW" of evolution.


50 posted on 11/17/2005 11:20:21 PM PST by flashbunny (LOCKBOX: Where most republicans keep their gonads after they arrive in Washington D.C.)
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