Posted on 11/19/2005 11:06:05 AM PST by Eaglewatcher
Yes you are, you are defending the IRS by going against movements to get rid of the IRS like FairtaxIf pointing out the fallacies of the Fairtax is going against it, your problem is the Fairtax, not me.
Actually you didn't provide any information to me from the AFT; for or against Fairtax.Then what's your problem?
Of course they do Lewis but the drug dealer who sells the drugs sure as hell doesn't pay income, payroll, or medicare taxes now does he?
Your pitiful attempts at obfuscation are far to transparent my friend and most everyone sees right through them!
The majority of the taxes in the "embedded taxes" in the costs of goods and services is in the form of payroll taxes and federal income taxes paid by the employer on the workers behalf. There is also the FICA match paid by the employer (7.65%). A small fraction of the taxes are corporate income taxes and state/local income taxes.
Re: compliance, as a small business owner (not tax related) I don't believe the savings will be that great. Most functions of accounting will still be required, and it will still be a major job for businesses to comply with getting their FariTax rebates on everything that they buy for business and making same audit-proof from the new HappyTax compliance center gestapos whom I believe will be every bit as bad as the IRS.
No I certianly am not! You are simply engaging in the same sort of obfusaction that your friends attempt here!
The costs imposed by the tax system, and included in prices for the most part, are NOT the same as those taxes that folks who earn their incomes by legitimate means pay and YOU damned well know that!
Do you understand that the FairTax models claim that there are 23% average "embedded taxes" in everything we purchase at retail, and their plan is just moving these embedded taxes out into the open where they can plainly be seen?
So, by this claim the drug dealer is already paying the FairTax now when he buys goods and services, it is just hidden in the price at present.
It is not that hard to understand. And explaining this is only obfuscation for someone who is so biased in favor of this boondoggle plan that they no longer see straight.
The illegal transactions made by the drug dealer will remain tax-free as they are now.
They are exactly the same taxes that are included in the prices. And that is obvious to anyone with any sense.
You are hopeless confused, I'd suggest that you take up a less intellectually demanding pastime than tax reform debates. There are several good football games on right now.
They are NOT the same taxes and costs as anyone with a brain can clearly see.
It is YOU my friend who is blinded by your bias!
Completely wrong, Rob. As wrong as your misrepresentations about Jorgenson.
Those in the illegal economy pay a very small amount amount of income tax with the things they buy presently - and certainly conting like 20% or more. On a $100 purchase at present, the illegal spender will only be paying what amounts to the income tax on the profits of the seller which would amount to $15, say, if seller has a respectable margin. This profit of $15 would then (at a 25% tax rate) yield $15 x 0.25 = $3.75 rather than the $23 it would yield under the FairTax at its presently stated rate.
Should the FairTax rate drop to the 19-20% tax inclusive rate that it might presently be, that would still be masssively more that the illegal spender pays under the income tax.
Any flat tax taxation of illegal spending (the spending of illegally gained money under any income based tax system) would still only yield a small amount of revenue presently as shown in #68.
See #68, Looey. You're quite wrong.
Of course they do Lewis but the drug dealer who sells the drugs sure as hell doesn't pay income, payroll, or medicare taxes now does he?No and he won't collect and remit sales taxes from the purchasers tax free money on the dealers drug sales either will he?
Why don't you be honest and tell us what really bothers you is the fact we can point out your claim of the embedded taxes they pay in every purchase now and you can't honestly say they don't pay ANY taxes....
The tangled web you weave....
Faulty chain of reasoning. See post #68 for a more realistic example of what is actually paid by illegal spending.
Glad to see YOU'RE not using "name-calling" and "perjoratives" Rob.
No, Rob, that's your misinterpretation of what was being "pushed" (and even this word you is intended to be pejorative so stop being such a hypocrite).
But not all those taxes a federal taxes.
compliance, as a small business owner (not tax related) I don't believe the savings will be that great. Most functions of accounting will still be required,
You only have to account on the business side and if you already acount for sales tax, you only have to change the percentage in the figures with Fairtax.
and it will still be a major job for businesses to comply with getting their FariTax rebates on everything that they buy for business and making same audit-proof from the new HappyTax compliance center gestapos whom I believe will be every bit as bad as the IRS.
This has been repeated, over and over and over. With Fairtax, tax collection takes place at the state level, not the federal level. There will be NO HappyTax compliance center gestapos with Fairtax.
And YOU'RE the typical SQL troll ... always trying to find something - anything - to attack about the FairTax or anyone supporting it and NEVER offering any alternative tax plan.
That's precisely how you defend the Status Quo - by attacking anything else but never offering an alternative.
Haven't done that. You haven't even given me any examples.
At least RobFromGa is giving examples of what he is talking about. You are not.
Paul: Actually you didn't provide any information to me from the AFT; for or against Fairtax.
lewislynn: Then what's your problem?
You not providing information to back up you claims is your problem not mine.
Incorrect, Rob. The Payroll/withholding will still be part of the costs to business just as they were since the gross wages will remain the same and prices will not change because of that.
Busainess income taxes, however (not just corporate), are clearly cascading, embedded taxes that help raise prices of all things. It is these taxes primarily that will cause prices to decrease. Your statement that this is a "small fraction" if off target since as has been shown many times these hidden taxes have the leeway to reduces prices a good bit. None of you SQLers like to admit it, but it's true. You just can't admit it since it destroys your arguments.
"... for businesses to comply with getting their FariTax rebates on everything that they buy for business ..."
The FairTax provides the primary mechanism for businesses to use their resale certification to not have to pay the tax on resale items with no rebate effort required (and the seller is protected) when it says:
`(1) received in good faith, and retains on file for the period set forth in section 509, a copy of a registration certificate from the purchaser, and `(2) did not, at the time of sale, have reasonable cause to believe that the buyer was not registered pursuant to section 502. ""`(d) Seller Relieved of Liability in Certain Cases- In the case of any taxable property or service which is sold untaxed pursuant to section 102(a), the seller shall be relieved of the duty to collect and remit the tax imposed under section 101 on such purchase if the seller--
So, you see, your nightmare scenario won't come to pass nor is an end consumer required to keep his recipts for an audit of any sort - merely required to receive them from the seller. From there on it is the seller who is responsible to the state sales tax authority. Your fearmongering is out of order.
Wrong-O, Rob.
Any portion of income tax paid by the illegal purchaser is far, far less than either the embedded tax amount (whatever that might be) or the amount the seller pays in income tax and only paid on the portion represented by the seller's profits.
This amount is far, far less than the FairTax amount - which raises 23% (present bill) of the amount of each purchase and not some small fraction of that from the profit portion of the sale. This has been clearly shown many times. Please stop the misrepresentations.
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