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1 posted on 11/17/2005 9:25:39 PM PST by raj bhatia
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To: raj bhatia; PatrickHenry
"Let's be clear. Intelligent design may be interesting as theology, but as science it is a fraud. It is a self-enclosed, tautological "theory" whose only holding is that when there are gaps in some area of scientific knowledge -- in this case, evolution -- they are to be filled by God."

Well said IMHO.

2 posted on 11/17/2005 9:31:39 PM PST by RadioAstronomer (Senior member of Darwin Central)
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To: raj bhatia

Excellent article.


4 posted on 11/17/2005 9:36:28 PM PST by billybudd
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To: raj bhatia
I believe that if I'm lucky enough to get to heaven I'll be allowed to know more about how G-d designed the human species, and that that explanation will perfectly reconcile both the words in the Bible and the theory of natural selection. Once it is revealed, the truth will cause men to say "of course, why didn't I see it sooner."
5 posted on 11/17/2005 9:38:34 PM PST by Steely Tom (Fortunately, the Bill of Rights doesn't include the word 'is'.)
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To: raj bhatia

Jesus paid your sin debt to the Father on the cross. He takes your sins, you take His righteousness. Why go to hell? Why? Jesus loves you! Open your hearts!

"...a high-tech factory, complete with artificial languages and decoding systems; central memory banks that store and retrieve impressive amounts of information; precision control systems that regulate the automatic assembly of components; proof-reading and quality control mechanisms that safeguard against errors; assembly systems that use principles of prefabrication and modular construction; and a complete replication system that allows the organism to duplicate itself at bewildering speeds."


7 posted on 11/17/2005 9:54:27 PM PST by ROTB (Christianity is like Fight Club, except 1) you're SUPPOSED to talk about it 2) You fight EVERY night)
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To: raj bhatia
The punch line: "How ridiculous to make evolution the enemy of God.

I usually agree with Krauthammer 1000 percent. But I think he's gotten things a little ass backwards here. First of all, neither Newton nor Einstien were evolutionists. As Christians they believed in an intelligent designer; i.e, God. Very few, possibly no evolutionists are devout Christians. It is in fact the evolutionist, the enemy of intelligent design, who makes himself the enemy of God.

8 posted on 11/17/2005 9:55:04 PM PST by kimosabe31
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To: raj bhatia

I've thought from the beginning of this debate, that those of faith who need to have the Science Seal of Approval on their beliefs are so denigrating the very idea of faith.

Science is science. I'm an avid naturalist.

Faith is faith. I'm a firm believer, and lover of God (because He loved me first).

I don't need to have some validation from the scientific community to confirm my relationship with God.

God gave us many things. Inquiring minds, a vast history, and complex biologies are just a few of his gifts.

Many religious people feel that their faith is denigrated by scientists, as indeed it is many times; trying to shoehorn one's beliefs into a scientific framework will not assuage critics, however, and only serves to belittle the faith which one is trying to forward.


9 posted on 11/17/2005 9:55:21 PM PST by wigswest
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To: raj bhatia
""How ridiculous to make evolution the enemy of God."

I find it interesting that he claims someone has made the theory of evolution the 'enemy of God'. Since Darwinism is the enemy of faith and the enemy of truth, it makes itself the inherent the enemy of God.

If and when 'evolution' is openly and plainly taught with the clear disclaimer that it is an unobservable theory, impossible to recreate in a laboratory, then it will be the enemy of nothing. But since they teach it as doctrine in public schools, colleges and the media, as though the theory is not controversial in the science community, it is ipso facto an enemy of God, as are all lies that pretend to be truth.

11 posted on 11/17/2005 9:58:26 PM PST by TheCrusader ("The frenzy of the Mohammedans has devastated the churches of God" -Pope Urban II, 1097AD)
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To: raj bhatia
In order to justify the farce that intelligent design is science, Kansas had to corrupt the very definition of science, dropping the phrase " natural explanations for what we observe in the world around us," thus unmistakably implying -- by fiat of definition, no less -- that the supernatural is an integral part of science. This is an insult both to religion and science.

No way I can top this. Bravo!

30 posted on 11/17/2005 10:39:59 PM PST by Aracelis
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To: raj bhatia

What is with this ridculous and indeed blasphemous idea that explaning something through natural phenomena is to preclude any involvement by God? This "God of the gaps" theory suggests that God has nothing to do with the natural functioning of things, only the unnatural functioning of things. I wonder how people who claim to be religious can put their faith in such a limited God.


36 posted on 11/17/2005 10:48:29 PM PST by BackInBlack ("The act of defending any of the cardinal virtues has today all the exhilaration of a vice.")
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To: raj bhatia

My words exactly!

I've always said...God created evolution.


:O)

P


52 posted on 11/17/2005 11:22:34 PM PST by papasmurf (I CAN tell the future, just give me a few years.)
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To: raj bhatia
There are different kinds of junk science. There are flavors of junk science which are relatively harmless and benign such as some of the diets you read about, and then again there are flavors of junk science which are massively harmful and pernicious. The later category includes things like banning DDT, the idea that human activity is causing global warming, and then the prize of them all, evolution(ism).

Evolution was the most major philosophical cornerstone of naziism, communism, all the eugenics programs of the 19'th and 20'th centuries, and any number of other evils.

Newt Gingrich put the problem very succinctly in noting that the question of whether a man views his neighbor as a fellow child of God or as a meat byproduct of random processes simply has to affect human relationships.

Then again, the famous evolutionist Jeffrey Dahmer put it thus:

‘If a person doesn’t think there is a God to be accountable to, then—then what’s the point of trying to modify your behaviour to keep it within acceptable ranges? That’s how I thought anyway. I always believed the theory of evolution as truth, that we all just came from the slime. When we, when we died, you know, that was it, there is nothing…’

Jeffrey Dahmer, in an interview with Stone Phillips, Dateline NBC, Nov. 29, 1994.

The most major treatment of the problem is still probably Sir Arthur Keith's "Evolution and Ethics".

From Sir Srthur Keith's "Evolution and Ethics:

Chapter 3

The Behavior of Germany Considered from an Evolutionary Point of View in 1942

VISITORS TO GERMANY IN 1934 FOUND AN emotional storm sweeping through masses of the people, particularly the more educated. The movement had much in common with a religious revival. The preacher in this case was Adolf Hitler; his doctrine was, and is, tribalism; he had stirred in the emotional depths of the German people those long-dormant tribal feelings which find release and relief in mutual service; men and women who had been leading selfish lives or were drifting aimlessly were given a new purpose in life: service to their country the Third Reich. It is worth noting that Hitler uses a double designation for his tribal doctrine National Socialism: Socialism standing for the good side of the tribal spirit (that which works within the Reich); aud Nationalism for the ethically vicious part, which dominates policy at and outside the German frontiers.

The leader of Germany is an evolutionist not only in theory, but, as millions know to their cost, in the rigor of its practice. For him the national "front" of Europe is also the evolutionary "front"; he regards himself, and is regarded, as the incarnation of the will of Germany, the purpose of that will being to guide the evolutionary destiny of its people. He has brought into

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modern life the tribal and evolutionary mentality of prehistoric times. Hitler has confronted the statesmen of the world with an evolutionary problem of an unprecedented magnitude. What is the world to do with a united aggressive tribe numbering eighty millions!

We must not lose sight of the purpose of our visit to Germany; it was to see how far modern evolutionary practice can provide us with a scientific basis for ethical or moral behavior. As a source of information concerning Hitler's evolutionary and ethical doctrines I have before me Mein Kampf, extracts from The Times covering German affairs during the last twenty years, and the monthly journal R.F.C. (Racio Political Foreign Correspondenee), published by the German Bureau for Human Betterment and Eugenics and circulated by that bureau for the enlightenment of anthropologists living abroad. In the number of that journal for July 1937, there appears in English the text of a speech given by the German Fuhrer on January 30, 1937, in reply to a statement made by Mr. Anthony Eden that "the German race theory" stood in the way of a common discussion of European problems. Hitler maintained his theory would have an opposite effect; "it will bring about a real understanding for the first time." "It is not for men," said the Fuhrer, "to discuss the question of why Providence created different races, but rather to recognize that it punishes those who disregard its work of creation." I may remark incidentally that in this passage, as in many others, the German Fuhrer, like Bishop Barnes and many of our more intellectual clergy, regards evolution as God's mode of creation. God having created races, it is therefore "the noblest and most sacred duty for each racial species of mankind to preserve the purity of the blood which God has given it." Here we have expounded the perfectly sound doctrine of evolutionary isolation; even as an ethical doctrine it should not be condemned. No German must be guilty of the "greatest racial sin" that of bringing the fruits of hybridity into the world. The reproductive "genes" which circulate within the frontiers of Germany must be kept uncontaminated, so that they may work out the racial destiny of the German people without impediment. Hitler is also a eugenist. Germans who suffer from

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hereditable imperfections of mind or of body must be rendered infertile, so that "the strong may not be plagued by the weak." Sir Francis Galton, the founder of eugenics, taught a somewhat similar evolutionary doctrine namely, that if our nation was to prosper we must give encouragement to the strong rather than to the weak; a saving which may be justified by evolution, but not by ethics as recognized and practiced by civilized peoples. The liberties of German women are to be sacrificed; they must devote their activities to their households, especially to the sacred duty of raising succeeding generations. The birth rate was stimulated by bounties and subsidies so that the German tribe might grow in numbers and in strength. In all these matters the Nazi doctrine is evolutionist.

Hitler has sought on every occasion and in every way to heighten the national consciousness of the German people or, what is the same thing, to make them racially conscious; to give them unity of spirit and unity of purpose. Neighborly approaches of adjacent nations are and were repelled; the German people were deliberately isolated. Cosmopolitanism, liberality of opinion, affectation of foreign manners and dress were unsparingly condemned. The old tribal bonds (love of the Fatherland, feeling of mutual kinship), the bonds of "soil and blood," became "the main plank in the National Social program." "Germany was for the Germans" was another plank. Foreign policy was "good or bad according to its beneficial or harmful effects on the German folk now or hereafter." "Charity and humility are only for home consumption" a statement in which Hitler gives an exact expression of the law which limits sympathy to its tribe. "Humanitarianism is an evil . . . a creeping poison." "The most cruel methods are humane if they give a speedy victory" is Hitler's echo of a maxim attributed to Moltke. Such are the ways of evolution when applied to human affairs.

I have said nothing about the methods employed by the Nazi leaders to secure tribal unity in Germany methods of brutal compulsion, bloody force, and the concentration camp. Such methods cannot be brought within even a Machiavellian system of ethics, and yet may be justified by their evolutionary result.

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Even in that result we may harbor a doubt: can unity obtained by such methods be relied on to endure?

There are other aspects of Nazi policy which raise points which may be legitimate subjects of ethical debate. In recent years British men of science have debated this ethical problem: an important discovery having been made a new poison gas, for example is it not the duty of the discoverer to suppress it if there is a possibility of its being used for an evil purpose? My personal conviction is that science is concerned wholly with truth, not with ethics. A man of science is responsible for the accuracy of his observations and of his inferences, not for the results which may follow therefrom. Under no circumstances should the truth be suppressed; yet suppression and distortion of the truth is a deliberate part of Nazi policy. Every anthropologist in Germany, be he German or Jew, was and is silenced in Nazi Germany unless the Hitlerian racial doctrine is accepted without any reservation whatsoever. Authors, artists, preachers, and editors are undone if they stray beyond the limits of the National Socialist tether. Individual liberty of thought and of its expression is completely suppressed. An effective tribal unity is thus attained at the expense of truth. And yet has not the Church in past times persecuted science just in this Hitlerian way? There was a time, and not so long ago, when it was dangerous for a biologist to harbor a thought that clashed in any way with the Mosaic theory of creation.

No aspect of Hitler's policy proclaims the antagonism between evolution and ethics so forcibly as his treatment of the Jewish people in Germany. So strong are the feelings roused that it is difficult for even science to approach the issues so raised with an unclouded judgment. Ethically the Hitlerian treatment of the Jews stands condemned out of hand. Hitler is cruel, but I do not think that his policy can be explained by attributing it to a mere satisfaction of a lust, or to a search for a scapegoat on which Germany can wreak her wrath for the ills which followed her defeat of 1918. The Church in Spain subjected the Jews to the cruelty of the Inquisition, but no one ever sought to explain the Church's behavior by suggesting that she had a

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lust for cruelty which had to be satisfied. The Church adopted the Inquisition as a policy; it was a means of securing unity of mind in her flock. Hitler is an uncompromising evolutionist, and we must seek for an evolutionary explanation if we are to understand his actions. When the Huguenots fled to Germany they mingled their "genes" with those of their host and disappeared as an entity. The Jews are made of other stuff: for two thousand years, living amid European communities, they have maintained their identity; it is an article of their creed, as it is of Hitler's, to breed true. They, too, practice an evolutionary doctrine. Is it possible for two peoples living within the same frontiers, dwelling side by side, to work out harmoniously their separate evolutionary destinies? Apparently Hitler believes this to be impossible; we in Britain and in America believe it to be not only possible, but also profitable.

It must not be thought that in seeking to explain Hitler's actions I am seeking to justify them. The opposite is the case. I have made this brief survey of public policy in modern Germany with a definite object: to show that Dr. Waddington is in error when he seeks to place ethics on a scientific basis by a knowledge of evolutionary tendencies and practice.

Chapter 4

Human Life: Its Purpose or Ultimate End

IN THE COURSE OF GATHERING INFORMATION concerning man's morality and the part it has played and is playing in his evolution, I found it necessary to provide space for slips which were labeled "Life: Its Ultimate and Proximate Purposes." Only those who have devoted some special attention to this matter are aware of the multitude of reasons given for the appearance of man on earth. Here I shall touch on only a few of them; to deal with all would require a big book. The reader may exclaim: Why deal with any of them! What has ultimate purpose got to do with ethics and evolution! Let a man with a clearer head and a nimbler pen than mine reply. He is Edward Carpenter, who wrote Civilization: Its Cause and Cure (1889).

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It is from the sixteenth edition (1923) I am to quote, p. 249:

If we have decided what the final purpose or Life of Man is, then we may say that what is good for that purpose is finally "good" and what is bad for that purpose is finally "evil."

If the final purpose of our existence is that which has been and is being worked out under the discipline of evolutionary law, then, although we are quite unconscious of the end result, we ought, as Dr. Waddington has urged, to help on "that which tends to promote the ultimate course of evolution." If we do so, then we have to abandon the hope of ever attaining a universal system of ethics; for, as we have just seen, the ways of national evolution, both in the past and in the present, are cruel, brutal, ruthless, and without mercy. Dr. Waddington has not grasped the implications of Nature's method of evolution, for in his summing up (Nature, 1941, 150, p. 535) he writes "that the ethical principles formulated by Christ . . . are those which have tended towards the further evolution of mankind, and that they will continue to do so." Here a question of the highest interest is raised: the relationship which exists between evolution and Christianity; so important, it seems to me, that I shall devote to it a separate chapter. Meantime let me say that the conclusion I have come to is this: the law of Christ is incompatible with the law of evolution as far as the law of evolution has worked hitherto. Nay, the two laws are at war with each other; the law of Christ can never prevail until the law of evolution is destroyed. Clearly the form of evolution which Dr. Waddington has in mind is not that which has hitherto prevailed; what he has in mind is a man made system of evolution. In brief, instead of seeking ethical guidance from evolution, he now proposes to impose a system of ethics on evolution and so bring humanity ultimately to a safe and final anchorage in a Christian haven.

69 posted on 11/18/2005 3:25:36 AM PST by anthraciterabbit
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To: raj bhatia
Which brings us to Dover, Pa., Pat Robertson, the Kansas State Board of Education, and a fight over evolution that is so anachronistic and retrograde as to be a national embarrassment.

I love Krauthammer.....

78 posted on 11/18/2005 5:52:09 AM PST by narby (Hillary! The Wicked Witch of the Left)
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To: raj bhatia

This thread, like creatures suffering from inbreeding, has grown sterile.


104 posted on 11/18/2005 7:56:23 AM PST by starbase (One singular sensation.)
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To: raj bhatia
Evolution'ism = Dialectic material scientific sub-Marxism..
ID'ism = Agnostic and Gnostic Creativism..
Creativism = Faith in God.. you know, the real one..
157 posted on 11/18/2005 10:49:01 AM PST by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole..)
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To: raj bhatia
I was in grade school when cosmic background radiation was detected. The after echos of the big bang theory sounded the deathknell of God and religion.

I was an alter boy and one of my fellow alter boys was a sounding board for these scientific stories. John had a calling and wore his simple robes in priestly fashion. His answer to my query about the Big bang was quite simple. "In bible study we learned that God is all powerful and all forgiving. So the Big Bang was a mere snap of the fingers for him. As for evolution, well we are mortals and cannot really comprehend his ways. Faith, Good Deeds and a Christian Life are hard enough. Leave the details to him"

214 posted on 11/20/2005 7:26:50 PM PST by Young Werther
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